BBC Article "Britain's hidden transport crisis."

[Geordie driver]

The BBC must have a different idea of " hidden" to mine, what I suspect they mean is it doesn't affect them in London.

Bus cuts: The UK’s hidden transport crisis – seen from the number 16 bus

A week travelling on a typical route shows what happens to the country when the buses stop running.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bus services have failed to recover following the lifting of pandemic restrictions and have fallen to their lowest levels in decades, BBC analysis suggests. Jon Kelly spent a week travelling on one typical route - the number 16 from Perth to Dundee - to find out what happens when the buses stop running.
One chilly Tuesday evening, Robyn Christie Clarke tentatively makes her way along the uneven grass verge of a slip-road towards her bus stop. Traffic thunders beside her, but what worries Robyn most is whether the number 16B will turn up to take her home this time.
Until a month ago Robyn, 24, from Inchture in Perth and Kinross, was a nursery nurse at Dundee's Ninewells Hospital - but the erratic bus service, plagued by driver shortages and cancellations, meant she could never be sure of making it to her shifts on time.
So instead she found a job with regular hours as an invoicing clerk in Longforgan, the next village along the A90 road. Her dad can give her a lift in the morning. But after work, she is still left with the fear of being left stranded.
"I look at the Stagecoach app thinking: 'Please turn up - otherwise I'm not going to get home,'" she says. "It plays on my mind, especially now that it's getting darker and I'm out here in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Dai Corner]

I had a look at the timetable for the 16B.

16B - Perth Mill Street F - Dundee City Centre Bus Station

Stagecoach East Scotland

bustimes.org

On Tuesdays it leaves Longforgan for Inchture at 2049, 2159 and 2324. Unusual working hours for an invoicing clerk?

 

[Megafuss]

I had a look at the timetable for the 16B.

16B - Perth Mill Street F - Dundee City Centre Bus Station

Stagecoach East Scotland

bustimes.org

On Tuesdays it leaves Longforgan for Inchture at 2049, 2159 and 2324. Unusual working hours for an invoicing clerk?

It's the nursery nurse that uses the 16B, not the civil servent.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's the nursery nurse that uses the 16B, not the civil servent.

The former nursery nurse is now an invoicing clerk. There's nothing in the article about a civil servant.

Anyway, has anyone watched the programme and did it give any statistics or data on cancellations?

It's about two miles between the two villages which in theory should be walkable. However I wouldn't want to do so along the A90, a fast dual carriageway. Does anyone local know if there's a better walking route?

 

[SLC001]

OP is spot on. Nothing new and is only one example of what any sane person would suspect. I subscribe to Buses magazine, and it is so negative and depressing. Politicians sounding off for votes without understanding the realities of bus operation, operators struggling to run services in a commercial world etc. It is interesting where commercial reality goes out the window, bus drivers in London get 10% pay rises and others elsewhere - well I doubt it is 10%.

 

[johncrossley]

The BBC must have a different idea of " hidden" to mine, what I suspect they mean is it doesn't affect them in London.

Bus cuts: The UK’s hidden transport crisis – seen from the number 16 bus

A week travelling on a typical route shows what happens to the country when the buses stop running.

www.bbc.co.uk

If you read the article, you can see why they say it is 'hidden'. It is true that problems with bus services rarely generate national headlines, therefore 'hidden'. For most people, especially outside London, buses are largely irrelevant. The vast majority of people hardly use buses at all, and a lot of people never use them.

Unlike rail strikes or disruption at airports, problems with bus services rarely generate national headlines.
And yet they remain the UK's most-used form of public transport. People from lower-income households are more likely to take the bus to work than those from higher-earning homes, official figures show. Any effort to cut emissions by boosting public transport will have to take all this into account.
Spend time in any community social media group and you will find stories like Robyn's replicated up and down the country.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

The BBC must have a different idea of " hidden" to mine, what I suspect they mean is it doesn't affect them in London.

Bus cuts: The UK’s hidden transport crisis – seen from the number 16 bus

A week travelling on a typical route shows what happens to the country when the buses stop running.

www.bbc.co.uk

You might find this interesting? @PaulMc7

 

[Ken H]

As if this is a new problem. Read ab out urban bus transport since WW2 and you see how it went
Bus operating staff were paid more. National agreements caused problems for operators.
legislation - Bus staff working hours were reduced
Cost of vehicles and fuel rose
Declining ridership as people got cars, especially from about 1960
Dispersal of housing and jobs in the cities. Housing became more dispersed as we moved into estates with low density housing. Jobs moved out from the city into industrial estates in the summer. So there was not a mass movement each day into and out from the city centre.
There was a further shift in society as people didn't want to work unsocial hours shifts, especially when they could get the same money working 9-5. The move to working from home (WFH) started with reliable broadband. But COVID proved it was a viable way of working and it took off - and now many jobs are advertised as WFH or hybrid. Its a genie that wont go back in the bottle.

Public ownership wont help. Staff will still shun unsocial hours, and people still wont ride buses as they don't need to travel. The municipals were struggling in the 50's and 60's. why would they do well now?

 

[Geordie driver]

If you read the article, you can see why they say it is 'hidden'. It is true that problems with bus services rarely generate national headlines, therefore 'hidden'. For most people, especially outside London, buses are largely irrelevant. The vast majority of people hardly use buses at all, and a lot of people never use them.

Clearly I read he article before posting it.
The reasons you have given are as specious as the BBC's idea of hidden, one wonders if you use the same dictionary?

 

[AVK17]

The former nursery nurse is now an invoicing clerk. There's nothing in the article about a civil servant.

Anyway, has anyone watched the programme and did it give any statistics or data on cancellations?

It's about two miles between the two villages which in theory should be walkable. However I wouldn't want to do so along the A90, a fast dual carriageway. Does anyone local know if there's a better walking route?

The article also discusses a Civil Servant from Errol who gets the 0554 service to Dundee, which is due to be scrapped. He doesn’t drive so won’t be able to get to work.

The A90 doesn’t have a continuous pavement between Longforgan and Inchture villages so would be very dangerous, especially in the dark. The walking route is via Castle Huntly and the ‘Low Carse Road’ as per this screenshot from Google Maps:



(ignore the red marker at Broomhall Feeds, I had to insert that to get Google Maps to show the route)

 

[Ken H]

Buses are not generally seen as anything to do with national politics. local politicians try to get involved with buses. Tracey Brabin in West Yorks and Andy Burnham in Gtr Manchester both think local authority involvement will be some sort of magic bullet.

 

[Dai Corner]

The article also discusses a Civil Servant from Errol who gets the 0554 service to Dundee, which is due to be scrapped. He doesn’t drive so won’t be able to get to work.

Oops.i didn't scroll down far enough

 

[Ken H]

The article also discusses a Civil Servant from Errol who gets the 0554 service to Dundee, which is due to be scrapped. He doesn’t drive so won’t be able to get to work.

...

So he gets a job in Errol or moves to Dundee. Or learns to drive if he can.
People who live in the country have to use their own resources. There is frequently nothing else.

 

[GusB]

So he gets a job in Errol or moves to Dundee. Or learns to drive if he can.
People who live in the country have to use their own resources. There is frequently nothing else.

Clearly you didn't actually read the article - if you had, you would have discovered that:

After he was diagnosed with diabetes, Allan's doctor advised him to give up driving, so the cut means he will be unable to get to the office on time.

There is still a later bus on that route, but it doesn't get him to Dundee before 8am when he starts work. I would hope that his employer would be sympathetic and perhaps allow him to start at 9am, but it's the DWP so I wouldn't hold my breath!

I don't think it's very helpful to suggest that he either gets a job in Errol (likely impossible) or moves to Dundee (possibly unaffordable). Stagecoach did exactly the same on my local route; it used to be that I could get into town for an 8am start, but this is no longer possible as they cut the earliest bus from the timetable. I would have to get a car, but this the very thing that we should be trying to discourage!

 

[PTR 444]

What’s remarkable is that the communities affected are actually no more than a couple of miles from the Perth - Dundee railway line. Could the withdrawal of local bus provision prompt the authorities to consider opening an Errol Parkway station along the route so cut-off people at least don’t have to travel so far (or pay so much for a taxi each day)?

 

[duncanp]

I had a look at the timetable for the 16B.

16B - Perth Mill Street F - Dundee City Centre Bus Station

Stagecoach East Scotland

bustimes.org

On Tuesdays it leaves Longforgan for Inchture at 2049, 2159 and 2324. Unusual working hours for an invoicing clerk?

There is an hourly service on a separate route 16 Dundee - Perth during the day.

This is one problem with bustimes.org, it treats related routes (eg. the 16 and 16B in this case) as if they were completely separate routes.

 

[Ken H]

Clearly you didn't actually read the article - if you had, you would have discovered that:


There is still a later bus on that route, but it doesn't get him to Dundee before 8am when he starts work. I would hope that his employer would be sympathetic and perhaps allow him to start at 9am, but it's the DWP so I wouldn't hold my breath!

I don't think it's very helpful to suggest that he either gets a job in Errol (likely impossible) or moves to Dundee (possibly unaffordable). Stagecoach did exactly the same on my local route; it used to be that I could get into town for an 8am start, but this is no longer possible as they cut the earliest bus from the timetable. I would have to get a car, but this the very thing that we should be trying to discourage!

There are many people stranded in rural communities and probably quite a few that drive who probably shouldn't, but we can't run buses with 1 or 2 people on them.
How that works out for the guy who works in Dundee I don't know, but his employer should be able to make things work for him. An employment tribunal would expect that.

 

[InOban]

One issue with supporting the service is that it crosses from one local authority into another. And as for suggesting that people move nearer their work, it is quite possible that other members of the household work locally.
And while there was a last-minute extension to government support in England, the ScoGov had already emptied their contingency on pay increases to NHS and railway staff and were unable to do so..

 

[PTR 444]

There are many people stranded in rural communities and probably quite a few that drive who probably shouldn't, but we can't run buses with 1 or 2 people on them.
How that works out for the guy who works in Dundee I don't know, but his employer should be able to make things work for him. An employment tribunal would expect that.

Maybe subsidising local taxi journeys could work? I've started a thread on it here:

Should local authorities subsidise taxi journeys in areas without public transport?

Even as somebody who would desire for every single village in the UK to be connected by a regular, secure bus service, I recognise that this is just not financially possible and the situation is highly unlikely to improve with dwindling passenger numbers and staff shortages. DRT is an option...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Dai Corner]

There is an hourly service on a separate route 16 Dundee - Perth during the day.

This is one problem with bustimes.org, it treats related routes (eg. the 16 and 16B in this case) as if they were completely separate routes.

Yes, but the article specifically says she the passenger was waiting for the 16B, meaning she didn't finish work until maybe 2040, having started 'in the morning' when her father dropped her off. If I was cynical I'd say they'd gone to the stop to film after dark to exaggerate the impression given.

 

[317 forever]

I was in Dundee on Saturday September 17th and coincidentally, concluded my bus travels with route 16 from Ninefields Hospital to Dundee bus station.

This was only because the X7 due about 15 minutes earlier did not turn up. (I had already done the Xplore Dundee buses of interest by then).

 

[PaulMc7]

You might find this interesting? @PaulMc7

Thank you for this. I'm not surprised it's related to a Stagecoach service as some of their cuts are particularly brutal although it's sadly needed. I'd expect so many more areas to go the same way soon.

 

[Sm5]

I just read the article. At the very bottom of the page under related articles it lists:

Buses in 'crisis' as 3,000 routes reduced or scrapped

More than 3,000 services have been cut back or withdrawn, the Campaign for Better Transport says.

www.bbc.co.uk

July 2018

and

Britain's bus coverage hits 28-year low

Some rural areas have even gone as far as setting up their own replacement bus services.

www.bbc.co.uk

February 2018

This problem is
a. Nothing new
b. Exacerbated by, but not due to covid
c. Like many BBC hard luck articles, its predominantly about wanting tax payer money to maintain a service.

 

[reb0118]

Could the...authorities to consider opening an Errol... station along the route so cut-off people at least don’t have to travel so far?

I believe the platforms are still there at Errol Station - although they might need a bit more gravel. IBM aside I think Errol was one of the last stations closed in Scotland.

 

[PTR 444]

I believe the platforms are still there at Errol Station - although they might need a bit more gravel. IBM aside I think Errol was one of the last stations closed in Scotland.

Interesting. What was the reason for it closing in the first place?

 

[GusB]

The subject of Errol station is one that should be discussed in another section of the forum.

Try Railway History and Nostalgia for questions about the old station, or Speculative Discussion for suggesting a new one.

 

[Tayway]

The 16 used to be half-hourly until not so long ago – like many routes around here it's very much a "death by a thousand cuts" situation, where a few journeys get removed every so often, and before you know it the whole route is withdrawn due to low usage.

 

[WAB]

The 16 used to be half-hourly until not so long ago – like many routes around here it's very much a "death by a thousand cuts" situation, where a few journeys get removed every so often, and before you know it the whole route is withdrawn due to low usage.

Yep, as soon as the frequency drops below a certain amount, and early-morning/late-evening/night/Sunday/direct services start going, then the bus quickly becomes nothing but a last resort. Certainly not a substitute for the car at any rate.

 

[ajrm]

The 16 used to be half-hourly until not so long ago – like many routes around here it's very much a "death by a thousand cuts" situation, where a few journeys get removed every so often, and before you know it the whole route is withdrawn due to low usage.

That's not quite the whole story though. The 16 ran on an hourly frequency throughout the 80s and 90s. The frequency was doubled after Stagecoach bought Strathtay (with whom they had previously shared the running of the route). Since then, the 333 and later the X7 have provided an additional more direct link between Dundee and Perth that hadn't existed before.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Like many BBC hard luck articles, its predominantly about wanting tax payer money to maintain a service.

Is that a bad thing? And if you think it is, why?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

Yep, as soon as the frequency drops below a certain amount, and early-morning/late-evening/night/Sunday/direct services start going, then the bus quickly becomes nothing but a last resort.

Indeed, it ends up being a death of a thousand cuts. Where my parents live between Halifax and Bradford used to have a last bus at about 11.10pm, so when I went out for a drink with my dad we took the bus. The last bus is now 10.10, so we get a lift down and a taxi back.

Operators seem to be operating 8-6 Monday-Saturday in many areas now, fine for the twirlies on their free bus passes but not much use for people who work.