Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

[yorkie]

This thread is to enable people to post their ideas, following the news in the non-speculative thread Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended:

Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended

https://twitter.com/transcotland/status/1577624020652007424?s=46&t=PQgh7bv8yB3Wz-OIiiNxUg Serco Caledonian Sleeper’s current agreement will come to an end on 25 June 2023. @JennyGilruth says that the decision has been taken to ensure the Sleeper service represents value for money. Read more...

www.railforums.co.uk

For example, should the Caledonian Sleeper become part of Scotrail?

Should the fares be reduced or altered?

Should there be any changes to the routes?

Over to you....

 

[Blindtraveler]

If they want to make the service as unusable as possible in the shortest time possible then scrapping both the alcohol and the lounge car will be an instantaneous win for the finance director. I suppose on the face of it I should be happy that an absolutely ridiculous political decision from 2015 is being reversed 8 years or so later but honestly, given how how completely useless in my view the recently nationalised SNP rail have been at running very existing operation I can't see this move as anything more than an opportunity for them to break something else that once worked really quite well.



The shortbread tin lid experience that the sleeper has become especially since the new trains has as a vastly reduced my usage of it and in fact since the pandemic I'm only made two journeys with, one of which was carried over from pre-pandemic and rebooked several times and the other was in the seats as part of a wider long distance run from Edinburgh to Hampshire a few weeks back where are my my super flexible off-peak return routed not via London allowed me to to ride from Edinburgh to Watford and continue from there by daytime service


In short, given everything mentioned above in my own post and the the general austerity and retrenchment surrounding most things public transport right now I'd get your journey of a nighttime in sooner rather than later as after next summer the future looks bleaker than P7 at Aberdeen on a particularly vile day in midwinter

 

[popeter45]

if planned correctly savings could be made if the planned replacment if the Inter7City sets is planned with regards to the sleepers needs as well
if scotrail got somthing similar to the TPE Nova 3 sets they could share a fleet of locomotives ending the need for renting in traction power and could unify the matinence bringing down costs for both services

 

[trek]

As a starter to increase revenue:

Bring back the option for shared (single sex) cabins (perhaps in classic only) for those willing with no physical changes to the rooms required.

Personally I don't care yet am forced to take up a whole cabin when they could be selling the bed above/below me to someone else. They don't even fold up the top bunk in classic anymore anyway when solo, and the bed is made (I assume they are changing the sheets too even though no one has slept in the top bunk, more cost of washing!)

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Turn off the lights, do something about the horrible draught in the seated accommodation and crank the heating up from the miserable 13 degrees C that I experienced on my trip to Glasgow earlier this year. Never again - I would have had a more comfortable journey with more sleep at less than half the price if I'd gone by coach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Turn off the lights, do something about the horrible draught in the seated accommodation and crank the heating up from the miserable 13 degrees C that I experienced on my trip to Glasgow earlier this year. Never again - I would have had a more comfortable journey with more sleep at less than half the price if I'd gone by coach.

Does the seated coach get full? If so reseating it to 2+2 (but still with good legroom etc) may be worth considering. It is after all a budget option.

 

[Blindtraveler]

They are certainly some subtle atmospheric changes that could be made to the seat coach, not least stopping the toilet talking rubbish all night every night but as for the return of compulsory shared cabin accommodation with a financial penalty for those not wanting to share yeah I would not what wish to see this under any circumstance. I don't suppose for 1-minute it would generate a great deal of extra revenue and and the feedback done even before serco came on the scene was that people didn't want cabin share anymore. I'm fully aware that successful couchette and similar type operations operate on overnight trains elsewhere in the world and that's fine but it's not for me and not for this service. If I want to share my space with somebody else I'll book Megabus for less than a quarter of the price and have someone squished next to me


Insuring that advertised on board services such as lounge bar or restaurant and room service are available all the time would go a long way to generating not just extra revenue but good will towards the service. The current food offering isn't all that bad actually when you can get it. In the early days they went through a phase of making the menu a bit too posh and complicated but over the course of time this has settled down and is is good food and actually not what two ridiculously overpriced, given that what you're getting is a microwavable reheatable type offering. Where they could probably generate revenue and Goodwill again is the boarding and alighting times for those at terminal stations with cabin accommodation. Fully aware that this is down to platform capacity and much else but perhaps it's time for a departure from Euston followed by several hours layover in a siding somewhere before travelling on to destination giving more time in bed and more time on board to sell hotel services such as food and beverage

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Does the seated coach get full? If so reseating it to 2+2 (but still with good legroom etc) may be worth considering. It is after all a budget option.

It wasn't over-full the time I used it, mid-week in late Spring I recall. If you re-seated it to 2+2 you would end up with something even less appealing to travellers, I would have thought. They one thing the train has over the coach is the extra space and it is actually quite a premium price if you compare it with the typical coach fare.

 

[matacaster]

The Caledonian sleeper is sadly an anachronism. The subsidy is enormous and the only beneficiaries fairly wealthy people given the prices. It is sad, but its just a political football now with Sturgeon desperate to keep the flagship service. It would be better to offer normal train travelling overnight, but with lay flat or reclining seats a bar and lounge / snack facility and cheap tickets.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Anyone reckon CS would be retained as a "upmarket" offshoot of ScotRail like Night Riviera is under GWR or it could be made more budget conscious like a "night-Lumo" as the reason for CS being taken in house to save on costs so the current "perks" could get axed?

 

[JonathanH]

it could be made more budget conscious like a "night-Lumo"

There are some nights when it sells out even with the current fares. We all like to pay less for stuff but if there are people prepared to pay more, that is where the market will be.

 

[popeter45]

There are some nights when it sells out even with the current fares. We all like to pay less for stuff but if there are people prepared to pay more, that is where the market will be.

if the market is healthy enough for that you could argue for an expansion of the services then
a upmarket serivce as well as a second budget one as well

 

[JonathanH]

as a second budget one as well

That is what coaches are for.

 

[jagardner1984]

(Slight vested interest as a semi regular Sleeper user).

But wonder if you are slightly less tied to the current exact configuration, that you can play a little more with the configuration to maximise revenue. So current FTW has a GLQ pick up at 0530 or so. Current setup very fixed and non flexible.

If the service reduced to a West (FTW via Glasgow), or East (Inverness via Edinburgh) train (albeit with slightly earlier drops in Glasgow / Edinburgh and slightly later into Fort William and Inverness). Perhaps some flexibility to run 16 car directly into Edinburgh during the festival. To run an extra Seating Car into Fort William during the peak walking holiday season.

The coupling process must add a chunk of cost and service vulnerability.

In the winter, the Shetland / Orkney ferries go to every other day to facilitate maintenance. If as stated, there is such a wide disparity in Summer / Winter loading, maybe there is some mileage in either alternating Glasgow / Edinburgh single lowlander.

Similarly alternating Inverness / Aberdeen as the northbound destination.

Personally, as much as I'd prefer to see fuller public services (and yes, I'm prepared to be taxed to pay for it), in a world where there will no doubt be "spending restraint" - I'd prefer they be creative and keep some aspect of the service going, ideally at a not wildly inflated price (I've never bought into the "hotel on wheels" nonsense, but personally have always found it a pleasant, clean, time efficient, simple way to travel), than to stick resolutely to an orthodoxy of "this is the only way" and see the service quietly retired in years to come.

In terms of the HS2 conversation, until you can reliably get a train from Glasgow or Edinburgh not far before 6am, and be in London not long after 9am, I think there will still be a reasonable market for both the sleeper and early morning flights. The desire to get into GLC for 0428 is not great, for me, anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

The reason the Fort William train runs at the time it does is to a) have a path on the line to Fort William and b) arrive there mid morning rather than at lunchtime.

 

[IanH440]

Add a Bristol and Cardiff portion....

 

[busestrains]

Could the Caledonian Sleeper simply combined the Aberdeen and Inverness portions in to one service? Surely this could be a better option to keep both services going?

It could run London - Edinburgh - Falkirk - Stirling - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen - Inverness (and maybe call at some of the other intermediate stations too) which might be a better option. The stations on the direct line between Perth and Inverness are small minor towns and villages so i doubt that many passengers use them. So just combining the Aberdeen and Inverness portions like this might work well.

 

[fgwrich]

Could the Caledonian Sleeper simply combined the Aberdeen and Inverness portions in to one service? Surely this could be a better option to keep both services going?

It could run London - Edinburgh - Falkirk - Stirling - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen - Inverness (and maybe call at some of the other intermediate stations too) which might be a better option. The stations on the direct line between Perth and Inverness are small minor towns and villages so i doubt that many passengers use them. So just combining the Aberdeen and Inverness portions like this might work well.

You are forgetting the areas that some of those stations serve - Aviemore is the gateway to the Cairngorms and from my observations, is usually a fairly busy stop. Pitlochry also seems to do quite well, while Kingussie also acts as a bit of a railhead for those who’d rather drive over there from the West Highlands to catch a more frequent service into the big cities than go the slower way by train. It would also mean an earlier departure from Inverness to make it work further down the line.

 

[ajrm]

Could the Caledonian Sleeper simply combined the Aberdeen and Inverness portions in to one service? Surely this could be a better option to keep both services going?

It could run London - Edinburgh - Falkirk - Stirling - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen - Inverness (and maybe call at some of the other intermediate stations too) which might be a better option. The stations on the direct line between Perth and Inverness are small minor towns and villages so i doubt that many passengers use them. So just combining the Aberdeen and Inverness portions like this might work well.

People living in Fife might disagree!

 

[paul1609]

Aberdeen has too much hotel accommodation these days, a legacy of the glory days of North Sea oil and gas.

As for Aberdeen being dropped, it won't happen. The SNP are not going to risk the backlash in Aberdeen, especially given that the local rags are very much against independence. Don't forget that Aberdeen is also a lifeline service, as people from Orkney and Shetland can get to London with just the one easy change without flying.

The Orkney / Shetland Ferry departs at 1700/1900 and arrives at 0700 so the sleeper doesnt realistically provide any sort of connection.

 

[HSTEd]

There is no way Aberdeen is getting dropped without serious backlash.

We are trying to grow rail travel up here, not diminish it further. It’s already miles off where it needs to be.

If you want to grow rail travel subsidising this sleeper service is possibly the worst way I can think of to do it in terms of spending on the railway.

 

[JamieL]

If you want to grow rail travel subsidising this sleeper service is possibly the worst way I can think of to do it in terms of spending on the railway.

Why? The sleeper provides an important service- the opportunity for overnight travel is a real time saver and it provides easy access to London from across central and northern Scotland. Looking at it in purely cost terms is wrong.

 

[Agent_Squash]

CS needs to stop being a hotel on wheels and become what it is - a sleeper train.

ÖBB are showing how it’s done with the Nightjet - they turned around what was a loss making operation into a real success.

In my opinion, CS should;

- Keep the service split as is. There’s no need to over complicate things by going via the East Coast and the West Coast.
- Introduce couchettes, or the new mini sleepers as seen on Nightjet. A cocoon like setup would work well, and really make the service more accessible rather than a taxpayer subsidised jolly for the rich and enthusiasts.
- Work towards more social arrival / departure times. Obviously the timetable is a key factor for this, but the key thing is make it part of the trip rather than a means to an end. I say that having willingly booked a Nightjet from Wien to Innsbruck arriving at 05:15!

 

[JonathanH]

Work towards more social arrival / departure times.

What would be more social arrival / departure times? Do you actually just want the stock to stay in the arrival and departure stations for longer?

The timings are generally a reasonable compromise between people who want a late departure and prompt arrival time to be able to use the day for something else and something a bit more leisurely.

 

[800001]

Which isn't extortionate for a 400 mile journey and saving the cost of a night's hotel that isn't rat infested or full or druggies in London. The fact people consider £150 to be extortionate and eye-watering just shows how financially unviable the sleeper operation is.

I’ve yet to come across a rat infested or hotel full of druggies when ever I’ve stayed in London.

 

[JamieL]

IMHO the arrival times are spot on - arriving circa-0800 is perfect to get to work or have a full day of activity in London.

 

[mrcheek]

Some people seem to think the sleeper should be more upmarket. some seem to want to go downmarket.

No reason why we cant do both. You could easily add one luxury carriage, and one couchette carriage at the other end to attract the budget traveller!

 

[kylemore]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people seem to think the sleeper should be more upmarket. some seem to want to go downmarket.

No reason why we cant do both. You could easily add one luxury carriage, and one couchette carriage at the other end to attract the budget traveller!

There is (allegedly) already a luxury compartment at least - the double bedded one. But yes, you can indeed have multiple options for accommodation, just like the Euro sleepers do.

On the other hand, if this is all about cost-cutting, they won't be refurbishing the stock, so it's all about savings that can be made in terms of backoffice duplication and potentially the operating model.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What cost cutting could you feasibly do without the RMT calling for a strike?

Lay off all the office staff and have the existing ScotRail staff take that over. Backoffice admin staff may be in Unions (but not the RMT generally) but have very little leverage.