Future of Class 379

[Doomotron]

Only for it’s mates and donors. I don’t think this government will ever find a magic money tree for the railways.

They found a very big one for HS2, and East West Rail, and Crossrail...

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

So other than Great Northern to replace the class 387 units, which could then go South to Southern. Where could the class 379's go if not to either Northern or WMR?

I doubt that they could get used by Scotrail and there is not enough electrification in Wales for them to be used by Transport for Wales, with all the new trains that are arriving there.

The only other possibility I see is if they are converted to 3rd rail and have the ability to work as well with either battery/hydrogen to replace the class 158/159 units with SWR. But I suspect the cost of that will prohibit it from happening. So the only real path left is for them to be scrapped, which seems a shame.

They could go to GWR - there's a tender for 30 x 4-coach 110mph EMU's that I believe are required to both provide the same capacity and do the same job as the 387's.

 

[RobShipway]

They could go to GWR - there's a tender for 30 x 4-coach 110mph EMU's that I believe are required to both provide the same capacity and do the same job as the 387's.

I believe many in the thread believe that the class 379's will not go to GWR and that it is just GWR's way of getting a better price for the class 387 fleet that they are leasing.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I believe many in the thread believe that the class 379's will not go to GWR and that it is just GWR's way of getting a better price for the class 387 fleet that they are leasing.

Ah right . Best to keep the 387's as you never know how reliable the 379's will be! We all know what their new trains introduction was like about 4/5 years ago.

 

[Mamorin]

They found a very big one for HS2, and East West Rail, and Crossrail...

CrossRail and HS2 were already being worked on before the pandemic, and I don’t know wether East West Rail will ever get anywhere near finshed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

They could go to GWR - there's a tender for 30 x 4-coach 110mph EMU's that I believe are required to both provide the same capacity and do the same job as the 387's.

The 387s are staying with GWR.

As has been proven by a tender for maintenance of the 387s which can be found on page 5 of this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

the class 379's will not go to GWR and that it is just GWR's way of getting a better price for the class 387 fleet that they are leasing.

Modern Railways August issue confirms that GWR were only going to take the 379s if they were cheeper than the 387s.

 

[Mikey C]

Modern Railways August issue confirms that GWR were only going to take the 379s if they were cheeper than the 387s.

The 379s should be cheaper than the 387s if the leasing company has any brain cells.

Surely they must realise that a reduced fee is better than zero income, and an eventual one way trip to the scrapyard. These aren't aging units which have already earned their keep for the owners, they'll be worth a lot of money on the balance sheet still.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 379s should be cheaper than the 387s if the leasing company has any brain cells.

Surely they must realise that a reduced fee is better than zero income, and an eventual one way trip to the scrapyard. These aren't aging units which have already earned their keep for the owners, they'll be worth a lot of money on the balance sheet still.

Presumably, though, they just tender their sealed bids without any way of knowing which will be cheaper until they are opened? I don't think this sort of thing is done like an auction.

 

[ashkeba]

The 379s should be cheaper than the 387s if the leasing company has any brain cells.

Surely they must realise that a reduced fee is better than zero income, and an eventual one way trip to the scrapyard. These aren't aging units which have already earned their keep for the owners, they'll be worth a lot of money on the balance sheet still.

Is it about brain cells or the interest rates on the loans that funded them? 379s were bought at a bad time of high rates, weren't they?

 

[Energy]

Presumably, though, they just tender their sealed bids without any way of knowing which will be cheaper until they are opened? I don't think this sort of thing is done like an auction.

If Akiem knew how much Porterbrook had bid then something has gone very wrong.

Is it about brain cells or the interest rates on the loans that funded them? 379s were bought at a bad time of high rates, weren't they?

Refinancing is an option.

The 379s can spend a couple years in warm store if needed. 379s not only need to be cheaper but cheaper enough to justify the conversion course and slight change in maintanence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside I wonder why open auctioning isn't used for this sort of thing? It would bring lower prices, and would probably have avoided the nonsense with the 350/2s as their owner would have counterbid lower.

 

[Mikey C]

Is it about brain cells or the interest rates on the loans that funded them? 379s were bought at a bad time of high rates, weren't they?

All the time those trains are sitting in storage, the owners are paying those high interest rates, with NO income. And indeed paying storage charges on top.

Any income, even if it means making a small loss on these trains, is better than the current situation!

 

[RailWonderer]

The way rolling stock is bid on needs to change if we are going to have any efficiency, otherwise good trains will go for scrap when they could be put to good use at the right price for everyone. Refinancing and open auctioning would work but this system has been in place since privitisation and these things don't change unless the government decides to examine a case of market failure. This will only happen once good rolling stock goes for scrap and outcry follows.

 

[RobShipway]

I doubt that they will do it, but could the Government take ownership of the class 379 units in the same way that was done previously with the class 365 units?

 

[43102EMR]

I doubt that they will do it, but could the Government take ownership of the class 379 units in the same way that was done previously with the class 365 units?

Was a different situation with the 365s - as they were built in the period during the transfer to privatisation, there was a clause in the contract that meant in the event they weren’t to be used, the Government would take ownership from Eversholt. Someone else will be able to explain better than me though!

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well on Facebook. I saw a picture of a load of 379s being idle in Norwich doing nothing.

 

[Mamorin]

That is what they are doing these days, just sitting in storage. Seen many a photo of 379s sat in storage.

 

[Mamorin]

From the latest issue of Rail regarding the 379s. Given some units may need a costly overhaul before they can return to passenger service I can see the 379s bring scrapped.

 

[JonathanH]

From the latest issue of Rail regarding the 379s. Given some units may need a costly overhaul before they can return to passenger service I can see the 379s bring scrapped.

Parking them up next to the sea was not, in hindsight, the best idea if they wanted the units to see further use, although I suspect they were expecting the period out of service to be shorter when they were initially withdrawn.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

From the latest issue of Rail regarding the 379s. Given some units may need a costly overhaul before they can return to passenger service I can see the 379s bring scrapped.

Well being scrapped. Akiem could sell their set of 379s but as I see it, 379s have lost a lot of value and the management at Akiem must be hanging their heads in shame.

 

[JonathanH]

the management at Akiem must be hanging their heads in shame

Huh? They have an asset that no one wants to buy.

Happens all the time. Just because they are trains doesn't make the asset special. Are owners of vacant office blocks or shop units 'hanging their heads in shame' or just getting on with other parts of their business?

 

[Jturner98]

Not strictly relevant to the forum but does anyone know what else Akiem actually own? As far as I thought it was only the 379s.

 

[JonathanH]

Not strictly relevant to the forum but does anyone know what else Akiem actually own? As far as I thought it was only the 379s.

In the UK in unit terms, yes, the 120 class 379 carriages. Elsewhere, their website indicates that they own around 620 locomotives, including the Freightliner class 70s, and a further fleet of passenger vehicles.

https://www.akiem.com/en/fleet/5804-2/

Our fleet comprises a mix of new and recent locomotives. Whether new or older, our rigorously maintained units fully comply with all regulatory and infrastructure requirements applicable to each rail network you want to operate on. Whatever your needs, uses or restrictions, we work with you to create the solution that suits you best and meets your full requirements.

 

[Mamorin]

but as I see it, 379s have lost a lot of value

Given the condition that Rail reports some 379s are in, the 379s may have lost some value but by how much I can’t say.

 

[317 forever]

In an ideal world the 379s and 350/2s could directly or indirectly replace older stock such as 313s and 323s. However, these older units are tied into leases with TOCs. Plus, with reduced commuting due to work from home we have an unforeseen pre-Covid surplus of some train types.

 

[Mamorin]

It is a shame the 379s are in storage when older stock like the 313s and 323s are still in service.

Sadly we don’t live in an ideal world, if Covid had not happened perhaps the 379s would have found a new home by now.

Can’t see the 379s getting a new home now given the reported bad condition some of the fleet is in unless the leasing company takes a huge haircut on the leasing cost.

 

[43102EMR]

I’m still confident that one way or another, the 19 stored elsewhere will find a new home, although I am beginning to question the 11 at Harwich as unless a TOC is looking at them long-term, I highly doubt the costs will be incurred to make them operational again.

 

[JonathanH]

In an ideal world the 379s and 350/2s could directly or indirectly replace older stock such as 313s and 323s. However, these older units are tied into leases with TOCs. Plus, with reduced commuting due to work from home we have an unforeseen pre-Covid surplus of some train types.

No they couldn't, even in an 'ideal world'. It has been explained many times that neither the 379s or 350/2s are appropriate to replace the 323s, and neither is there an indirect possibility. It has equally been noted that there is already a plan to replace the 313s, that is just stalling on movements of other stock.

I’m still confident that one way or another, the 19 stored elsewhere will find a new home, although I am beginning to question the 11 at Harwich as unless a TOC is looking at them long-term, I highly doubt the costs will be incurred to make them operational again.

The other 19 are stored in the open as well of course and aren't exactly being kept 'warm'. No doubt they also need an overhaul.

 

[Mamorin]

If the whole fleet needs an overhaul to return to passenger service then there is no way a new home will be found, at least not at the leasing cost the leasing company apparently want.

 

[43096]

Well being scrapped. Akiem could sell their set of 379s but as I see it, 379s have lost a lot of value and the management at Akiem must be hanging their heads in shame.

Akiem bought the 379s as part of a bigger acquisition and they were very much an incidental part of that: they are not core to its business. They would have been aware of the risk of them not being re-leased and priced it in. Hardly “hanging their heads in shame”.

 

[dk1]

The other 19 are stored in the open as well of course and aren't exactly being kept 'warm'. No doubt they also need an overhaul.

The four stored in the Wensum Sidings at Crown Point are moved about & brought under the wires every so often. An 08 currently sit in there with them for company.