Future of Class 379

[JonathanH]

There was another plan, the one where in the 2010s Northern Rail would replace their 323 fleet.

Talk of this can be found here:

Congleton crash

Seriously, is that news report correct, Metroland? Only 30 passengers on a rush hour train? :shock: Past Macclesfield though so yeah - likely to be a correct number.

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes, but that involved WMR taking on the 17 Northern 323s, Porterbrook being wrong footed when WMR procured new units. A deal has been done for them to go the opposite way.

A lot has happened since that thread from 2008.

 

[Mamorin]

I know a lot of happened since that 2008 thread.

I should say that the post was ment as a reply to Neptune’s comment because they said they could only remember 1 plan to replace the 323s that are operated by Northern.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==

Anywho back to the 379s, I’m going to say that if a new home can’t be found by next February the 379s will be scrapped.

I hope that a new home can be found though.

 

[43096]

I should say that the post was ment as a reply to Neptune’s comment because they said they could only remember 1 plan to replace the 323s that are operated by Northern.

Errrr, is that not the same plan that @Neptune refers to?

 

[Mamorin]

It’s not the same plan, Neptune was referring to the 2016 ARN plan, not the late 00s Northern Rail plan.

 

[RobShipway]

So other than Great Northern to replace the class 387 units, which could then go South to Southern. Where could the class 379's go if not to either Northern or WMR?

I doubt that they could get used by Scotrail and there is not enough electrification in Wales for them to be used by Transport for Wales, with all the new trains that are arriving there.

The only other possibility I see is if they are converted to 3rd rail and have the ability to work as well with either battery/hydrogen to replace the class 158/159 units with SWR. But I suspect the cost of that will prohibit it from happening. So the only real path left is for them to be scrapped, which seems a shame.

 

[Neptune]

So the only real path left is for them to be scrapped, which seems a shame.

Or export. Nobody seems to want to consider that.

 

[43096]

It’s not the same plan, Neptune was referring to the 2016 ARN plan, not the late 00s Northern Rail plan.

But both were based on Porterbrook's fleet strategy to concentrate the 323s at London Midland/WMT/whatever it is now.

 

[Trainbike46]

Or export. Nobody seems to want to consider that.

Who abroad would want a train like the 379, specifically now when most railway companies are running fewer/shorter commuter trains? Plus, it being built to the relatively narrow british loading gauge won't make them anymore attractive.

My understanding is that the problem with the 379 is that they are too expensive to lease - this will also be an issue for export

 

[43102EMR]

Who abroad would want a train like the 379, specifically now when most railway companies are running fewer/shorter commuter trains? Plus, it being built to the relatively narrow british loading gauge won't make them anymore attractive.

My understanding is that the problem with the 379 is that they are too expensive to lease - this will also be an issue for export

Gautrain in Johannesburg operates Electrostars that were built around the same time as the 379, albeit with a different cab design and the use of ribbon glazing.

 

[Trainbike46]

Gautrain in Johannesburg operates Electrostars that were built around the same time as the 379, albeit with a different cab design and the use of ribbon glazing.

Does Gautrain need more commuter-style trains? If so that might be an option. But if not it seems unlikely!

 

[Mamorin]

My understanding is that the problem with the 379 is that they are too expensive to lease

That is the problem, Today's Railways UK reported that was why GA got rid of the 379s.

 

[RailWonderer]

Because this needs to be clarified for the I don’t know how many’eth time…

Northern will not be taking on the 350/2s, 379s etc. - the only EMU cascades occurring with them will be the 323s from WMR, and that’s it. It has been mentioned time and time again that they are looking for fleet standardisation, and if anything will look at ordering further CAF stock. Not to mention they’re 4 carriages in length, which makes multiple workings difficult in terms of platform lengths etc.

Apologies but I don't have the time around work and hobbies to be reading endless pages of the forum for somebody who has mentioend this before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

That is the problem, Today's Railways UK reported that was why GA got rid of the 379s.

They proposed, and delivered an entire fleet replacement regardless of leasing costs, so that they would win the long term 10 year franchise.

 

[Trainbike46]

Apologies but I don't have the time around work and hobbies to be reading endless pages of the forum for somebody who has mentioend this before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==


They proposed, and delivered an entire fleet replacement regardless of leasing costs, so that they would win the long term 10 year franchise.

Most of GAs fleet was rather old and life-expired. The only units that had life left in them were the 170s, the 360s and the 379s. Offering a full fleet replacement allowed for a reduction in train types (they used to have 4 types for the rural routes alone!), while increasing capacity and, specifically in the case of the 379s reduce leasing cost. replacing everything except the 379s would have been an option, but more new trains was cheaper.

 

[Mikey C]

The leasing company has an asset called the 379 fleet. Unless they can lease it out, all it's worth is its scrap value, which will be a fraction of its book value. Thus the leasing company will have to reduce the leasing cost to any potential operators or face a massive write off.

 

[ashkeba]

Most of GAs fleet was rather old and life-expired. The only units that had life left in them were the 170s, the 360s and the 379s.

The 170 interiors were trashed. Not as bad as the XC ones but far worse than the 379s.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

If Akiem are having problems leasing out the 379s? Then, maybe they could sell the 379s to another leasing company like Porterbrook, Rock Rail, Evershot or Angel Trains. But I think that the blame should be 3-way blame. Dft, GTR, and Akiem.

 

[JonathanH]

But I think that the blame should be 3-way blame. Dft, GTR, and Akiem.

There is no blame. The decision to replace them was made before March 2020. The post March 2020 railway is a different place. The 379s just aren't needed at any price. Simple.

 

[cslusarc]

Are the current owners of the Class 379 fleet legally prevented from leasing the Class 379s to new operators at the current market rate for previously loved 4-car electric AC EMUs?

 

[skyhigh]

Are the current owners of the Class 379 fleet legally prevented from leasing the Class 379s to new operators at the current market rate for previously loved 4-car electric AC EMUs?

They can charge whatever they want.

 

[Doomotron]

The 379s just aren't needed at any price. Simple.

Yep, no need for them, with stock shortages at Southern and especially Southeastern. Absolutely no reason for the 379s to exist. They might as well be scrapped.

 

[43096]

If Akiem are having problems leasing out the 379s? Then, maybe they could sell the 379s to another leasing company like Porterbrook, Rock Rail, Evershot or Angel Trains.

Why would anyone be interested in buying second-hand trains that the current owner cannot lease out? Porterbrook already have the 350/2s coming off lease with no new home, why would they want another 30 trains with no home?

It's always astonishing how commercially naïve many people are...

 

[43096]

Yep, no need for them, with stock shortages at Southern and especially Southeastern. Absolutely no reason for the 379s to exist. They might as well be scrapped.

Other than the magic money tree, how do you propose to address the funding gap between revenue and costs on the railway? Plenty of people saying we need more trains, when all the evidence is that, actually, no we don't - there isn't the revenue to support them.

 

[AlexNL]

Yep, no need for them, with stock shortages at Southern and especially Southeastern. Absolutely no reason for the 379s to exist. They might as well be scrapped.

That's not really Akiem's problem though, their assets aren't even capable of solving the SN/SE stock shortages due to a lack of 3rd rail equipment. Of course moving stock around would be an answer, but that would mean that someone has to reach out to Akiem to lease (or outright purchase) the 379s to enable the cascade of 387s. It looks like Akiem are just going to be sitting on the 379s and wait it out.

If nothing happens eventually they'll probably take their losses and send the units to Booth's.

 

[liamf656]

It’s been mentioned plenty of times before so apologies for only echoing it but I just wish the 379s were available before the 360s.
- In my opinion EMR would have benefitted from the gangway connections (and avoided disputes about it)
- They’d have been able to run 12 car services sooner
- They seemed in better condition (so much so that I wouldn’t even mind as much if refurbishment was delayed, unpopular opinion I know).
- Not to mention the fact that they have 2+2 seating and tables.
- If staffing permitted then an at seat trolley service would have been possible too, something that can’t be done on 360s as the trolley doesn’t fit in the aisle.

I don’t know what I’d do with the surplus units however as the PVR only requires 18 units out of 30 if all are 12 car

 

[43102EMR]

It’s been mentioned plenty of times before so apologies for only echoing it but I just wish the 379s were available before the 360s.
- In my opinion EMR would have benefitted from the gangway connections (and avoided disputes about it)
- They’d have been able to run 12 car services sooner
- They seemed in better condition (so much so that I wouldn’t even mind as much if refurbishment was delayed, unpopular opinion I know).
- Not to mention the fact that they have 2+2 seating and tables.
- If staffing permitted then an at seat trolley service would have been possible too, something that can’t be done on 360s as the trolley doesn’t fit in the aisle.

I don’t know what I’d do with the surplus units however as the PVR only requires 18 units out of 30 if all are 12 car

Hindsight from EMR’s side would have been useful here - the surplus 12 379s would have been useful for when the MML electrification is extended north, as they could have been used on electric stoppers to Leicester. Then again, the 360s were leased long before the extension of the wires was announced…

 

[Trainbike46]

The 170 interiors were trashed. Not as bad as the XC ones but far worse than the 379s.

This is true, they were very much in need of a refurb near the end. However, the underlying unit had a lot of life left in it, and still going strong now (with TfW I think?) Compared to for example the 317s, 37 + MkIIs or the 321s, which really had no future left

 

[43074]

There is no blame. The decision to replace them was made before March 2020. The post March 2020 railway is a different place. The 379s just aren't needed at any price. Simple.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion but I would bet on them being in service by next summer.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion but I would bet on them being in service by next summer.

If peak time passenger numbers and revenue have increased to the extent that use of the 379s is justified that outcome would be great but just willing them into service right now as an extra cost to the railway is not a good outcome.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Other than the magic money tree, how do you propose to address the funding gap between revenue and costs on the railway? Plenty of people saying we need more trains, when all the evidence is that, actually, no we don't - there isn't the revenue to support them.

Well. This government seems to find magic money trees all the time.

 

[Mamorin]

Well. This government seems to find magic money trees all the time.

Only for it’s mates and donors. I don’t think this government will ever find a magic money tree for the railways.