Boosting off peak passenger numbers?

[Xavi]

mods note - split from here

Season tickets have never been ‘premium’ revenue, assuming 5 return trips per week and a 7-day season offers some of the cheapest travel on the network. The problem is the regular commuters numbers are much reduced.

Other peak fares were mainly business travellers on expense accounts. Over the past 25 years Anytime fares were increased beyond all reasonableness to a level that was unsustainable. Without covid there would still have been decline. Off peak business travel with a hotel rather than a day trip was already being preferred by many, and MS Teams (online meetings) has improved massively in the last 3 years (unrelated to Covid).

Common sense would be a regular service throughout the day (avoiding the need for additional peak trains and staffing) with a lower premium for peak travel. However, DfT is totally inflexible and scared stiff of average revenue per passenger reducing further, so it’s difficult to see any sensible way forward.

If an experiment was possible I’d like to see an am only peak with lower fares than present and off-peak fares increased but with a network-wide ‘Network Railcard’ available to all.

 

[david1212]

..... but with a network-wide ‘Network Railcard’ available to all.

What does that achieve over simply set every fare to the railcard price ? To me just more administration and higher headline fares to discourage occasional travellers and those who look at rail fares but then take the car.

 

[43096]

What does that achieve over simply set every fare to the railcard price ? To me just more administration and higher headline fares to discourage occasional travellers and those who look at rail fares but then take the car.

The flip side is that it rewards regular customers - something that a good business would look to do.

 

[The exile]

What does that achieve over simply set every fare to the railcard price ? To me just more administration and higher headline fares to discourage occasional travellers and those who look at rail fares but then take the car.

Psychologically quite a lot - while there is a hurdle to buying the railcard in the first place, for many this will be no greater than the thought of using rail at all, but once you’ve got it “you might as well use it”. If it can be set up to auto-renew via DD so much the better.

 

[Xavi]

What does that achieve over simply set every fare to the railcard price ? To me just more administration and higher headline fares to discourage occasional travellers and those who look at rail fares but then take the car.

Not a lot! However, it may appease the Treasury (they’d like the ‘increase’ part which would support their ‘neutral’ ideal) even though the total revenue outcome would probably be similar.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2022 ==

The flip side is that it rewards regular customers - something that a good business would look to do.

Psychologically quite a lot - while there is a hurdle to buying the railcard in the first place, for many this will be no greater than the thought of using rail at all, but once you’ve got it “you might as well use it”. If it can be set up to auto-renew via DD so much the better.

Very good points that I hadn’t considered.

 

[david1212]

The flip side is that it rewards regular customers - something that a good business would look to do.

How does the railcard reward a regular customer. There is no prerequisite to purchase e.g. show proof of buying 5 tickets in the last 30 days. Once obtained the same fare if used 5 times or 200 over the validity period ?

The regular customer ' reward ' traditionally is the season ticket or Carnet. Now there are flexible season tickets too.

At the risk of upsetting some forum members if an ITSO style system was fully implemented that could include algorithms to automatically discount some or all tickets once purchase thresholds were reached.

 

[Ken H]

How does the railcard reward a regular customer. There is no prerequisite to purchase e.g. show proof of buying 5 tickets in the last 30 days. Once obtained the same fare if used 5 times or 200 over the validity period ?

The regular customer ' reward ' traditionally is the season ticket or Carnet. Now there are flexible season tickets too.

At the risk of upsetting some forum members if an ITSO style system was fully implemented that could include algorithms to automatically discount some or all tickets once purchase thresholds were reached.

Or just do a loyalty card. Plenty of retailers do

 

[dk1]

Or just do a loyalty card. Plenty of retailers do

Certain TOCs once accepted Nectar. Not sure if they still do as never benefited me personally.

 

[Xavi]

The regular customer ' reward ' traditionally is the season ticket

Agreed. However, season demand has plummeted and there’s the problem.

Nobody knows whether any experiment would work but at least the Irish and Germans are willing to try and the UK should too.

My preferred experiment would be off-peak tickets increased by up to 10% (CPI) to appease Treasury. Ditch super off-peak fares. Reset Anytime fares at a regional / route specific 0-50% above Off-Peak. No evening peak. TOCs given total freedom on pricing and volume of Advance tickets except they must be below the relevant Off-Peak or Anytime fare. Universal National Railcard offering 33% reduction on Off-Peak and Advance fares - that’s a minimum 26% below a current non-railcard walk-up fare.

All likely to result in more efficient use of resources and greater customer satisfaction. Instead DfT / Treasury will spend fortunes deciding they don’t want to take a chance and do nothing!

 

[Kite159]

All likely to result in more efficient use of resources and greater customer satisfaction

Other than those customers who make use of the super offpeak tickets who will now face a hike in price they pay and hence driving them away from the expensive railway

 

[wilbers]

I always though an advance out, off-peak return (on either same day, or on a different specified day) would be a handy option. Currently only possible where singles aren't almost the same price as the return (those that are 10p or £1 difference) by booking an advance one way, and getting a walk-up off-peak single for the return half when required.

 

[Kite159]

I always though an advance out, off-peak return (on either same day, or on a different specified day) would be a handy option. Currently only possible where singles aren't almost the same price as the return (those that are 10p or £1 difference) by booking an advance one way, and getting a walk-up off-peak single for the return half when required.

Bit like what Virgin used to offer, advance fare one way with a half price offpeak single for the way back giving flexibility for when the return could have changed times (ie attending a sporting event)

 

[Xavi]

Other than those customers who make use of the super offpeak tickets who will now face a hike in price they pay and hence driving them away from the expensive railway

Not necessarily, those are the passengers chasing a good bargain and would be encouraged to purchase a National Railcard. Here's an example:

Bristol to Paddington
Current
Off-peak Return £90.10
Super off-peak return £67.20
Revised
Off-peak return (increased by 10%) £99.10 (£66.40 with National Railcard)

The revised maximum Anytime fare would be £148.65 which compares with (the now very low sale volumes) £238.80 presently.

My instinct is that this would lead to a more even distribution of passengers through the day and encourage a return to more ad hoc business trips.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

I always though an advance out, off-peak return (on either same day, or on a different specified day) would be a handy option. Currently only possible where singles aren't almost the same price as the return (those that are 10p or £1 difference) by booking an advance one way, and getting a walk-up off-peak single for the return half when required.

Agreed, singles at half the price of the Off-Peak or Anytime fares should be part of a package (or experiment).

 

[Kite159]

Not necessarily, those are the passengers chasing a good bargain and would be encouraged to purchase a National Railcard. Here's an example:

Bristol to Paddington
Current
Off-peak Return £90.10
Super off-peak return £67.20
Revised
Off-peak return (increased by 10%) £99.10 (£66.40 with National Railcard)

The revised maximum Anytime fare would be £148.65 which compares with (the now very low sale volumes) £238.80 presently.

My instinct is that this would lead to a more even distribution of passengers through the day and encourage a return to more ad hoc business trips.

And for those who already hold a railcard?

Using that example ~ £44 for the super offpeak return gone, now they will pay £66 for the offpeak return.

Some Business travellers won't care about the price as they either don't pay for the tickets (company credit card) or they simply claim the cost back as expenses

 

[ar10642]

What does that achieve over simply set every fare to the railcard price ? To me just more administration and higher headline fares to discourage occasional travellers and those who look at rail fares but then take the car.

This is an argument against any kind of railcard or discount.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

How does the railcard reward a regular customer.

You get a discount on every applicable ticket, so the more you use it the more you save against the regular fare.

 

[The exile]

How does the railcard reward a regular customer..

In addition to the standard discount, a non paper-photocard type can be set up to offer other kinds of rewards as well (loyalty bonuses etc)

 

[43066]

This is an argument against any kind of railcard or discount.

So are you against discounts for disabled people, pensioners, young people, carers travelling with vulnerable people etc.?

 

[ar10642]

So are you against discounts for disabled people, pensioners, young people, carers travelling with vulnerable people etc.?

I'm not against discounts at all. I like having a network railcard and it definitely does encourage me to use the train over the car, when I can actually use it.

 

[Xavi]

Some Business travellers won't care about the price as they either don't pay for the tickets (company credit card) or they simply claim the cost back as expenses

That’s the other problem the industry is facing. We had years of unreasonable and unsustainable Anytime price increases. Covid shone the light for many businesses and they’ve realised these prices could not be justified, particularly given the improvements to online meeting software e.g. MS Teams. Sales of business Anytime tickets have subsequently collapsed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

And for those who already hold a railcard?

Using that example ~ £44 for the super offpeak return gone, now they will pay £66 for the offpeak return.

Good point. That bracket would need to be fulfilled by TOCs having the freedom to vary Advance fares and quotas.

 

[Dr Day]

TOCs having the freedom to vary Advance fares and quotas

Are the DfT really micromanaging these days to the extent they are stopping TOCS manage Advance yields and quotas themselves?

 

[Xavi]

Are the DfT really micromanaging these days to the extent they are stopping TOCS manage Advance yields and quotas themselves?

Not sure of the detail, however, there are set Advance fares e.g. £50, then the next level at £35 etc. I would like to see TOCs given complete freedom e.g. you may see a fare of £42 one day and £29 the next.

 

[dk1]

Are the DfT really micromanaging these days to the extent they are stopping TOCS manage Advance yields and quotas themselves?

Plenty of freedom on GA at the moment with the very unrestricted & very popular Hare Fares.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. However, season demand has plummeted and there’s the problem.

Nobody knows whether any experiment would work but at least the Irish and Germans are willing to try and the UK should too.

My preferred experiment would be off-peak tickets increased by up to 10% (CPI) to appease Treasury. Ditch super off-peak fares. Reset Anytime fares at a regional / route specific 0-50% above Off-Peak. No evening peak. TOCs given total freedom on pricing and volume of Advance tickets except they must be below the relevant Off-Peak or Anytime fare. Universal National Railcard offering 33% reduction on Off-Peak and Advance fares - that’s a minimum 26% below a current non-railcard walk-up fare.

All likely to result in more efficient use of resources and greater customer satisfaction. Instead DfT / Treasury will spend fortunes deciding they don’t want to take a chance and do nothing!

Other than those customers who make use of the super offpeak tickets who will now face a hike in price they pay and hence driving them away from the expensive railway

Indeed.

I've bought a few super off-peak fares for longer distance journeys and they've made eye-watering fares merely hefty.

If anything, they ought to become the off-peak fare.

 

[Jimini]

Indeed.

I've bought a few super off-peak fares for longer distance journeys and they've made eye-watering fares merely hefty.

If anything, they ought to become the off-peak fare.

I’ve still not forgiven Avanti for craftily pulling the plug on super off peak tickets. 50% increase in cost overnight.

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve still not forgiven Avanti for craftily pulling the plug on super off peak tickets. 50% increase in cost overnight.

Fortunately I've not had to use them long distance for a while, but that sounds like a very anti-passenger move.

There needs to be an option for longer distance flexible travel that doesn't require taking out a mortgage !

 

[Xavi]

There needs to be an option for longer distance flexible travel

Advances could be interchangeable up to departure time subject to availability without penalty - you’d only pay the difference (or receive refund) for the new fare you chose. Unthinkable 10 years ago, now straightforward in the digital age.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

For shorter day return travel it would be good to give TOCs the option (like Advance for longer distance travel) of selling discounted tickets after a set time, like the SWR Evening Out.

There will be more suitable ideas than the few thoughts I’ve thrown around, just a shame the industry is silent (or muzzled by DfT) on the subject.

 

[43066]

Advances could be interchangeable up to departure time subject to availability without penalty - you’d only pay the difference (or receive refund) for the new fare you chose. Unthinkable 10 years ago, now straightforward in the digital age.

The issue with that is, why would anyone ever then buy anything other than an advance?!

 

[yorksrob]

Advances could be interchangeable up to departure time subject to availability without penalty - you’d only pay the difference (or receive refund) for the new fare you chose. Unthinkable 10 years ago, now straightforward in the digital age.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

For shorter day return travel it would be good to give TOCs the option (like Advance for longer distance travel) of selling discounted tickets after a set time, like the SWR Evening Out.

There will be more suitable ideas than the few thoughts I’ve thrown around, just a shame the industry is silent (or muzzled by DfT) on the subject.

Sometimes I can't be bothered fannying around for separate legs of each journey.

Why not just have a sensibly priced super off-peak fare for every long distance flow ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Advances could be interchangeable up to departure time subject to availability without penalty - you’d only pay the difference (or receive refund) for the new fare you chose. Unthinkable 10 years ago, now straightforward in the digital age.

The issue with that is, why would anyone ever then buy anything other than an advance?!

conceptually, like some hotels, you could have a fixed advance: no change + no refund (use it or lose it) or a more expensive flexi-advance: changeable / refundable for free. But that’s effcetively the system we have now ?

 

[43066]

But that’s effcetively the system we have now ?

I suppose it is!

Albeit AIUI if you show up with an advance and want the train before/after, don’t you have to buy a whole new ticket and then claim a refund for the unused advance, which is more faff than crediting it towards a new ticket?