LNER A4s in service.

[L+Y]

Slightly but I hope not wildly O/T. I'm sure I've seen a photo of an A4 on the XP64 rake, deputising for a failed Deltic- presumably in 1964. Did this ever happen, or is it a false memory?

 

[Harvester]

Slightly but I hope not wildly O/T. I'm sure I've seen a photo of an A4 on the XP64 rake, deputising for a failed Deltic- presumably in 1964. Did this ever happen, or is it a false memory?

The XP64 stock entered service on the ECML in June 1964 at the start of the summer timetable. By that time Gateshead had only one A4 (60001), the other survivors were based in Scotland at St Rollox (65B) and Ferryhill (61B), or in store at other Scottish locations. Also between June and it’s withdrawal in October 1964, 60001 saw little use on passenger workings. So it seems that an A4 working a XP64 rake on the ECML in 1964 was indeed unlikely!

 

[E27007]

Bill remained convinced that on the 1959 run, when 112.5 was achieved down Stoke Bank, that he could have got to 126 and beyond had he not been told to slow down. 100 was the maximum that had been agreed but Bill turned a blind eye to that. His reasoning was that he'd got 60007 over the top of Stoke Bank faster than 4468 in 1938 and thus was in better shape to go for the record. We will never know of course.

Is it true that the A4s were at their technical peak after BR Doncaster set about correcting the design faults, corrections to equalise output of the three cylinders, and to the steam ports and passages to improve the steam flow?

 

[DerekC]

In older times on the ECML the loco segments were Kings Cross-Grantham-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh. Each was (very roughly) 100 miles, and a 200 mile round trip for a steam loco crew, especially an express fireman, was a substantial day's work. Likewise Kings Cross-Grantham-Leeds. Mallard itself was long a Grantham loco.

I believe the union agreement was something like 120 miles was a good day's work, and beyond this was paid a bonus of something like an hour's extra pay for every 15 miles beyond the 120. Someone will have the numbers. So not only was it hard work, but could cause rivalry at the shed with others, whether in the top link or not, who didn't get such jobs. Most crews, especially on freight, were lucky to even get 120 miles in a shift.

Newcastle to Grantham and back is 165 miles each way, 330 miles round trip in a single day, way beyond what the Flying Scotsman nonstop crews used to do, which was about 200 miles each in a day. On those figures above you can see how the crew would be not only exceptionally paid, but also exceptionally fatigued at the end.

It's interesting that bonuses were paid on miles run. That must have worked out quite unfairly for some freight crews - for example firing a 9F making 45mph up the Long Drag with a heavy freight must have been pretty much the same hard work as firing an A4 at 90mph on ECML, but you are only covering half the miles.

 

[D6968]

It's interesting that bonuses were paid on miles run. That must have worked out quite unfairly for some freight crews - for example firing a 9F making 45mph up the Long Drag with a heavy freight must have been pretty much the same hard work as firing an A4 at 90mph on ECML, but you are only covering half the miles.

Depends what depot the 9F was from, the Saltley-Carlisle via Leeds job was I think the longest lodging turn in the country at one point during BR steam days plenty of OT on that job!

 

[Magdalia]

I believe the union agreement was something like 120 miles was a good day's work, and beyond this was paid a bonus of something like an hour's extra pay for every 15 miles beyond the 120. Someone will have the numbers. So not only was it hard work, but could cause rivalry at the shed with others, whether in the top link or not, who didn't get such jobs. Most crews, especially on freight, were lucky to even get 120 miles in a shift.

"Mileage turns" still existed long after steam had finished. Drivers I knew at Cambridge in the 1970s told me that the threshold was 200 miles so a "double London" qualified but Cambridge-Kings Lynn-Liverpool Street-Cambridge did not.

 

[Spamcan81]

Is it true that the A4s were at their technical peak after BR Doncaster set about correcting the design faults, corrections to equalise output of the three cylinders, and to the steam ports and passages to improve the steam flow?

The A4s as built already had a good front end with streamlined steam passages. The four with double Kylchap front ends improved on that and in the mid/late 50s all the remaining A4s were similarly modified. All the indicator diagrams I've seen in books show that output was never equal across all three cylinders of the Pacifics be they Gresely, Thompson or Peppercorn. The trial that saw a few A4s with their middle cylinders sleeved up to reduce power output of that cylinder was discontinues and AFAIK all returned to normal and the next overhaul. One improvement was an early post nationalisation redesign of the big end which was successful and reduced dramatically the number of middle big end failures. The A4s were really on top of their form once these modifications were made but you must not forget the wonderful performances they put in during their pre war LNER days when coal was better and a dedicated maintenance regime was available. 2509's press run in September 1935 stands head and shoulders above most runs by steam in this country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

No. The A4 that day was 60001. I didn't mistake or misremember that! I saw the SLS special too, in the evening on the up return. At Sandy.

I wonder if the GER 0-6-0s had come from Ipswich or maybe Lowestoft? Not only was the Leicester line open in 63-4, but they could also have gone west via Wellingborough. It's possible they were going to Cransley (Kettering) I suppose, which might, just, have been easier to diagram via Bedford St Johns and then across to the Midland.

I've consulted an ECML oracle and they have no record of 60001 working the southern end of the line in 1964. The last A4 working that he knows of in the area prior to 60009's rail tour in October 1964 was 60023 on 3E05 up parcels in November 1963. Which Leicester line out of Sandy are you thinking of?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

He'd have a job as she was withdrawn in 1965. Pretty sure steam on the Glasgow - Aberdeen runs ended at the end of the '65 summer timetable.

To offer him the benefit of the doubt maybe a typo?

 

[E27007]

The A4s as built already had a good front end with streamlined steam passages. The four with double Kylchap front ends improved on that and in the mid/late 50s all the remaining A4s were similarly modified. All the indicator diagrams I've seen in books show that output was never equal across all three cylinders of the Pacifics be they Gresely, Thompson or Peppercorn. The trial that saw a few A4s with their middle cylinders sleeved up to reduce power output of that cylinder was discontinues and AFAIK all returned to normal and the next overhaul. One improvement was an early post nationalisation redesign of the big end which was successful and reduced dramatically the number of middle big end failures. The A4s were really on top of their form once these modifications were made but you must not forget the wonderful performances they put in during their pre war LNER days when coal was better and a dedicated maintenance regime was available. 2509's press run in September 1935 stands head and shoulders above most runs by steam in this country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

Silver Link, my late mother had fond memories of the A4s,especially Silver Link, Grandfather was a Boilersmith at the Works, the cash-strapped LNER had him and others short time working for a very long time , the family were so penniless, her siblings were sent away to be raised by relatives. Silver Link and others, the construction came from Govt funds. GF was back to full-time working after years of poverty, Silver Link was one of his!
I think the A4s were designed in a hurry, it was said new Boilers were seasoned for two years at the Plant, stored outside in the weather to settle and acquire a decent seal of rust to make them steam-tight.
How new was the A4 boiler design? Was it entirely new or a carcase shared with other LNER Pacifics? In which case could the A4 Boiler for Silver Link have been drawn from a stockpile of weather-seasoned boilers?

 

[Taunton]

I think the A4s were designed in a hurry,

I once read an account that Gresley didn't do full engineering drawings for the A4 streamlining, but just stood in the works and instructed the plater by eye how to arrange the shape. I have to say that, especially for someone of Gresley's detailed engineering background, I found that rather far-fetched.

 

[Spamcan81]

Silver Link, my late mother had fond memories of the A4s,especially Silver Link, Grandfather was a Boilersmith at the Works, the cash-strapped LNER had him and others short time working for a very long time , the family were so penniless, her siblings were sent away to be raised by relatives. Silver Link and others, the construction came from Govt funds. GF was back to full-time working after years of poverty, Silver Link was one of his!
I think the A4s were designed in a hurry, it was said new Boilers were seasoned for two years at the Plant, stored outside in the weather to settle and acquire a decent seal of rust to make them steam-tight.
How new was the A4 boiler design? Was it entirely new or a carcase shared with other LNER Pacifics? In which case could the A4 Boiler for Silver Link have been drawn from a stockpile of weather-seasoned boilers?

Do not confuse the rapid progress the LNER made with getting the first A4 out of the shops with it being done "in a hurry". Apart from a problem with the brick arch at the beginning of the Silver Jubilee service - the arch was rebuilt overnight - 2509 ran perfectly and did all the trains herself for a fortnight or so until 2510 was ready for traffic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

I once read an account that Gresley didn't do full engineering drawings for the A4 streamlining, but just stood in the works and instructed the plater by eye how to arrange the shape. I have to say that, especially for someone of Gresley's detailed engineering background, I found that rather far-fetched.

The streamlining for the A4s was thoroughly tested with models in a wind tunnel so the "instruction by eye" is almost certainly an urban myth.

 

[Bevan Price]

Silver Link, my late mother had fond memories of the A4s,especially Silver Link, Grandfather was a Boilersmith at the Works, the cash-strapped LNER had him and others short time working for a very long time , the family were so penniless, her siblings were sent away to be raised by relatives. Silver Link and others, the construction came from Govt funds. GF was back to full-time working after years of poverty, Silver Link was one of his!
I think the A4s were designed in a hurry, it was said new Boilers were seasoned for two years at the Plant, stored outside in the weather to settle and acquire a decent seal of rust to make them steam-tight.
How new was the A4 boiler design? Was it entirely new or a carcase shared with other LNER Pacifics? In which case could the A4 Boiler for Silver Link have been drawn from a stockpile of weather-seasoned boilers?

The A4 boiler was basically the same boiler as on earlier Gresley Pacifics, but modified to operate at higher pressures. In later years. identical boilers were often interchanged between A4s and A3s.

 

[D6968]

The A4 boiler was basically the same boiler as on earlier Gresley Pacifics, but modified to operate at higher pressures. In later years. identical boilers were often interchanged between A4s and A3s.

I believe a certain A3 carried an ex A4 boiler which has since now been sold back to an A4 owner.

 

[oldman]

The streamlining for the A4s was thoroughly tested with models in a wind tunnel so the "instruction by eye" is almost certainly an urban myth.

There is a description in the RCTS green books, vol. 2A p.93, which suggests an element of this. Refering to the 'shape of the casings over the wheels', it includes 'the smith formed the shape of the angle irons on the spot and Gresley gave his approval'.

On page 92 it says that the working drawings for the front used the wrong radius but were not changed.

 

[E27007]

I believe a certain A3 carried an ex A4 boiler which has since now been sold back to an A4 owner.

Does anyone have any images of the spare boiler purchased by Alan Pegler. The boiler was carried on a wagon and was stored in the Civil Engineers Sidings at 36A Doncaster Carr Loco depot for many years.

 

[Harvester]

Does anyone have any images of the spare boiler purchased by Alan Pegler. The boiler was carried on a wagon and was stored in the Civil Engineers Sidings at 36A Doncaster Carr Loco depot for many years.

The spare boiler he purchased in 1966, came from withdrawn A3 60041. This boiler was stored at Carnforth for some years in the 1970s, and I can remember photographing it there, but the slides are long lost. When was it stored at Doncaster?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've consulted an ECML oracle and they have no record of 60001 working the southern end of the line in 1964. The last A4 working that he knows of in the area prior to 60009's rail tour in October 1964 was 60023 on 3E05 up parcels in November 1963.

Yes, it seems unlikely I saw 60001 in 64, I agree. I guess it must have been in 63.

Which Leicester line out of Sandy are you thinking of?

Misunderstanding. There is/was no Leicester line out of Sandy, of course. I was referring as to why the GE 0-6-0 cavalcade had been sent via Cambridge and the Bedford branch. If they had been in store at March, it would have been easier to send them west via the Melton and Leicester route - that was my original thought. But in 1963 and even in 64 the Nene Valley route would also have been available to get them to the Midland line (if that was where they were heading), except it would have needed a reversal to get into Wellingborough.

However, I don't know exactly where they were heading.

 

[Spamcan81]

The A4 boiler was basically the same boiler as on earlier Gresley Pacifics, but modified to operate at higher pressures. In later years. identical boilers were often interchanged between A4s and A3s.

Longer combustion chamber on the A4 firebox, hence shorter boiler tubes. According to Peter Townend in his book Top Shed, the first they need about an A3 being fitted with an A4 boiler was after one had returned from overhaul at Doncaster was when they went to replace some tubes in an A3 only to find out the tubes were too long.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've consulted an ECML oracle and they have no record of 60001 working the southern end of the line in 1964. The last A4 working that he knows of in the area prior to 60009's rail tour in October 1964 was 60023 on 3E05 up parcels in November 1963.

If A4s (or any pacific, come to that) were so incredibly rare in the south by 64, maybe my sighting of 60001 was in summer 63. What I do remember is the shock of seeing it at all - I mean, steam seemed to have met its end already, which is why, so long later, I thought it was 64. Can we say an A4 on a scheduled service in May or June 63 was already 'highly unusual' ?

This would fit in better with the fact that the GE 0-6-0s were going for scrap - even if they were the last of the last.

Oh, if only I had those logbooks!

 

[Taunton]

The only one I saw in service ... at a junior age, we were visiting London, I guess it must have been 1962 (could have it been 1963? You tell me). Allowed a trip to ONE station for half an hour, chose Kings Cross, went to the end of platform 8, it was the evening peak, there was a whole range of diesels (I recall one coming at speed out of the Widened Lines, also the only Baby Deltic I ever saw), quad-art coaches - and then a green A4 backed down right beside us all, got everyone's attention, and took a train out, likely an intermediate semi fast. Only steam loco there. Must have been about 5pm. Name long forgotten, except it wasn't one of the celebrities.

Any ideas which train?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The only one I saw in service ... at a junior age, we were visiting London, I guess it must have been 1962 (could have it been 1963? You tell me). Allowed a trip to ONE station for half an hour, chose Kings Cross, went to the end of platform 8, it was the evening peak, there was a whole range of diesels (I recall one coming at speed out of the Widened Lines, also the only Baby Deltic I ever saw), quad-art coaches - and then a green A4 backed down right beside us all, got everyone's attention, and took a train out, likely an intermediate semi fast. Only steam loco there. Must have been about 5pm. Name long forgotten, except it wasn't one of the celebrities.

Any ideas which train?

Well, my memory is not that reliable (or at least my assessment, as proven by this thread ) - but if you only say one steam loco at the Cross in the evening peak, you must have been near the end of regular steam. I'm pretty sure that there were plenty of steam workings still in 1962, but in the autumn (as I remember) the first of the D15xx arrived, and I think that must have signalled the final phase of sweeping out regular steam, bar failures and the reliefs at holiday times.

So my guess is that you were there sometime in the first half of 63, and I suspect that the final pacific working(s) was one of the evening stopping services to Peterboro or Grantham. (I think there were two.) In the up they were usually a Grantham, and later (after Grantham closed) a New England A3 or A2, if I remember correctly. I certainly saw A3s* on these trains when on the ECML in the mornings. I don't know the exact stopping patterns, probably fast to Hitchen, then Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterboro'.

* Based upon the fact that I had an awful photo, taken with my mother's box camera, of one of these trains with an A3 and German smoke deflectors - Pretty Polly or some such - at Sandy one morning, probably 62.

But I suspect someone will know better than me and confirm or correct.

 

[Harvester]

Can we say an A4 on a scheduled service in May or June 63 was already 'highly unusual' ?

Top Shed had some steam passenger diagrams until it’s closure on Sunday 16th June 1963, so 34A allocated A4s would be seen daily between Kings Cross and Peterborough until then. From the start of the summer timetable (17 June 63) a steam ban came into force on the ECML south of Peterborough so scheduled steam workings ceased, but steam substitutes were fairly common.

The last report I can find of 60001 working up to London is in the Railway Observer. It worked a Newcastle to Kings Cross relief on Maundy Thursday 11 April 1963.

The only one I saw in service ... at a junior age, we were visiting London, I guess it must have been 1962 (could have it been 1963? You tell me). Allowed a trip to ONE station for half an hour, chose Kings Cross, went to the end of platform 8, it was the evening peak, there was a whole range of diesels (I recall one coming at speed out of the Widened Lines, also the only Baby Deltic I ever saw), quad-art coaches - and then a green A4 backed down right beside us all, got everyone's attention, and took a train out, likely an intermediate semi fast. Only steam loco there. Must have been about 5pm. Name long forgotten, except it wasn't one of the celebrities.

Any ideas which train?

The Baby Deltic is a clue to the year; - 1962. All ten were stored out of use by May/June 1963, prior to being sent to Doncaster for refurbishment.

 

[Enthusiast]

I believe the union agreement was something like 120 miles was a good day's work,

I think there was also an overriding agreement that a single fireman should not be expected to shovel more that 3,000 lbs of coal an hour. This must have been extremely hard work, amounting to almost half a hundredweight a minute. This does seem to line up with a run on the Elizabethan, where 3,000 lbs of coal an hour would mean the loco consuming around 8.7 tons on the six and a half hour trip.

NOTE: for younger viewers, a hundredweight is 112 pounds (abbreviated as lbs), with 20 of them making a ton (2,240 lbs). I'll leave you to convert those pounds into those new fangled kilogram thingies.

 

[Spamcan81]

Top Shed had some steam passenger diagrams until it’s closure on Sunday 16th June 1963, so 34A allocated A4s would be seen daily between Kings Cross and Peterborough until then. From the start of the summer timetable (17 June 63) a steam ban came into force on the ECML south of Peterborough so scheduled steam workings ceased, but steam substitutes were fairly common.

The last report I can find of 60001 working up to London is in the Railway Observer. It worked a Newcastle to Kings Cross relief on Maundy Thursday 11 April 1963.

The Baby Deltic is a clue to the year; - 1962. All ten were stored out of use by May/June 1963, prior to being sent to Doncaster for refurbishment.

The 1963 steam ban south of Peterborough only applied to passenger workings. Steam hauled freights ran until the end of the ‘64 summer timetable. Locos came off at Hitchin with diesel haulage south of there.

 

[Taunton]

NOTE: for younger viewers, a hundredweight is 112 pounds (abbreviated as lbs), with 20 of them making a ton (2,240 lbs). I'll leave you to convert those pounds into those new fangled kilogram thingies.

And a hundredweight is abbreviated as "cwt", which also takes some understanding. Coal was commonly measured in it, as it classically came in hundredweight sacks, about as much as a muscular labourer could carry over their shoulders. Buses had their weight shown on the side in 'tons' and 'cwt', the latter which I long in early childhood days thought was pronounced as "suit".

 

[hexagon789]

I'll leave you to convert those pounds into those new fangled kilogram thingies.

I always remember it as 2.2lbs to a kg

 

[E27007]

Considering the Peppercorn A1 as the final development of the Gresley 3-cylinder concept, the A1 Drawing Office replaced the Gresley conjugated valve drive with Walschaerts drive.
If the A4s had received a mid-life upgrade, is it feasible the A4 may have received Walscaerts too, and in general terms how would an A4 perform in terms of speed economy and shopping intervals with Walschaerts, and also if the frames were adapted for Roller Bearings on the Driving wheels?

 

[Taunton]

I believe that roller bearings do not give any friction reduction or other mechanical advantage. Their key upside, compared to traditional bearings, is they are far more reliable and less prone to failure.

 

[The Crab]

I t

Depends what depot the 9F was from, the Saltley-Carlisle via Leeds job was I think the longest lodging turn in the country at one point during BR steam days plenty of OT on that job!

I think, but I am not sure, that overtime was traded off against mileage. So if you ran 45 miles over and worked 3 hours overtime, you got nothing for mileage.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe that roller bearings do not give any friction reduction or other mechanical advantage. Their key upside, compared to traditional bearings, is they are far more reliable and less prone to failure.

I believe a plain journal bearing, when it is 'up and running' on a wedge of lubricant is wonderfully efficient. But getting it there it has to overcome friction. ITYWF a locomotive on roller bearings has far lower starting friction, as I believe one shed found out when one of the Stanier pacifics so fitted gently rolled into something (the buffer stops?) one day when not properly secured. (May be apocryphal.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2022 ==

Top Shed had some steam passenger diagrams until it’s closure on Sunday 16th June 1963, so 34A allocated A4s would be seen daily between Kings Cross and Peterborough until then. From the start of the summer timetable (17 June 63) a steam ban came into force on the ECML south of Peterborough so scheduled steam workings ceased, but steam substitutes were fairly common.

The last report I can find of 60001 working up to London is in the Railway Observer. It worked a Newcastle to Kings Cross relief on Maundy Thursday 11 April 1963.

It is possible that I caught it's return the next week, I suppose. (I wasn't there over the Easter holiday, I'm fairly sure.) I have a feeling it was later, however, more like May or June.

The Baby Deltic is a clue to the year; - 1962. All ten were stored out of use by May/June 1963, prior to being sent to Doncaster for refurbishment.

Well, if those dates for the Baby Deltics are correct, it could have been in the first part of 1963 too, as I posited.