Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.

[brad465]

Mini-budget u-turn incoming according to Bloomberg:

https://twitter.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1580525584907587584

NEW: Officials in Downing Street are working on a U-turn on Liz Truss's tax plans, but no decisions will be made before Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng gets back from the IMF in Washington

 

[dosxuk]

no decisions will be made before Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng gets back from the IMF in Washington

Well I think we can guess who won that argument then...

 

[david1212]

I highly doubt the tories will agree to an early election. They know the game is over and they won't be doing anything to give up power that easily. It would require a large number of tory MPs voting to force an election they know they wil most likely lose. The party always puts itself first so we can forget about an early GE.

Likewise. While a proportion of MP's are significantly out of tune with Truss as things are now they know the result would be a Labour landslide.

.....
It certainly doesn't make Truss look competent by appointing a hard-right, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-immigrationist like Braverman. If she had any sense she'd have appointed a middle-of-the-road figure who doesn't have an "attitude" towards immigration that might disrupt such trade deals. They clearly have not learnt from Patel (or don't want to).

The same applies to much of the current cabinet. The core reason in the end Johnson had to go was not his policies and cabinet but Partygate mixed with other issues like the funding of the refurbishment of the Downing Street flat.

The route has to be to remove Truss as PM and replace her with someone middle-of-the-road who will bring back a cabinet including most of those who were in it at the start of this year.

Given Truss was chosen over Sunak not by MP's but the party members I wonder if they could re-run the process how many would vote differently second time around?

 

[takno]

Likewise. While a proportion of MP's are significantly out of tune with Truss as things are now they know the result would be a Labour landslide.



The same applies to much of the current cabinet. The core reason in the end Johnson had to go was not his policies and cabinet but Partygate mixed with other issues like the funding of the refurbishment of the Downing Street flat.

The route has to be to remove Truss as PM and replace her with someone middle-of-the-road who will bring back a cabinet including most of those who were in it at the start of this year.

Given Truss was chosen over Sunak not by MP's but the party members I wonder if they could re-run the process how many would vote differently second time around?

To be fair Johnson's cabinet was fantastically awful by any historical standards. People like Patel, Rees-Mogg and Raab were notably dreadful at their jobs, and even Sunak was barely above Lamont levels of incompetence.

The fact that the current cabinet is effortlessly less competent is truly a testament to Liz's ineptitude, but that doesn't mean that Johnson's cabinet are the sort of people you'd want kept behind an emergency smash-panel marked "cabinet of last resort".

 

[brad465]

Football club Chair announces the manager has their full backing...before proceeding to sack them the next day:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1580551200386097152

ERG chair ark Francoise at Downing Street gates tells Sky News Liz Truss has his full support.

 

[GS250]

To be fair Johnson's cabinet was fantastically awful by any historical standards. People like Patel, Rees-Mogg and Raab were notably dreadful at their jobs, and even Sunak was barely above Lamont levels of incompetence.

The fact that the current cabinet is effortlessly less competent is truly a testament to Liz's ineptitude, but that doesn't mean that Johnson's cabinet are the sort of people you'd want kept behind an emergency smash-panel marked "cabinet of last resort".

The most effective cabinet was probably David Cameron's as both coalition and majority. Whatever your misgivings of Cameron and his ridiculous assumption regarding the likely referendum result, his mob tended to get things done without that much fuss. Again though, it was our relationship with the EU that ultimately brought him down as it has done so many other Tories. Once he lashed out at those voters deserting to UKIP...his goose was pretty much cooked.

 

[jfollows]

To be fair Johnson's cabinet was fantastically awful by any historical standards. People like Patel, Rees-Mogg and Raab were notably dreadful at their jobs, and even Sunak was barely above Lamont levels of incompetence.

The fact that the current cabinet is effortlessly less competent is truly a testament to Liz's ineptitude, but that doesn't mean that Johnson's cabinet are the sort of people you'd want kept behind an emergency smash-panel marked "cabinet of last resort".

I agree, Liz Truss made the mistake of appointing "supporters" to her cabinet rather than people who had competence. Quite how she made this mistake after it was obviously a mistake for Boris to have done the same thing .... means nothing, because what's pretty obvious to those of us outside the bubble peering in is completely misunderstood by the people inside the bubble.

 

[Typhoon]

Football club Chair announces the manager has their full backing...before proceeding to sack them the next day:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1580551200386097152

ERG chair ark Francoise at Downing Street gates tells Sky News Liz Truss has his full support.

ark Francois - a Freudian slip surely, that is where his views originate!

I agree, Liz Truss made the mistake of appointing "supporters" to her cabinet rather than people who had competence. Quite how she made this mistake after it was obviously a mistake for Boris to have done the same thing .... means nothing, because what's pretty obvious to those of us outside the bubble peering in is completely misunderstood by the people inside the bubble.

The difference was that Johnson excluded them on ideological grounds (those who voted to remain and did not recant of their sins). Truss excluded them because they did not back her or gave them low level jobs. She needs to remember a wise saying

SARAH VINE: Liz Truss has broken the first rule of politics. Keep your friends close but your enemies (like my former husband) closer​

From https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...le-politics-friends-close-enemies-closer.html and quoted on Have I got New for You.

 

[MikeWM]

I agree, Liz Truss made the mistake of appointing "supporters" to her cabinet rather than people who had competence. Quite how she made this mistake after it was obviously a mistake for Boris to have done the same thing .... means nothing, because what's pretty obvious to those of us outside the bubble peering in is completely misunderstood by the people inside the bubble.

I agree that being too narrow in her cabinet composition hasn't helped, but that seems to be more about ideology than competence - unless the suggestion is that many of the people left out were 'competent', which given we're presumably talking about people like Patel, Dorries, Raab and Shapps, 'competence' wouldn't be one of the first words to spring to mind...

One of the (many) problems with contemporary politics is that we don't have many competent people at all to choose from anymore. The Tories don't have the same quality of people to draw on that Thatcher or Major had. Nor do Labour, for that matter, if you compare to say the early cabinets of Blair - politics in general has become massively diminished in recent years. Does anyone see anyone in the Labour shadow cabinet - assuming they can name any of them! - that they're particularly keen to see take up offices of state?

 

[jfollows]

Does anyone see anyone in the Labour shadow cabinet - assuming they can name any of them! - that they're particularly keen to see take up offices of state?

Wes Streeting has impressed me, I followed a bill in which I was interested because it affected an organisation I used to work for - the Higher Education and Research Act 2017 - and he was a major contributor to the opposition to this in committee and elsewhere, I felt he was competent and measured. Since then he's moved on to greater things and although some of his work has been against an open goal I've been happy, I'd rather see him in office than the current incumbent of whatever office.
Currently Thérèse Coffey I guess.

 

[MikeWM]

Wes Streeting has impressed me, I followed a bill in which I was interested because it affected an organisation I used to work for - the Higher Education and Research Act 2017 - and he was a major contributor to the opposition to this in committee and elsewhere, I felt he was competent and measured. Since then he's moved on to greater things and although some of his work has been against an open goal I've been happy, I'd rather see him in office than the current incumbent of whatever office.
Currently Thérèse Coffey I guess.

He's one of the few I could name, and personally I think he's about as bad as it gets. He's a Blairite - the last thing we need is another of those! - who had a terrible record as NUS president, undermined the party leadership continually since being elected as an MP, and as shadow health secretary opposed pretty much every relaxation of covid restrictions and/or continually called for further restrictions. And he called Christopher Chope - the only MP in the House of Commons raising the issue of justice for those injured or killed by the covid vaccines - an 'anti-science extremist' for doing so.

I'd far rather have Coffey than him at health. I think I'd actually rather have Hancock back than him, and that's really saying something.

 

[birchesgreen]

Galba, surely. Firstly, I've heard of him (and I suspect that Truss will remain long in the memory for all the wrong reasons, in the same way that Chamberlain is; although there the comparison ends.) Secondly, I don't think Truss plotted Johnson's downfall, he is responsible for that.

Well she did do some prep work for her leadership campaign a long time before Johnson fell on his plastic fork. I wouldn't truss her thats for sure.

 

[najaB]

Rumours making the rounds that they are going to give her the push before she has a chance to jump (or drive the bus off the cliff with all of them on board).

Apparently there's been a request made for the 1922 Committee to change the rule stopping a leader from being deposed during their first 12 months. Then they would have a single-candidate leadership contest, which would mean that they wouldn't have to go to the party members.

 

[MikeWM]

Rumours making the rounds that they are going to give her the push before she has a chance to jump (or drive the bus off the cliff with all of them on board).

Apparently there's been a request made for the 1922 Committee to change the rule stopping a leader from being deposed during their first 12 months. Then they would have a single-candidate leadership contest, which would mean that they wouldn't have to go to the party members.

Well, that'll satisfy those who said a ballot of 160,000 people wasn't sufficiently democratic! A ballot of zero people is obviously preferable...

I think we - though Tory MPs in particular - need to take a deep breath and get a grip. This is getting very silly.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Rumours making the rounds that they are going to give her the push before she has a chance to jump (or drive the bus off the cliff with all of them on board).

Apparently there's been a request made for the 1922 Committee to change the rule stopping a leader from being deposed during their first 12 months. Then they would have a single-candidate leadership contest, which would mean that they wouldn't have to go to the party members.

They would have to call a GE if they go down this road, surely? The public will just see a leader imposed upon them. If it's Boris Johnson...

 

[birchesgreen]

You'd be pretty annoyed if you were a Tory party member and they pulled this job (even if you had been a Sunak supporter). I know i'd be pretty miffed if they did this with my party (the other lot).

 

[najaB]

They would have to call a GE if they go down this road, surely?

There would be no legal requirement for a GE, but it would be very difficult to justify not holding one. I expect that if they did this the line would be "Caretaker PM to get us through the winter".

 

[GS250]

They would have to call a GE if they go down this road, surely? The public will just see a leader imposed upon them. If it's Boris Johnson...

I reckon it will be too.....

 

[MikeWM]

They would have to call a GE if they go down this road, surely? The public will just see a leader imposed upon them. If it's Boris Johnson...

Arguably if it were Johnson, that would be the one case where there *wasn't* a strong reason for a GE After all that was what was voted for at the last GE...

Nevertheless, this isn't going to happen. As I said a few posts back, the MPs just need to get a grip and stop being so silly.

 

[Acfb]

........

 

[yorksrob]

Well, that'll satisfy those who said a ballot of 160,000 people wasn't sufficiently democratic! A ballot of zero people is obviously preferable...

I think we - though Tory MPs in particular - need to take a deep breath and get a grip. This is getting very silly.

Nonsense. If the current leadership won't reverse this course of action, MP's need to get rid.

 

[nw1]

They would have to call a GE if they go down this road, surely? The public will just see a leader imposed upon them. If it's Boris Johnson...

Indeed. At least Truss and Johnson were subject to an election, of sorts.

Though to be quite frank the only election that will resolve this mess is a general election.

Realistically, I can actually see the Tory leadership wanting to keep Truss on for the winter. That way she gets all the flak for what are likely to be the worst months of the cost of living crisis.

 

[najaB]

Realistically, I can actually see the Tory leadership wanting to keep Truss on for the winter. That way she gets all the flak for what are likely to be the worst months of the cost of living crisis.

The problem is, she has the annoying habit of speaking and what comes out makes them all look bad.

 

[david1212]

To be fair Johnson's cabinet was fantastically awful by any historical standards. People like Patel, Rees-Mogg and Raab were notably dreadful at their jobs, and even Sunak was barely above Lamont levels of incompetence.

The fact that the current cabinet is effortlessly less competent is truly a testament to Liz's ineptitude, but that doesn't mean that Johnson's cabinet are the sort of people you'd want kept behind an emergency smash-panel marked "cabinet of last resort".

I can't argue with your statement.

The issue is from the current Tory MP's realistically could Johnson or had he been elected as PM Sunak have chosen a cabinet that would have been significantly more competent? The problem starts down the chain with those who put themselves forward as candidates.

The problem is the same with local councils. More than once people have suggested I stand. If I would be with a team of similar minded people with the primary objective of delivering the best value service possible within the budget rather than those either on a ego trip or with ' personal interests ' I would seriously consider. A few years ago I had a ' run-in ' with the local council leader over the quoted costs of refurbishing the existing HQ building making this uneconomic by suggesting everything must be being gold-plated and the proposed extravagant plans for a new HQ building.

 

[najaB]

Current BBC News headline:

I'm not going anywhere, says chancellor

So new Chancellor by next week then?

 

[nw1]

Current BBC News headline:

So new Chancellor by next week then?

Will it be a record for short tenure if he goes?

 

[najaB]

Will it be a record for short tenure if he goes?

Pretty sure that Nadhim Zahawi holds the record currently, a day over two months.

 

[MikeWM]

Nonsense. If the current leadership won't reverse this course of action, MP's need to get rid.

What 'course of action'? Most of what she has done so far was explicitly set out during her leadership campaign, and is in the spirit (if not the detail, which you can't expect nearly 3 years into a Parliament) of the Tory 2019 manifesto, which won them a healthy majority. I didn't vote for it, but here we are.

Yes, the 45p thing was poor politics, and the u-turn even more damaging, but it seems highly extreme to try to remove someone from power after just a few weeks over that.

This seems remarkably like a (yet another) confected 'crisis'. When you've got Tory backbenchers revolting to demand that corporation tax is *increased*, it is clear this isn't an ideological matter but rather politics - and remarkably frantic and unedifying politics at that.

 

[najaB]

What 'course of action'?

Mainly proposing to undo the protections put in place to prevent a second financial crisis, forcing out the senior civil servant in the Treasury and then refusing to let the OBR prepare a report on the mini budget, which was so bad that it almost collapsed the UK pensions market, putting forth plans to allow fracking despite even the main company involved in it saying that has zero chance of providing any useful amount of gas, massively increasing Government borrowing to protect the profit margins of oil companies and tanking the value of the pound.

Other than that, not much.

 

[yorksrob]

What 'course of action'? Most of what she has done so far was explicitly set out during her leadership campaign, and is in the spirit (if not the detail, which you can't expect nearly 3 years into a Parliament) of the Tory 2019 manifesto, which won them a healthy majority. I didn't vote for it, but here we are.

Yes, the 45p thing was poor politics, and the u-turn even more damaging, but it seems highly extreme to try to remove someone from power after just a few weeks over that.

This seems remarkably like a (yet another) confected 'crisis'. When you've got Tory backbenchers revolting to demand that corporation tax is *increased*, it is clear this isn't an ideological matter but rather politics - and remarkably frantic and unedifying politics at that.

Primarily increasing borrowing to fund an untargeted tax cut.

If they want to introduce radical policies, they should put them to the whole electorate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

Indeed. At least Truss and Johnson were subject to an election, of sorts.

Though to be quite frank the only election that will resolve this mess is a general election.

Realistically, I can actually see the Tory leadership wanting to keep Truss on for the winter. That way she gets all the flak for what are likely to be the worst months of the cost of living crisis.

At least MP's are elected by the general public. Having them choose the leader of the country seems more democratic than allowing party members, who have only been elected by themselves, to choose the leader.