BBC Article "Britain's hidden transport crisis."

[Dai Corner]

Is that a bad thing? And if you think it is, why?

It is if the BBC only report the hard luck stories and not the hundreds of passengers who travel on the 16, 16B and X7 at times to suit them. It is not (or shouldn't be) a campaigning organisation and should report the whole picture.

Indeed, it ends up being a death of a thousand cuts. Where my parents live between Halifax and Bradford used to have a last bus at about 11.10pm, so when I went out for a drink with my dad we took the bus. The last bus is now 10.10, so we get a lift down and a taxi back.

Operators seem to be operating 8-6 Monday-Saturday in many areas now, fine for the twirlies on their free bus passes but not much use for people who work.

I've had to change my drinking times to be able to use my bus pass on the last bus home at 2120 and avoid paying ten quid or so for a taxi. This is in a medium sized city, not a village, by the way. Other suburbs do get later last buses, to be fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had to change my drinking times to be able to use my bus pass on the last bus home at 2120 and avoid paying ten quid or so for a taxi. This is in a medium sized city, not a village, by the way. Other suburbs do get later last buses, to be fair.

It's probably the more varied pub closing hours that knackers the viability of say a 2330 bus to the suburbs. When all pubs kicked out by 2320 that'd be very popular.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's probably the more varied pub closing hours that knackers the viability of say a 2330 bus to the suburbs. When all pubs kicked out by 2320 that'd be very popular.

Yep, the last buses all used to leave at 2300, the Inspector blew a whistle and they'd pull away simultaneously. Quite a sight.

Unfortunately, my local Councillor isn't on the Board of the municipal bus company so my ward gets a worse bus service than those whose Councillors are.

 

[Busaholic]

It is if the BBC only report the hard luck stories and not the hundreds of passengers who travel on the 16, 16B and X7 at times to suit them. It is not (or shouldn't be) a campaigning organisation and should report the whole picture.

I've had to change my drinking times to be able to use my bus pass on the last bus home at 2120 and avoid paying ten qucommercialid or so for a taxi. This is in a medium sized city, not a village, by the way. Other suburbs do get later last buses, to be fair.

Perhaps you'd like a broadcasting organisation that just parrots the official line, like in Russia and China, to name but two. One of the BBC's main planks is to report and inform: these functions can't be left to commercial organisations with who-knows-what vested interests. In any case, most people would feel more concerned about people no longer able to do their jobs through withdrawal of bus services than whether they're able to pop down to the pub in the evening, which is hardly a necessity.

 

[Dai Corner]

Perhaps you'd like a broadcasting organisation that just parrots the official line, like in Russia and China, to name but two. One of the BBC's main planks is to report and inform: these functions can't be left to commercial organisations with who-knows-what vested interests.

No, I'd like a BBC which reports the whole story. Hundreds of people must use the buses between Dundee and Perth every day but none of those who found it great or ok were featured as that's not 'news'.

In any case, most people would feel more concerned about people no longer able to do their jobs through withdrawal of bus services than whether they're able to pop down to the pub in the evening, which is hardly a necessity.

Indeed. Though my beer money supports jobs in the hospitality industry which has been struggling. Many of my fellow passengers are going home from work; wearing retail or care uniforms or getting on outside the hospital.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

It is interesting that the article fails to mention the fact that Stagecoach publish cancellations on their Twitter page daily. Not the most passenger friendly, I agree, but it's not as if they're leaving customers completely "in the dark" - no pun intended.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yep, the last buses all used to leave at 2300, the Inspector blew a whistle and they'd pull away simultaneously. Quite a sight.

Unfortunately, my local Councillor isn't on the Board of the municipal bus company so my ward gets a worse bus service than those whose Councillors are.

The licensing hours were historically until 2230 (a hangover from Defence of the Realm Act and WW1). Hence why buses in my town tended to run at 2235/2240.

However, even when licensing hours changed in the late 1980s, the operators didn't change the bus times. However, it was probably no biggie as you merely missed out on a last pint. It was 2005, and the relaxation of licensing laws that really began the downward spiral in evening bus services.

 

[SLC001]

I have heard this story told elsewhere about the 11:00pm departure from town or city centres but this is from someone who worked at Salford. Victoria bus station was the location, and one joker blew his own whistle at 10:55 and the inspector was desperately trying to stop the buses leaving. The last bus of the day was one service that could not leave early!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is if the BBC only report the hard luck stories and not the hundreds of passengers who travel on the 16, 16B and X7 at times to suit them. It is not (or shouldn't be) a campaigning organisation and should report the whole picture.

I thought the article was pretty fair and balanced tbh.

It's also fair to say a bus that runs 8-6 Monday-Saturday will get plenty of the custom whilst also simultaneously excluding the most vulnerable from accessing public services and social activities.

My question wasn't so much about the BBC, more why is asking for public support for bus services a bad thing?

It continues to annoy me that a bus service is expected to break even whilst a road is not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

It was 2005, and the relaxation of licensing laws that really began the downward spiral in evening bus services.

I'm not so sure that one impacts the other as much as bus operators claim. Pubs may stay open later, maybe till midnight, but generally the drinking climate hasn't changed that much. Pre-2005 if you were still out at 11 you were out out for the long haul and the last bus became an irrelevance, and it's pretty much the same today.

If anything the bus changes are driving the drinking changes: if your last bus is at 10.00 then you're in a taxi home regardless, so you may as well have that pint for the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pre-2005 if you were still out at 11 you were out out for the long haul and the last bus became an irrelevance, and it's pretty much the same today.

Was it? In my experience you'd normally stay until the pub closed whenever that was.

 

[InOban]

Of course public transport should be subsidised. If the person in the original story were able to drive, he would be adding to the congestion on the road and in particular in Dundee. I've seen research which shows that the major beneficiaries of investment in public transport are those who don't use it. It's in everyone's interest to have good 24/7 public transport. I'm sure that part of the success of Edinburgh is that it has just that.

 

[overthewater]

The issues with Errol early morning passengers could all be sorted if the Council could run a shuttle from Errol to connect with the X16 at Inchture at 06.50.

 

[Dai Corner]

Of course public transport should be subsidised. If the person in the original story were able to drive, he would be adding to the congestion on the road and in particular in Dundee. I've seen research which shows that the major beneficiaries of investment in public transport are those who don't use it. It's in everyone's interest to have good 24/7 public transport. I'm sure that part of the success of Edinburgh is that it has just that.

How congested are Dundee and the A90 before 0800? If buses arriving at that time have become commercially unviable perhaps the traffic isn't too bad either?

 

[markymark2000]

Public ownership wont help. Staff will still shun unsocial hours, and people still wont ride buses as they don't need to travel. The municipals were struggling in the 50's and 60's. why would they do well now?

Staff are in many cases willing to work unsocial hours, what they aren't willing to do though is work early one day, late the next day, early the next day. Sadly, the new swathe of management don't care about staff and messing up their sleeping patterns (which in turn makes staff more unhappy and staff provide a worse service to passengers as a result. It also means drivers driving tired). My local bus operator did at one point have a duty where someone did 20 round trips on the town bus (12 min round trip, 4 trips per hour, 5 hours).
Bus operators don't want people who do only earlies or only lates, despite the fact the staff member is happier, they want people who live and breathe the company and live to work, not work to live. That's why the bus industry is stuffed. The poor employers are struggling the most. The better employers (like one major coach firm near me offers set days off each week or every fortnight) have plenty of drivers. Covid has been great for workers in that people have started to value home life more and are no longer willing to die early and risk their health for an employer who doesn't value them.


When the multi nationals stop treating their staff like poop, they will have plenty of drivers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not so sure that one impacts the other as much as bus operators claim. Pubs may stay open later, maybe till midnight, but generally the drinking climate hasn't changed that much. Pre-2005 if you were still out at 11 you were out out for the long haul and the last bus became an irrelevance, and it's pretty much the same today.

It really did have an impact. However, it wasn't the only one and it was a step in an overall decline of drinking/evening culture. 2007 saw the smoking ban come in. We've seen an overall decline over time in the number of pubs - from 69k in 1980 to 46k in 2021. In 1980, nearly 90% of beer was drunk in pubs; now it's less than half, and that's aside being a nation that now drinks less.

It was the rammed buses on a Fri/Sat night (and to a lesser extent Thurs/Sun) that used to prop up the overall evening service. Sadly, we now need more in terms of support for buses, irrespective of the ownership model, and I fear that a change in PM isn't going to bode well for bus service support.

 

[DunsBus]

In my part of the Borders there have been constant and repeated pleas for later buses from Berwick over the last two years as the last bus from there is at 1645 (1650 on Sundays). Yet Borders Buses, each time, shrug its shoulders and pleads poverty. The current service 60 timetable is more for operational needs than passenger needs.

 

[johncrossley]

In my part of the Borders there have been constant and repeated pleas for later buses from Berwick over the last two years as the last bus from there is at 1645 (1650 on Sundays). Yet Borders Buses, each time, shrug its shoulders and pleads poverty.

I thought they still had bus deregulation in the Scottish Borders? It is up to the council to tender evening buses.

 

[ian1944]

I get quite nostalgic with the comment on buses rammed (with beery drinkers) on Fri/Sat night, thinking too of the all-pervading smoke pall which accompanied the merry throng. Even though smoking was banned downstairs, enough took place upstairs to overflow the volume there and eventually fill the whole vehicle. And was Manchester corpy alone in its "no spitting" signs upstairs?

 

[route101]

I get quite nostalgic with the comment on buses rammed (with beery drinkers) on Fri/Sat night, thinking too of the all-pervading smoke pall which accompanied the merry throng. Even though smoking was banned downstairs, enough took place upstairs to overflow the volume there and eventually fill the whole vehicle. And was Manchester corpy alone in its "no spitting" signs upstairs?

The old Glasgow Corpy buses have them '' no spitting' signs.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The old Glasgow Corpy buses have them '' no spitting' signs.

I remember Eastern Scottish buses having them in the mid 1980s!

 

[markymark2000]

In my part of the Borders there have been constant and repeated pleas for later buses from Berwick over the last two years as the last bus from there is at 1645 (1650 on Sundays). Yet Borders Buses, each time, shrug its shoulders and pleads poverty. The current service 60 timetable is more for operational needs than passenger needs.

This right here is the issue that Britain's Transport faces. There are some really poor operators around the UK who constantly drag down the industry and lead to the endless negativity from the press. Operators whom put in minimal effort but still expect services to be successful and when that goes up the wall, run off crying to the council like a little baby begging for more money to keep them and their services afloat. Completely ignoring the fact that they are the issue. Some stupid councils then keep throwing money at the shambolic bus operators rather than trying to work more with the operators who are willing to put in a bit more effort and grow usage.

Sadly, the bad operators get far more air time than they should and the very good operators who do a stirling job day in, day out, get little recognition outside of the industry and sadly are in fewer numbers than the dismal operators. As an industry, there needs to be a huge kick up the backside for the poor operators and if they don't improve, they need to face all consequences which are legal (like not letting them join earned recognition from DVSA, kicking them out of trade bodies etc etc). Spineless Traffic Commissioners holding operators accountable for their actions as well. Councils need a kick up the backside as well to stop throwing hundreds of thousands of pounds at operators who refuse to comply with legal obligations (like Bus open data) and put money into operators who will at least put in the effort to get people back onto the buses, not just plod on letting the route decline and potentially die off.



I think that right now, the big firms know that they are on a ticking clock before franchising or full renationalisation comes in so they are trying to rinse the taxpayer now before they become extinct. If they want to remain in business, they are going completely the wrong way about it. Cutting back all of the routes to bare minimum that they can get away with, constantly discouraging passengers from using buses with services never showing up (because some depots are incompetent at regulating services, others point blank refuse to amend timetables to reflect what they can operate) and customer service becoming worse and worse. More robotic by the day. Let's be honest, why would anyone want to get on a bus today? The uncertainty that the bus won't run (gone are the days of 95% punctuality eh, now it's just run what you want, when you want), if it does turn up, it's probably a much older bus than you had pre covid with less features onboard. It's probably had any nice things taken off it (like branding which gave the local feel).

 

[DunsBus]

This right here is the issue that Britain's Transport faces. There are some really poor operators around the UK who constantly drag down the industry and lead to the endless negativity from the press. Operators whom put in minimal effort but still expect services to be successful and when that goes up the wall, run off crying to the council like a little baby begging for more money to keep them and their services afloat. Completely ignoring the fact that they are the issue. Some stupid councils then keep throwing money at the shambolic bus operators rather than trying to work more with the operators who are willing to put in a bit more effort and grow usage.

Sadly, the bad operators get far more air time than they should and the very good operators who do a stirling job day in, day out, get little recognition outside of the industry and sadly are in fewer numbers than the dismal operators. As an industry, there needs to be a huge kick up the backside for the poor operators and if they don't improve, they need to face all consequences which are legal (like not letting them join earned recognition from DVSA, kicking them out of trade bodies etc etc). Spineless Traffic Commissioners holding operators accountable for their actions as well. Councils need a kick up the backside as well to stop throwing hundreds of thousands of pounds at operators who refuse to comply with legal obligations (like Bus open data) and put money into operators who will at least put in the effort to get people back onto the buses, not just plod on letting the route decline and potentially die off.



I think that right now, the big firms know that they are on a ticking clock before franchising or full renationalisation comes in so they are trying to rinse the taxpayer now before they become extinct. If they want to remain in business, they are going completely the wrong way about it. Cutting back all of the routes to bare minimum that they can get away with, constantly discouraging passengers from using buses with services never showing up (because some depots are incompetent at regulating services, others point blank refuse to amend timetables to reflect what they can operate) and customer service becoming worse and worse. More robotic by the day. Let's be honest, why would anyone want to get on a bus today? The uncertainty that the bus won't run (gone are the days of 95% punctuality eh, now it's just run what you want, when you want), if it does turn up, it's probably a much older bus than you had pre covid with less features onboard. It's probably had any nice things taken off it (like branding which gave the local feel).

The local authority in my area (Scottish Borders Council) has tried to get Borders Buses to run later buses out of Berwick, to no avail. Passengers are, quite rightly, starting to get fed up with Borders Buses' continual shrugging of the shoulders and pleading poverty. If it is unwilling to increase service levels and instead is happy to continue to run what suits them, then it's time to step aside and let someone else have a go.

Having a last bus at just before 5pm is of no use to those who finish at half 5 or 6pm.

 

[Dai Corner]

The local authority in my area (Scottish Borders Council) has tried to get Borders Buses to run later buses out of Berwick, to no avail. Passengers are, quite rightly, starting to get fed up with Borders Buses' continual shrugging of the shoulders and pleading poverty. If it is unwilling to increase service levels and instead is happy to continue to run what suits them, then it's time to step aside and let someone else have a go.

Having a last bus at just before 5pm is of no use to those who finish at half 5 or 6pm.

In England and Wales local authorities have powers to pay for bus services which aren't commercially viable. Is it different in Scotland?

 

[NorthOxonian]

The local authority in my area (Scottish Borders Council) has tried to get Borders Buses to run later buses out of Berwick, to no avail. Passengers are, quite rightly, starting to get fed up with Borders Buses' continual shrugging of the shoulders and pleading poverty. If it is unwilling to increase service levels and instead is happy to continue to run what suits them, then it's time to step aside and let someone else have a go.

Having a last bus at just before 5pm is of no use to those who finish at half 5 or 6pm.

Is the cross border nature of the service an issue here? There was some mention of this in reference to the 16B in the original article; a route like the 60 would obviously have even more significant border issues. Not just around legislation, but also the Scottish Borders Council not wanting to be seen to subdisiding a "Northumberland" service or encouraging travel to Berwick instead of Gala?

 

[markymark2000]

The local authority in my area (Scottish Borders Council) has tried to get Borders Buses to run later buses out of Berwick, to no avail. Passengers are, quite rightly, starting to get fed up with Borders Buses' continual shrugging of the shoulders and pleading poverty. If it is unwilling to increase service levels and instead is happy to continue to run what suits them, then it's time to step aside and let someone else have a go.

Having a last bus at just before 5pm is of no use to those who finish at half 5 or 6pm.

Why haven't they tried Travelsure? They run buses from Berwick out along similar routes to Borders in some cases (the 260 goes the same way as the 60). It may only go to Duns but it's something. Borders may be willing to compromise on a half 60 to connect or something.

In England and Wales local authorities have powers to pay for bus services which aren't commercially viable. Is it different in Scotland?

Nope. Scottish councils can and do support many bus services.

Is the cross border nature of the service an issue here? There was some mention of this in reference to the 16B in the original article; a route like the 60 would obviously have even more significant border issues. Not just around legislation, but also the Scottish Borders Council not wanting to be seen to subdisiding a "Northumberland" service or encouraging travel to Berwick instead of Gala?

Shouldn't be an issue but that depends on council policy. Some councils are much more strict on enforcing county borders than others. The way around that though would be to say 'if you run from the border into Berwick commercially, we will support from the border through to [wherever]. It's only 10 minutes and I am sure that there will be other such arrangements in place.

 

[DunsBus]

Why haven't they tried Travelsure? They run buses from Berwick out along similar routes to Borders in some cases (the 260 goes the same way as the 60). It may only go to Duns but it's something. Borders may be willing to compromise on a half 60 to connect or something.

Nope. Scottish councils can and do support many bus services.


Shouldn't be an issue but that depends on council policy. Some councils are much more strict on enforcing county borders than others. The way around that though would be to say 'if you run from the border into Berwick commercially, we will support from the border through to [wherever]. It's only 10 minutes and I am sure that there will be other such arrangements in place.

Pre-Covid there were later buses from Berwick, with Travelsure also running evening journeys on Saturdays as far as Duns. These all disappeared at the first lockdown.

There is the DRT Pingo service in Berwickshire, which is a joint Borders Buses/Scottish Borders Council initiative, but the main drawback is that it doesn't go into Berwick itself - only as far as the northern outskirts.

 

[InOban]

Do Borders Buses have Edinburgh -based drivers? I think that the difficulty in providing a later service is that the coach wouldn't be back in Berwick until very late.
And isn't there a later NEx service?

 

[DunsBus]

Do Borders Buses have Edinburgh -based drivers? I think that the difficulty in providing a later service is that the coach wouldn't be back in Berwick until very late.
And isn't there a later NEx service?

No, the 253 is run entirely from the Berwick end. The last departure from Berwick is now mid-afternoon, with no Sunday service.

There is a later NatEx service which leaves Edinburgh at 2100 and gets into Berwick at 2230.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The local authority in my area (Scottish Borders Council) has tried to get Borders Buses to run later buses out of Berwick, to no avail. Passengers are, quite rightly, starting to get fed up with Borders Buses' continual shrugging of the shoulders and pleading poverty. If it is unwilling to increase service levels and instead is happy to continue to run what suits them, then it's time to step aside and let someone else have a go.

Of course, where are the big corporates? They already stepped aside having disposed of their operations to Perrymans (Arriva) and Border Buses (First).

 

[DunsBus]

Of course, where are the big corporates? They already stepped aside having disposed of their operations to Perrymans (Arriva) and Border Buses (First).

I actually wonder if WCM are losing interest in their Borders operations. The reluctance to increase service levels seems to suggest this.