Merseyrail legacy fleet updates (Class 507/508)

[507020]

The decline in capacity affected the Wirral Line more than the Northern in the 1991-94 period, hence my mentioning it. The Ormskirk line did lose at least one of its six car workings each peak time in this period too: it used to have four out of five formations paired. Otherwise, the Northern Line kept its six cars and 7/8 minute Southport line peak service. I don't know the highest number of required 507/8s, but it can't have been much more than 60.

When the Link and Loop tunnels opened in 1977, the Wirral Line (19,000 passengers travelling into Liverpool Central on the average weekday) was busier than the Northern Line (14,000). This was partly due to the inconvenient location of Liverpool Exchange for the shopping and nightlife areas of town, hampering off-peak travel. The Northern Line also only had two electrified routes at the time, the Southport and Ormskirk branches, although the Southport line was the most heavily used individual route on either side of the Mersey - and still is.

Since then, there has been a complete switch around: the Northern Line overtook the Wirral in 1983 and the gap has widened since then leaving the Northern Line much the busier of the two. Reasons include the opening of Liverpool Central's Northern Line platform and the incorporation of the Kirkby and Hunts Cross routes, as well as a gradual decline in Wirral Line patronage. In 1987, the average weekday passenger numbers were 23,000 on the Northern Line and 19,000 on the Wirral.

The Wirral Line is only more frequent between Liverpool and Hooton, where the six trains per hour service is overkill off-peak, no question. To go from 27 trains per hour in peak times in 1977, all six car, to 14 tph with no six cars at all in 2022 is an enormous decline.

Southport has of course now lost 7/8 minute frequencies and there has been a further reduction in 6 car workings since that period. Has there been an expectation of increased availability, first over the 502 & 503 fleets (with the 502s spending much of their time away at Horwich works for example) and then throughout the life of the 507/508 fleet, especially now with units going for scrap and not always intentionally?

There wasn’t really any such thing as the Northern Line prior to the opening of what had previously been Liverpool Central’s Wirral Line platform to the electric services of Liverpool Exchange and new one from Kirkby to Garston, later being extended to Hunts Cross. The Southport service wasn’t even self contained with the hourly Southport - Lime Street DMU still running at that point and Liverpool Exchange had just lost the direct services Rochdale via Bury and the WCML from Preston.

What I want to know is when it is so widely admitted that the Northern Line carries many more passengers than the Wirral Line, why are there 6tph to Hooton and 8tph to Birkenhead North but no more than 4tph anywhere on the Northern line except 12tph to Sandhills and 8tph to Kirkdale which isn’t exactly useful? I don’t disagree with the high frequency service on the Wirral Line, being a small isolated network it must be a good way to encourage patronage, but there would definitely be some noticeable benefit to running additional peak services to Hall Road, Aintree (perhaps via the North Mersey Branch and not Kirkdale) or even Kirkby judging by how busy they can be, especially when passengers travelling all the way to Southport have to stand half the way. The other option would be an express. Obviously this would require more units though.

What on earth were the 27tph on the Wirral Line in 1977? They couldn’t possibly have reversed all of those at Central. It’s not even possible to reverse 12tph now, with Southport services turning at Sandhills this week when the route to Hunts Cross was unavailable. The other question is why would they need a grade separated junction at Hamilton Square to run 14tph if a flat junction could manage 27tph?

 

[py_megapixel]

Bus deregulation also gave places like New Ferry, Bromborough, Heswall and Greasby direct buses to Liverpool city centre, which they hadn’t had before - previously the Wirral commuter would have taken a bus to Hamilton Square for the train or Woodside/Seacombe for the ferry.

That's rather bad for transport planning - local buses to a station then trains into the city is actually quite a good way of running things.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's rather bad for transport planning - local buses to a station then trains into the city is actually quite a good way of running things.

same sort of thing undermined Newcastle Metro planned system / network from very soon after it opened I think I read.

 

[prod_pep]

Southport has of course now lost 7/8 minute frequencies and there has been a further reduction in 6 car workings since that period. Has there been an expectation of increased availability, first over the 502 & 503 fleets (with the 502s spending much of their time away at Horwich works for example) and then throughout the life of the 507/508 fleet, especially now with units going for scrap and not always intentionally?

There wasn’t really any such thing as the Northern Line prior to the opening of what had previously been Liverpool Central’s Wirral Line platform to the electric services of Liverpool Exchange and new one from Kirkby to Garston, later being extended to Hunts Cross. The Southport service wasn’t even self contained with the hourly Southport - Lime Street DMU still running at that point and Liverpool Exchange had just lost the direct services Rochdale via Bury and the WCML from Preston.

What I want to know is when it is so widely admitted that the Northern Line carries many more passengers than the Wirral Line, why are there 6tph to Hooton and 8tph to Birkenhead North but no more than 4tph anywhere on the Northern line except 12tph to Sandhills and 8tph to Kirkdale which isn’t exactly useful? I don’t disagree with the high frequency service on the Wirral Line, being a small isolated network it must be a good way to encourage patronage, but there would definitely be some noticeable benefit to running additional peak services to Hall Road, Aintree (perhaps via the North Mersey Branch and not Kirkdale) or even Kirkby judging by how busy they can be, especially when passengers travelling all the way to Southport have to stand half the way. The other option would be an express. Obviously this would require more units though.

What on earth were the 27tph on the Wirral Line in 1977? They couldn’t possibly have reversed all of those at Central. It’s not even possible to reverse 12tph now, with Southport services turning at Sandhills this week when the route to Hunts Cross was unavailable. The other question is why would they need a grade separated junction at Hamilton Square to run 14tph if a flat junction could manage 27tph?

The loss of the 7/8 minute peak Southport service to accommodate the ponderous new Ormskirk timetable still rankles. The 0803 Southport - Liverpool Central extra was one of the most heavily crowded three car services on the network prior to its withdrawal, with the six cars either side of it each packed themselves. The Merseyside Route Utilisation Strategy recommended the daytime Southport frequency be increased to every 10 minutes years ago, but it has not happened.

The 8 tph to Kirkdale is effectively the Northern Line equivalent of the 8 tph Birkenhead North service, albeit with somewhat fewer stations. It's a product of having a standard 4 tph service across most branches.

The 27 tph began with the opening of the Loop and comprised 12 tph to Rock Ferry, 6 to New Brighton, 6 to West Kirby and 3 Birkenhead Park short workings. It only lasted until October when the cuts began in earnest with the Rock Ferry service halved to 6 tph, allowing some of the spare 503s to be sent to the Northern Line. The Loop tunnels were actually signalled for 36 trains per hour with headways up to every 90 seconds, but it has never run at such frequencies and nowadays such a service interval would be grossly excessive.

Prior to the loop opening, 24 tph were the norm in the peak: the same service but without the Birkenhead Park shorts. This was an incredibly intensive service for one turnback siding and it required a dedicated 'turnback crew' to maintain the service, but they managed it for nearly 40 years. The burrowing junction at Hamilton Square was designed with 36 tph in mind so has never served its true purpose as the flat junction managed 24 tph, although it is useful for avoiding conflicting movements when trains run late.

 

[Mollman]

same sort of thing undermined Newcastle Metro planned system / network from very soon after it opened I think I read.

Unfortunately Brits don't seem to like having to change modes or services, hence everywhere wanting a direct train to Manchester Airport.

 

[jamesst]

The loss of the 7/8 minute peak Southport service to accommodate the ponderous new Ormskirk timetable still rankles. The 0803 Southport - Liverpool Central extra was one of the most heavily crowded three car services on the network prior to its withdrawal, with the six cars either side of it each packed themselves. The Merseyside Route Utilisation Strategy recommended the daytime Southport frequency be increased to every 10 minutes years ago, but it has not happened.

The 8 tph to Kirkdale is effectively the Northern Line equivalent of the 8 tph Birkenhead North service, albeit with somewhat fewer stations. It's a product of having a standard 4 tph service across most branches.

The 27 tph began with the opening of the Loop and comprised 12 tph to Rock Ferry, 6 to New Brighton, 6 to West Kirby and 3 Birkenhead Park short workings. It only lasted until October when the cuts began in earnest with the Rock Ferry service halved to 6 tph, allowing some of the spare 503s to be sent to the Northern Line. The Loop tunnels were actually signalled for 36 trains per hour with headways up to every 90 seconds, but it has never run at such frequencies and nowadays such a service interval would be grossly excessive.

It's been said before but a complete resignalling of the Liverpool loop would have to be undertaken before anywhere near the supposed 36 trains per hour could be pushed through there. Some of the signal positions in the underground are frankly appalling and with modern signalling standards there's not much more capacity than what runs round the loop now.

Prior to the loop opening, 24 tph were the norm in the peak: the same service but without the Birkenhead Park shorts. This was an incredibly intensive service for one turnback siding and it required a dedicated 'turnback crew' to maintain the service, but they managed it for nearly 40 years. The burrowing junction at Hamilton Square was designed with 36 tph in mind so has never served its true purpose as the flat junction managed 24 tph, although it is useful for avoiding conflicting movements when trains run late.

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately Brits don't seem to like having to change modes or services, hence everywhere wanting a direct train to Manchester Airport.

Not sure that applies in quite the same way to urban commuting tho - lots of people must change mode at a London terminal (to the underground or a central area bus) after all - tho all changes of mode or even of train tend to prolong aspects of the journey etc etc and may negate the speedier nature of the service.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unfortunately Brits don't seem to like having to change modes or services, hence everywhere wanting a direct train to Manchester Airport.

Mainly because if you miss the connection, you're on your own!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The Portfolio Holder for Transport and Air Quality presented a report to LCA on the wheel bearing failures earlier in the year

https://moderngov.merseytravel.gov.uk/documents/s63987/Report on Merseyrail Service Disruption.pdf

Doesn't give a root cause yet but implies its related to electrical pitting and explains what there doing with SNC Lavalin to find the problem and check the new trains aren't susceptible. They will submit final report to authority when they receive it.

 

[MattRat]

The Portfolio Holder for Transport and Air Quality presented a report to LCA on the wheel bearing failures earlier in the year

https://moderngov.merseytravel.gov.uk/documents/s63987/Report on Merseyrail Service Disruption.pdf

Doesn't give a root cause yet but implies its related to electrical pitting and explains what there doing with SNC Lavalin to find the problem and check the new trains aren't susceptible. They will submit final report to authority when they receive it.

Well I had a feeling it wasn't going to be the trains. They are getting old, sure, but they are workhorses. Keep them maintained, they'll keep going. Just look at the 507s as the best example. Sadly the 508s haven't had the same refurb so will eventually just wear out.

 

[WesternLancer]

Had a good day sampling 507s and 508s earlier in the week - and saywthe new ones on test too which was interesting to see.

One observation I had was that whilst not all perfect - Merseyrail would seem to manage a better job keeping their PEPs clean and decent inside than Southern have done with their 313s. I've not looked it up but I'm guessing their respective interior refurbs were carried out at around the same time. Whilst I think the 3131s are pretty grotty internally now, the merseyside PEPs seemed reasonably respectable inside to me.

 

[warwickshire]

Had a good day sampling 507s and 508s earlier in the week - and saywthe new ones on test too which was interesting to see.

One observation I had was that whilst not all perfect - Merseyrail would seem to manage a better job keeping their PEPs clean and decent inside than Southern have done with their 313s. I've not looked it up but I'm guessing their respective interior refurbs were carried out at around the same time. Whilst I think the 3131s are pretty grotty internally now, the merseyside PEPs seemed reasonably respectable inside to me.

Yes.. Reminds me when travelling on them recently they do have onboard cleaning plus at some stations ie the peps 507 and 508 are meet by cleaners already on site at the station ready to clean them.

 

[Razorblades]

Had a good day sampling 507s and 508s earlier in the week - and saywthe new ones on test too which was interesting to see.

One observation I had was that whilst not all perfect - Merseyrail would seem to manage a better job keeping their PEPs clean and decent inside than Southern have done with their 313s. I've not looked it up but I'm guessing their respective interior refurbs were carried out at around the same time. Whilst I think the 3131s are pretty grotty internally now, the merseyside PEPs seemed reasonably respectable inside to me.

It's been a few years now, but when I roved the Merseyrail network as chaperone to Stadler's chosen design house, during the tendering process for the new trains, I was struck by the general levels of cleanliness of each aspect of the system.

(And, no, everywhere didn't smell of fresh paint - we went about our fact-finding business anonymously, not even as mystery-shoppers!)

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened by request of @61653 HTAFC.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thread reopened by request of @61653 HTAFC.

Thanks.

Just to recap (as this thread was dormant for a while), with the 777s due to start taking over from the 50x stock very shortly (though slowly at first), I think we can expect to start seeing further withdrawals in the coming weeks and months.
My understanding is that a limited number of 507s will remain for longer in order to provide 6-car workings to Southport- until changes are made to the infrastructure at Southport station to allow the 777s to work in pairs.

 

[MattRat]

Thanks.

Just to recap (as this thread was dormant for a while), with the 777s due to start taking over from the 50x stock very shortly (though slowly at first), I think we can expect to start seeing further withdrawals in the coming weeks and months.
My understanding is that a limited number of 507s will remain for longer in order to provide 6-car workings to Southport- until changes are made to the infrastructure at Southport station to allow the 777s to work in pairs.

What are the unit conditions currently? Which are likely to head to the scrap god first, and which are likely to stay on to the end?

Also sidenote: What do the preservation chances look like at the moment?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What are the unit conditions currently? Which are likely to head to the scrap god first, and which are likely to stay on to the end?

Also sidenote: What do the preservation chances look like at the moment?

In the earlier parts of this thread there's discussion of several units that were low on miles before needing overhaul, along with issues with bearings which seem to have been overcome.

As 777 introduction will be pretty slow initially while crews are trained up (understandable, as the 777s will be quite a step up technology-wise from the PEP units), I would hypothesise that it will likely be several weeks before large scale withdrawals begin.
As some 507s will be retained I'd expect 508s to be on the chopping block first, but once withdrawals begin it will likely be down to the condition of individual units.
As for preservation, the issues with preserving EMUs have been discussed at length on other threads. That said, a group did manage to save a 503 unit so there may be hope for a 507 or 508... though the preserved 503 has had a rough time of it in recent years.

 

[MattRat]

In the earlier parts of this thread there's discussion of several units that were low on miles before needing overhaul, along with issues with bearings which seem to have been overcome.

As 777 introduction will be pretty slow initially while crews are trained up (understandable, as the 777s will be quite a step up technology-wise from the PEP units), I would hypothesise that it will likely be several weeks before large scale withdrawals begin.
As some 507s will be retained I'd expect 508s to be on the chopping block first, but once withdrawals begin it will likely be down to the condition of individual units.
As for preservation, the issues with preserving EMUs have been discussed at length on other threads. That said, a group did manage to save a 503 unit so there may be hope for a 507 or 508... though the preserved 503 has had a rough time of it in recent years.

I understand there may be older information, but an update would be nice. Sometimes a seemingly good unit turns rotten for whatever reason. Also while it will take a while for all units to go, some will still go first, and some will still go last. The most interesting is probably what goes first, as that would be easier to forsee.

As for preservation, shall we put that under unlikely but hopeful, at least until we get updates?

 

[8J]

I believe that 508123 and 508127 are next in line to be withdrawn from use.

 

[prod_pep]

The 507s continue to be overhauled, with 507001 recently returning to service in fine fettle following this work and I believe 507007 is in now.

Assuming withdrawals continue to be based on the mileage-based overhaul cycle, then 508122 and 508138 are two more approaching the end. 508111 is another, but then isn't this one is '100% confirmed' for preservation according to some bizarre previous posts on here and social media?

Joking aside, I do hope one is actually saved of course, even if it is just a driving carriage, and pioneer 507001 would be an ideal choice with it having undergone overhaul and likely to be amongst the last ones left. There was talk of a unit being kept for the Dock Branch heritage attraction planned for Birkenhead.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

The 507s continue to be overhauled, with 507001 recently returning to service in fine fettle following this work and I believe 507007 is in now.

Assuming withdrawals continue to be based on the mileage-based overhaul cycle, then 508122 and 508138 are two more approaching the end. 508111 is another, but then isn't this one is '100% confirmed' for preservation according to some bizarre previous posts on here and social media?

Joking aside, I do hope one is actually saved of course, even if it is just a driving carriage, and pioneer 507001 would be an ideal choice with it having undergone overhaul and likely to be amongst the last ones left. There was talk of a unit being kept for the Dock Branch heritage attraction planned for Birkenhead.

508s withdrawal first then 507s?

 

[Liam L]

508s withdrawal first then 507s?

Yes.

 

[8A Rail]

As for preservation, the issues with preserving EMUs have been discussed at length on other threads. That said, a group did manage to save a 503 unit so there may be hope for a 507 or 508... though the preserved 503 has had a rough time of it in recent years.

Just a small point, there is also a two car Class 502 unit preserved and very much unlike the Class 503, this unit is currently indoors and slowly being restored internally and externally by a small group of volunteers who are doing a fantastic job, for further details see: 'Friends of the 502 Group' (http://www.class502.org.uk/) and scroll down this particular page to see some image's of the current restoration - https://www.flickr.com/photos/merseywail/albums/72157626540993134

 

[315801]

As far as I know if you google the class 503, I think there is a picture of the only surviving 503 unit ( all 3 coaches ) in a building sitting on rails.

I must point out that I am not sure if it at the 1:1 display at the hornby site in kent aswell as other locomotives and stock that ran on the uk rail network. There might be further information about it somewhere.

 

[WesternLancer]

As far as I know if you google the class 503, I think there is a picture of the only surviving 503 unit ( all 3 coaches ) in a building sitting on rails.

I must point out that I am not sure if it at the 1:1 display at the hornby site in kent aswell as other locomotives and stock that ran on the uk rail network. There might be further information about it somewhere.

I think that is the location when the background seen against other pics and compared. There is post from sept 2021 on their facebook page which I quickly looked at following google search which says:

"At present where it is located is a storage agreement only, so we cannot work on it. Also it needs plenty of body work and in the case of 29289 end coach, it needs new glass as well (broken before Coventry). That's before you consider that we need to raise money for the unit."

But at least it must be a decent dry location - just a big shame such buildings were not available much earlier to stop the deterioration.

Meanwhile wikipedia says the 502 is undercover - but their site does not seem to include pics that show it's general condition by comparison with the 503. Tho I am sure there are people on this forum who have an idea of that.

 

[315801]

I cannot even begin to imagine how much would have to be raised in order to return the 503 to running condition

 

[8A Rail]

Meanwhile wikipedia says the 502 is undercover - but their site does not seem to include pics that show it's general condition by comparison with the 503. Tho I am sure there are people on this forum who have an idea of that.

See my post above (No 353) which provides links to the Class 502 unit, including numerous images providing you move your finger on the mouse to scroll. The Class 502 is much much better condition that I can rest assure you. Any images of the Class 503 I have seen represents very sadly a disaster zone!

 

[WesternLancer]

See my post above (No 353) which provides links to the Class 502 unit, including numerous images providing you move your finger on the mouse to scroll. The Class 502 is much much better condition that I can rest assure you. Any images of the Class 503 I have seen represents very sadly a disaster zone!

Thanks Doug - was that the flikr link? (Can't see any pics of it in current state on the 502 website* itself) - I was only seeing lots of pics of 1980s railtours on the 502 flikr page but then I did look harder and see lower down now pics of heavy restoration work under way which was good and indeed shows much great work. Looked like the 502 state was worse before that restoration work than the 503 images at Hornby site look but hard to be certain of course.

V sad that both units left service in relatively good condition - one supposedly under the care of the NRM - but for want of undercover accommodation ended up deteriorating so badly.

It always amazes me that you drive round the country and see no end of vast distribution depots and large farm type barn buildings etc - so they must be relatively cheap to construct in the great scheme of things - but basic dry storage for heritage assets (not just railway stuff of course) seems to be so tricky to provide.

*EDIT - but a very helpful written synopsis of its history post withdrawal and restoration work in subsequent years.

 

[8A Rail]

Thanks Doug - was that the flikr link? (Can't see any pics of it in current state on the 502 website* itself) - I was only seeing lots of pics of 1980s railtours on the 502 flikr page but then I did look harder and see lower down now pics of heavy restoration work under way which was good and indeed shows much great work. Looked like the 502 state was worse before that restoration work than the 503 images at Hornby site look but hard to be certain of course.

V sad that both units left service in relatively good condition - one supposedly under the care of the NRM - but for want of undercover accommodation ended up deteriorating so badly.

It always amazes me that you drive round the country and see no end of vast distribution depots and large farm type barn buildings etc - so they must be relatively cheap to construct in the great scheme of things - but basic dry storage for heritage assets (not just railway stuff of course) seems to be so tricky to provide.

*EDIT - but a very helpful written synopsis of its history post withdrawal and restoration work in subsequent years.

Yes, it was the 'Flickr' link I was referring to for the images. it does show how the progress and I think it has slightly moved on again. Strangely both Units had under cover storage which was at the old Southport (27C) shed until the Steamport railway centre decided (quite rightly) moved to Preston. That is when the problems started made worst by the NRM not making sure that cover was in place for the Class 502 unit afterwards.

 

[507 001]

When the 502 moved to Tebay after transferring to the care of its current custodians I had a look over it.

If you open the cam-shaft and other control cases below the solebar it’s actually not in bad nick. Most things looking recently overhauled, with fresh paint and all nicely labelled.

The same couldn’t be said for the bodywork, although the group is doing an absolutely superb job putting that right.