Attitudes to ticketless travel

[Tetchytyke]

I see you've said that most people are honest, when reading this section of the forum out of the people who have been caught you see very few people who have accidentally had an invalid ticket and many more people who have deliberately tried to fare evade

As a subset of everyone on the trains, or even of people on this forum, it's a small proportion.

There's also a lot of posts in this section from people who made an honest mistake, declined to pay a Penalty Fare as they felt they'd done nothing wrong, and are now being pursued for a "settlement" in the mid three figures.

I'd agree that people are tempted to be casually dishonest for what they see as a) a victimless crime and b) sticking it back to The Man who is ripping them off. But I'm not convinced that treating everyone who makes a mistake as a cad and a chancer does anyone any good. If anything, it just encourages (b). Especially as there aren't any sanctions when the industry makes a mistake, e.g. when a Penalty Fare is overturned on appeal.

Personally, I'd have the first PF as a recorded warning, escalating each time one "makes a mistake" in a rolling period. And if/when GBR becomes a thing, that should help with data sharing and fare evasion intelligence.

And I'd ban bottom-feeders and parasites like Transport Investigations from the industry.

 

[L401CJF]

I had a guy on my train earlier today, he was in his late 20s I'd say. He gets trainline up and immediately said "I've accidentally bought a child ticket".

I thought oh no here we go.. let's see where this goes.

He then said as a child fare is exactly half the adult fare on that journey he bought a second one as soon as he had realised the mistake. So he had paid the right amount, just with 2 child tickets instead of one adult.

I scanned both, both bought before boarding and seemed genuine. His mate had the correct full price ticket which was indeed the same as 2 child fares.

As it was only a short hop with no barriers, I let it slide. 10/10 for honesty and just told him to make sure he buys the right one next time. Fair play for making some effort!

 

[Chucky]

I nearly said this a few posts up. Just have a type of Permit to Travel

You could go huge distances on a 5p permit to travel in the nineties. Especially in the evenings or at weekends. In many cases it was literally impossible to buy a ticket. Things have improved since then with regards to e-ticketing, if not with ticket office hours and staffing levels. But (whatever the rights and wrongs of it) its easy to see why so many people attempt to dodge their fare when huge swathes of the network are totally unstaffed (or the staff aren't visible) fares aren't cheap, and at least half the guards (where provided) can't be bothered to leave the back cab. I'm not saying it's right, but you can see why so many people chance it. If they get eventually get caught though they can have no complaints.

I'd be interested to hear the stats of how many people steal stuff from supermarket self checkouts

I'm told by a friend who works in Sainsbury's that theft from self -service tills is sky high. They've factored in that it's more economical to lose what they do through dishonesty than it is to employ enough humans to staff the same number of tills.

The weighing everything as carrots, scanning a cheap bottle of wine while putting a dear one in the bag, putting two items in the bag for every one item they scan. There's loads of scams and the staff know them all. Whether or not they can be bothered or feel confident enough to challenge them is another story. Especially in the low-staffed "Local" where my friend works. Another common one she told me is for people to fill up a basket with items and then put it directly into the food bank donation without paying for it. It's not technically stealing because the person hasn't taken the items out of the shop. She reckons at least half of what's in the food bank hasn't been paid for, but the staff don't take it out because it's charity and in that area lots of families are reliant on food banks.

 

[Njal]

Another common one she told me is for people to fill up a basket with items and then put it directly into the food bank donation without paying for it. It's not technically stealing because the person hasn't taken the items out of the shop.

Sounds like theft to me!

Theft Act 1968

(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.

 

[Gloster]

In my local Morrison’s the security staff normally hang around at the end of the self-scan area, presumably to watch for any fiddles. However, they are often much too busy chatting.

Although I might sympathise with those who put a basket’s worth of stuff in the foodbank collection point it is still theft. The shopper has taken possession of the goods without paying for them: that they don’t retain the goods for themselves is irrelevant.

 

[Haywain]

I'm told by a friend who works in Sainsbury's that theft from self -service tills is sky high. They've factored in that it's more economical to lose what they do through dishonesty than it is to employ enough humans to staff the same number of tills.

All those people probably self justify their actions by thinking they're "giving it to the man", or saving money from the rip-off prices and the supermarkets can afford to lose it. The reality is that the supermarkets have factored it in and we all pay a bit more as a result (especially those who do not act so dishonestly).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like theft to me!

Theft Act 1968

(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.

It certainly does, but it is a bit like when Clarkson was signed up for charity direct debits by someone else when he was shouting about "if I publish my bank details there's not a lot you can do with them" - he left them in place as to do otherwise would have been seen badly, even though he could have reversed them under the Direct Debit Guarantee (which is why telling others your sort code and account number isn't really a risk). The value of the poor publicity from the Sun running a story of "X prosecuted for putting stuff in food bank" would not be worth £20 worth of groceries.

 

[Kilopylae]

The reality is that the vast majority of fare dodgers on the railway are druggies, scummers

The notion that anyone is a 'scummer' and the stereotypes you obviously hold about drug addicts express precisely the backwards attitude that you are denying the railway holds

But of course it’s the myth of the big bad railway criminalising innocent travellers that’s jumped all over on here. Never mind the revenue lost to fare evasion.

There is a moral difference between an individual doing something which is normal in their (sub)culture and causes little direct harm to anyone and a faceless institution (which from the passenger perspective, 'the railway' or 'the system' is) treating someone like a knowing criminal for something which they know full well isn't seen that way by a lot of people.

That’s about as useful as saying: “I have more sympathy for people who shoplift from Waitrose, than from Aldi”.

The difference being that choosing Waitrose over Aldi is purely about preference and prestige, never necessity. It's more like saying you have more sympathy with people who shoplift food or nappies during a cost of living crisis than people who shoplift them when they could have afforded to pay. I for one do.

 

[43066]

The notion that anyone is a 'scummer' and the stereotypes you obviously hold about drug addicts express precisely the backwards attitude that you are denying the railway holds

I must say, the above seems very self righteous. Having seen the disgusting way many of these people behave I stand by my view. If you have an addiction, get help. If you resort to crime whether that’s stealing, assaulting others etc. to feed it then you’ve crossed a line and you deserve to be punished. If you consider that view “backwards”, it matters not one jot to me.

There is a moral difference between an individual doing something which is normal in their (sub)culture and causes little direct harm to anyone and a faceless institution (which from the passenger perspective, 'the railway' or 'the system' is) treating someone like a knowing criminal for something which they know full well isn't seen that way by a lot of people.

I disagree. In this country we are all required to obey the law, which is universal for everyone. You don’t get to pick and choose which laws to obey based on your view of morality or your “sub culture”. You might choose to “opt out” or disagree with said laws as a self styled anarchist or similar, but if you contravene them you’ll still be punished.

If you don’t want to submit to railway by laws, simply don’t use it.

The difference being that choosing Waitrose over Aldi is purely about preference and prestige, never necessity. It's more like saying you have more sympathy with people who shoplift food or nappies during a cost of living crisis than people who shoplift them when they could have afforded to pay. I for one do.

Necessity might be relevant in the tiny numbers of cases where people are escaping domestic violence, or whatever. It certainly doesn’t cover using the railway because it’s more convenient than other methods of transport, but not paying for it.

Plenty of people are having a hard time at the moment and wouldn’t dream of shoplifting.

 

[Ediswan]

Necessity might be relevant in the tiny numbers of cases where people are escaping domestic violence, or whatever. It certainly doesn’t cover using the railway because it’s more convenient than other methods of transport, but not paying for it.

Rail to Refuge

Rail to Refuge is a joint initiative between rail companies and Women’s Aid in which train operators cover the cost of train tickets for women, men and children escaping domestic abuse travelling to refuge accommodation.

 

[43066]

Rail to Refuge

Indeed, that’s what I had in mind. That (excellent) scheme certainly doesn’t cover druggies’ and scroungers’ fare dodging!

 

[mangyiscute]

I disagree. In this country we are all required to obey the law, which is universal for everyone. You don’t get to pick and choose which laws to obey based on your view of morality or your “sub culture”. You might choose to “opt out” or disagree with said laws as a self styled anarchist or similar, but if you contravene them you’ll still be punished.

I have to disagree - just because something is law doesn't mean that it is "right" - in some countries same-sex relationships are not allowed, or women cannot go out in public all the time etc, which is clearly wrong. The law should not always be the be all and end all

 

[43066]

I have to disagree - just because something is law doesn't mean that it is "right" - in some countries same-sex relationships are not allowed, or women cannot go out in public all the time etc, which is clearly wrong. The law should not always be the be all and end all

That’s true, although I’d suggest laws against stealing train rides are hardly in the same category!

The point is you will be punished if you flout the law. Ignorance of the law, or disagreement with the law on moral grounds, isn’t a defence.

 

[centraltrains]

There was a YouTube video published last Sunday (currently at ~650k views) where a man tries to get from Brighton to Scotland for free, however part of the method is fare evading on trains. I won't link the video as I don't want to encourage them with further traffic.

I was disgusted by his action, but was surprised to read some of t he comments:

<youtuber> literally put so much in this video and all his other videos. Lets get him to 1M!!!

<youtuber> is literally the friend everybody wants to have!

The fact that he isn’t in jail yet for Doing these stuff is amazing!

he’s always been a legend

You are recording you doing crimes but I love it

I find it concerning that it seems people are seeing glamor in this fare evading (and disappointing but unsurprised that YouTube and a sponsor support this kind of content).

 

[BJames]

There was a YouTube video published last Sunday (currently at ~650k views) where a man tries to get from Brighton to Scotland for free, however part of the method is fare evading on trains. I won't link the video as I don't want to encourage them with further traffic.

I was disgusted by his action, but was surprised to read some of t he comments:










I find it concerning that it seems people are seeing glamor in this fare evading (and disappointing but unsurprised that YouTube and a sponsor support this kind of content).

There are copious TikTok videos of people "bumping" the barriers at stations on a daily basis. There was one particularly notable character who has been taken off TikTok now because he was actually using these videos as a method to gain followers before then pivoting to "Day in the life of a fraudster" instead. He bragged about not paying, walking away from inspectors, giving false details, etc. There was another more recently (I tried to find the account but I can't quite remember the name) who the whole account revolved around his followers telling him different stations to go to to see if he could bunk the stations' barriers without being stopped. I do think the actual act of recording crime is peculiar but each to their own...

 

[mangyiscute]

There was a YouTube video published last Sunday (currently at ~650k views) where a man tries to get from Brighton to Scotland for free, however part of the method is fare evading on trains. I won't link the video as I don't want to encourage them with further traffic.

I was disgusted by his action, but was surprised to read some of t he comments:










I find it concerning that it seems people are seeing glamor in this fare evading (and disappointing but unsurprised that YouTube and a sponsor support this kind of content).

And the worst part is when he reached Heathrow, he forced someone else to pay a fare for him and didn't get a free transfer ticket to bypass the ticket barriers, even though he clearly showed he was very happy to break the law and take trains for free later. I've reported the video now, but as you said I highly doubt youtube will do anything

 

[Kilopylae]

There was a YouTube video published last Sunday (currently at ~650k views) where a man tries to get from Brighton to Scotland for free, however part of the method is fare evading on trains. I won't link the video as I don't want to encourage them with further traffic.

I was disgusted by his action, but was surprised to read some of t he comments:

I find it concerning that it seems people are seeing glamor in this fare evading (and disappointing but unsurprised that YouTube and a sponsor support this kind of content).

This kind of obnoxious law-breaking to be "cool" is the worst. How some find fun in an over-privileged YouTuber showing off like that is a mystery to me - and the video presentation style is always always so 'in your face' as well

 

[BJames]

This kind of obnoxious law-breaking to be "cool" is the worst. How some find fun in an over-privileged YouTuber showing off like that is a mystery to me - and the video presentation style is always always so 'in your face' as well

I do find the presentation particularly difficult to watch I agree. Also on that video I don't know if anyone else noticed but the toilet he went into on the 222 at St Pancras was not a 222 toilet (I noticed the lock)

And the worst part is when he reached Heathrow, he forced someone else to pay a fare for him and didn't get a free transfer ticket to bypass the ticket barriers, even though he clearly showed he was very happy to break the law and take trains for free later. I've reported the video now, but as you said I highly doubt youtube will do anything

While very kind of the member of the public to buy him a ticket for his "challenge", it is a bit strange that he didn't just walk through the barrier like he did at St Pancras where there are also members of staff, given that he just ran off from the coach driver and security.

I don't think it's wrong to share it here if anyone else is interested and can't find it, as it is pertinent to the discussion around ticketless travel (and while I note @centraltrains point about not wanting to encourage web traffic, this video has already been viewed 696K times at time of writing, so I think that ship has sailed somewhat and we are not viewing it from a fan perspective).

 

[AlterEgo]

I do find the presentation particularly difficult to watch I agree. Also on that video I don't know if anyone else noticed but the toilet he went into on the 222 at St Pancras was not a 222 toilet (I noticed the lock)

It was for a sponsored segment of the video, which will have been filmed separately. 4:48 onwards marks the cut. Unfortunately he hasn't harnessed the magic of continuity editing and his hair is totally different, although he is wearing a black shirt and has the same backpack. Notices inside the "222 lav" are in Spanish.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The reality is that the supermarkets have factored it in and we all pay a bit more as a result (especially those who do not act so dishonestly)

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg situation, that. If thefts/losses/breakages are less than budgeted for, does the supermarket reduce prices or just pocket the cash?

It's the same on the railways. TOCs who increase fare revenue by effective revenue protection don't reduce fares, they pocket the profit for themselves.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that- they're businesses, they benefit from their efficiencies- but it undermines the "we all pay more" argument.

 

[Watershed]

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg situation, that. If thefts/losses/breakages are less than budgeted for, does the supermarket reduce prices or just pocket the cash?

It's the same on the railways. TOCs who increase fare revenue by effective revenue protection don't reduce fares, they pocket the profit for themselves.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that- they're businesses, they benefit from their efficiencies- but it undermines the "we all pay more" argument.

Exactly. The level of fare increases has nothing to do with the level of fare evasion; it is purely a political matter and ends up being RPI plus or minus whatever percentage the government decides.

Now that all "franchised" TOCs are on management contracts, there's an argument to say that fare evasion is akin to tax evasion, as it directly impacts the revenue the government receives - whereas before Covid, it was merely reducing the profits of the TOCs. I don't think anything really turns on this point though.

 

[Wolfie]

I had a guy on my train earlier today, he was in his late 20s I'd say. He gets trainline up and immediately said "I've accidentally bought a child ticket".

I thought oh no here we go.. let's see where this goes.

He then said as a child fare is exactly half the adult fare on that journey he bought a second one as soon as he had realised the mistake. So he had paid the right amount, just with 2 child tickets instead of one adult.

I scanned both, both bought before boarding and seemed genuine. His mate had the correct full price ticket which was indeed the same as 2 child fares.

As it was only a short hop with no barriers, I let it slide. 10/10 for honesty and just told him to make sure he buys the right one next time. Fair play for making some effort!

That seems, given that there was no cost to the railway, like eminently sensible staffing. Well done sir.

 

[WesternLancer]

Notices inside the "222 lav" are in Spanish.

 

[Wolfie]

There are copious TikTok videos of people "bumping" the barriers at stations on a daily basis. There was one particularly notable character who has been taken off TikTok now because he was actually using these videos as a method to gain followers before then pivoting to "Day in the life of a fraudster" instead. He bragged about not paying, walking away from inspectors, giving false details, etc. There was another more recently (I tried to find the account but I can't quite remember the name) who the whole account revolved around his followers telling him different stations to go to to see if he could bunk the stations' barriers without being stopped. I do think the actual act of recording crime is peculiar but each to their own...

Since he kindly boasted about his lawbreaking BTP charging him would send a definite message to a certain subset of society.

 

[WesternLancer]

Since he kindly boasted about his lawbreaking BTP charging him would send a definite message to a certain subset of society.

BTP could do a tiktok video of apprehending and charging him, with regular updates on video eg a bit of time waiting in cells, court appearance, sentencing etc etc

 

[Gloster]

Since he kindly boasted about his lawbreaking BTP charging him would send a definite message to a certain subset of society.

And you would probably get on-line petitions, trolling, e-mail bombardment and idiot ‘celebrities’ pontificating that he ought to be let off because he’s ‘funny’. His ‘fans‘ would no doubt make a lot of noise, although hopefully their short attention spans would mean that they moved on to something else in a week.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Think it’s worth mentioning that another youtuber who does “straight line” missions did one where he attempted to cross scotland in a perfectly straight line. At some point in the video, they had to cross the Stirling - Glasgow/Falkirk line (at an unauthorised point) and in the original edit it showed them crossing it. He got a visit from the BTP(?, could have been regular police) and was told the equivalent of “remove the footage of you crossing the railway or we’ll do you for it”. Video re-uploaded with the railway crossing removed and all sorted.

I know it’s not ‘ticketless travel’ but it shows the BTP will step in, and they probably should here

 

[Watershed]

Think it’s worth mentioning that another youtuber who does “straight line” missions did one where he attempted to cross scotland in a perfectly straight line. At some point in the video, they had to cross the Stirling - Glasgow/Falkirk line (at an unauthorised point) and in the original edit it showed them crossing it. He got a visit from the BTP(?, could have been regular police) and was told the equivalent of “remove the footage of you crossing the railway or we’ll do you for it”. Video re-uploaded with the railway crossing removed and all sorted.

I know it’s not ‘ticketless travel’ but it shows the BTP will step in, and they probably should here

That sounds like an empty threat to me. There's plenty of videos of railway trespass up on YouTube, which they seem to have little interest in doing anything about.

 

[Edsmith]

That sounds like an empty threat to me. There's plenty of videos of railway trespass up on YouTube, which they seem to have little interest in doing anything about.

I agree, surely the police would have to go through the courts unless YouTube agreed to remove it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, surely the police would have to go through the courts unless YouTube agreed to remove it?

Well, they *could* prosecute the person for having trespassed?