an even better option would be to pick a sensible place to switch from 3rd rail to overhead and electrify most of the distance using OHLE. And electrify GWML to Exeter as well while we're at it. If only the government would provide the funding.
I thought we were talking batteries and recharging, not full scale electrification. In and around stations could be plausible to avoid 25KV AC capability and the associated raising / lowering of pantograph.
The review has been kicked into the long grass more times than I can count (we're in a 'Which Christmas?' stage), which suggests that their conclusion is the one people don't want to hear.
In and around stations the risk of accidentally coming into contact with a live rail is a far higher concern than putting the pan up and down. There's a reason OLE i used by mainline railways the world over, and 3rd rail is confined to urban metro-type systems.
Unless a major leap forward in battery technology is made, I'll remain highly sceptical of its use on mainline railways. The weight, energy density, and requirement for large quantities of rare-earth metals mean that OHLE will continue to be the best solution to decarbonising the railway.
Have a look at Germany and Japan. The traffic pattern on the GB network is well-suited to battery extensions of electrified core routes, and battery technology in cars is leaping forward at a considerable rate, assisting rail technology as it does so.
I still stand by my assertion that for a route as long (and relatively frequently served) as the WofE line, OHLE makes far more sense. It's an established technology that is well understood, and doesn't have the added environmental costs of sourcing the materials for batteries- something that battery advocates conveniently ignore.
We knew that post was coming. Practicality over ‘concern’ needs consideration.
Agree that full OHLE is the only sensible way to go, unfortunately we need a change of government policy to do so.
I agree, but the cost is hard to justify.
The concern is real. People die from touching 3rd rail, and a pantograph going up and down is not a problem at all.
Possibly where the battery charging can be done from existing ac overhead systems. Where you are trying to charge the batteries from existing dc third rail systems you either need huge numbers of battery units so they can trickle charge themselves whilst on wholly electrified services or massive upgrades to the existing dc electrification most of which was only upgraded to the anticipated maximum load when the electrostar/desiro units were introduced in the early 2000s.
Risk, practicality and cost would all feature in a cost-benefit analysis.
Indeed. And almost universally 3rd rail fails that analysis.
Not sure an independent risk assessment would be enough to significantly impact the overall cost-benefit analysis although ORR could revert to blanket ban, of course.
If the electrification / battery solution was to be used on WofE, the battery charging would principally be on new (relatively lightly used) sections of electrification west of Worting Junction (ideally OHLE). The software would identify where charging could be done (not required for traction) on existing sections within the maximum loads and there would be regenerative braking too.
Hate to point it out but net zero in UK electric generation on current policies is 30 years plus away. Taking a global UK view (particularly in England) huge government investment on marginal secondary diesel powered routes shouldnt be a priority.
The 30-year target is correct. However, the current operator has identified the present trains will require replacement in 5-8 years (they won't last another 30 years) and new diesel only trains won't be leased for routes serving London. Not sure I would describe it as a 'huge' investment either.
Any assessment of whether 3rd rail should be extended, would see that there is more accidents with people than OHLE.
So for the same distance and possibly longer, Germany can have battery trains such as reported in https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/german-regions-order-63-battery-trains/
Risking going off topic here, but if GWR were looking at purchasing a new replacement for their Devon and Cornwall Branch lines they might prefer to have a single universal fleet rather than a handful that can run the Barnstable branch to keep them the same as those used to Salisbury and beyond. While perhaps if they were suitable all those branch lines could use them even though 90mph (although purpose built units for SWR would probably be 100mph or higher) would be overkill in most cases and some of the branches such as Looe would no doubt struggle to accomodate that grade of train). Exeter to Salisbury/Waterloo is a long distance main line service which many passangers will be taking journeys of well over 2 hours, where as the Barnstable branch is mainly carrying passengers about an hours journey to their nearest large urban area to work or shop or visit leisure venues not available more locally or to connect onto other longer distance services.
A lot of the countries busiest stations use 3rd rail and have done for years, while OHLE might be less dangerous than 3rd rail would 3rd rail at say Salisbury be more of a problem than 3rd rail at Basingstoke and if we are not looking at taking it away from existing routes, forcing extentions of these routes to use OHLE creates a compatibility issue. I have not been there myself, but I am pretty sure the recently opened Northern line extenstion uses 3rd (and/or 4th) rail
Diesel is not one of the options being considered according to the report and batteries are only being considered with a capacity of 60-80km (although in a few years that might have improved), which would mean a few stretches between Basingstoke and Exeter would need some for of electricfication (or lots of short Station areas to get maxium charging out of minimum infrasturcture). Wether that be 3rd rail DC or overhead AC.
You’re way off the mark if you think Basingstoke to Exeter is doable on batteries. You would need sections every 20-30 miles for a reliable service whatever the Germany distance tests have proven, hence me pointing out that 3rd rail would be more practical and less expensive to install - you’d need a sub-station for each section whether it was OHLE or 3rd rail. Rail is the safest form of transportation whether it’s 3rd rail or not; Mk 3 carriages or not. IMO ORR needs to reevaluate some policies.
I agree this would be a good approach. I wrote on another thread that it will be proposed (not sure who by in this manufacturer, ROSCO, TOC, NR, GBR world) to replace the GWR regional and SWT diesel fleet with units with one standard fleet of 25KV ac / 750 dc units plus interchangeable battery / diesel module. Gunnislake and Looe for Vivarail. This would provide a good politically valuable workload for Newport or Newton Aycliffe.
More than 30 miles, Stadler have managed 90 miles though its still far of a round trip on the unelectrified section.
I’d also say the same. Having a more standardised fleet between multiple operators would negate the future annoyance of small micro fleets (think class 175s). Both operators have very similar requirements for their units and are both owned by First Group. Both could probably do with a variant with end doors (suited for Waterloo to Exeter and Cardiff to Portsmouth), as well as a variant with doors at thirds for most of GWRs Devon/Cornwall operations, SWRs Romsey to Salisbury, as well as an eventual replacement for the bodged 769s For GWR.
The 90 miles quoted requires a full charge and you won’t get that with recharging on the move unless the OHLE or 3rd rail is a considerable length. For reliability multiple shorter sections would be preferable.
Agreed. Salisbury-Tisbury, Sherborne-Crewkerne and east of Exeter would be the most obvious places to do so. However that would rely on OLE being extended to Exeter via Westbury and Castle Cary. Wiring Romsey-Westbury via Warminster (either batteries to bridge the gap or OLE to Eastleigh East and Redbridge Jns), extending the Exeter area to Pinhoe or Honiton, and then running a 'giant extension lead' from Castle Cary to Yeovil Junction (Pen Mill is a take it/leave it situation) to feed the central charging seciton.
Stadler claim 15 mins to recharge.
Interesting would need circa 20 mile sections.
Only if the power availability isn't limited, though
There are no 'standard' EMUs suitable for Marlow unfortunately. Unless you managed to get permission to do 3rd rail and got it fitted before the 466s get sent off to Sims at Newport.
replied to in this thread as off-topic here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-western-electrification-part-2.235344/page-4
