Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[Snow1964]

What’s considered safe/acceptable changes over time, so what was acceptable when built 35 years ago might not be so now.

Doesn’t explain how the auto-reversals trials and tests have been acceptable this year if fencing and signs now needs to be added.

Also if Westbourne Park reversing sidings are considered unacceptable to use without changes, doesn’t explain how trains have been using them this week.

My understanding is that driver is required in front until they arrive at the sidings, (in case another train has problems, sidings are full and train gets last minute diversion onto main line), it is only the return leg to Paddington that can start without operator in the cab.

 

[Bald Rick]

Doesn’t explain how the auto-reversals trials and tests have been acceptable this year if fencing and signs now needs to be added.

Perhaps other mitigations have been in place, like extra security…

 

[Mag_seven]

You can put manual mitigations in place until such times as the fences etc are installed. I don't see this as a "show stopper".

 

[matt_world2004]

I would have thought fencing and signage would have been speced in the initial stages of the project unless something has happened since the service has opened to indicate they are needed I wonder if such fences are to segregate the crossrail line from the gwml to give added protection to railway workers and to stop them accidentally walking into the auto reverse area.

 

[Class 170101]

Does the Auto-reverse understand what to do if a person was to step out in front of the train?

Doesn't surprise me that its troublesome, just think about self driving cars and why we don't allow them to operate unsupervised as yet. As I've highlighted previously on this thread and other have this week it will be of less use once Old Oak Common opens in less than 10 years time (hopefully).

 

[ijmad]

Does the Auto-reverse understand what to do if a person was to step out in front of the train?

Doesn't surprise me that its troublesome, just think about self driving cars and why we don't allow them to operate unsupervised as yet. As I've highlighted previously on this thread and other have this week it will be of less use once Old Oak Common opens in less than 10 years time (hopefully).

There aren't sensors.

But you're wrong, many countries are now allowing self-driving car trials with completely unattended vehicles.

Waymo One

 

[plugwash]

Doesn't surprise me that its troublesome, just think about self driving cars and why we don't allow them to operate unsupervised as yet. As I've highlighted previously on this thread and other have this week it will be of less use once Old Oak Common opens in less than 10 years time (hopefully).

My understanding was the main reason for wanting/needing auto-reverse was as a contingency in the case that **** happens on the GWML. If so then presumablly that would still be needed after old oak common was built.

 

[Class 170101]

There aren't sensors.

But you're wrong, many countries are now allowing self-driving car trials with completely unattended vehicles.

Waymo One

Not sure they are allowed in the UK yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==

My understanding was the main reason for wanting/needing auto-reverse was as a contingency in the case that **** happens on the GWML. If so then presumablly that would still be needed after old oak common was built.

Hence less rather than no use post Old Oak Common.

 

[Bald Rick]

The auto reverse isn’t specific to OOC. It can be used anywhere where a train might turnback (absent a platform) in the CBTC section

 

[ijmad]

My understanding was the main reason for wanting/needing auto-reverse was as a contingency in the case that **** happens on the GWML. If so then presumablly that would still be needed after old oak common was built.

OOC will have four platforms dedicated to the Elizabeth Line - might be enough to turn the whole 24tph service without needing auto reverse. Of course the Elizabeth Line's core frequency may have been bumped by the time it opens, but you'd still be able to turn some proportion of trains at Paddington using Westbourne Park if the GWML was completely blocked.

 

[Horizon22]

OOC will have four platforms dedicated to the Elizabeth Line - might be enough to turn the whole 24tph service without needing auto reverse. Of course the Elizabeth Line's core frequency may have been bumped by the time it opens, but you'd still be able to turn some proportion of trains at Paddington using Westbourne Park if the GWML was completely blocked.

You’d need 5 presumably though? EB & WB plus 3 terminating ones. This would replicate the Westbourne Park situation.

In reality if the GWML was blocked, you’d be reducing the service frequency anyway.

 

[matt_world2004]

You’d need 5 presumably though? EB & WB plus 3 terminating ones. This would replicate the Westbourne Park situation.

In reality if the GWML was blocked, you’d be reducing the service frequency anyway.

The problem is when the service fully opens you need a frequency that can sustain demand for the core. .

In a build it and they will come attitude 12toh might not be sustainable in the core when demand increases by the increased frequency.

Indeed the revised opening plan has probably only been possible due to the loss of demand by COVID

 

[Horizon22]

The problem is when the service fully opens you need a frequency that can sustain demand for the core. .

In a build it and they will come attitude 12toh might not be sustainable in the core when demand increases by the increased frequency.

Indeed the revised opening plan has probably only been possible due to the loss of demand by COVID

Even without auto-reverse, November will bring in 22tph in the core, so not sure what you mean.

If there was a large scale block of the GWML for some reason (the likelihood is rare but exists), then you could still utilise one of the WB/EB lines to turnback trains. It wouldn't be 22tph, but it would be higher than 12tph. Just like any service disruption (or rail or on London Underground), the service gets reduced accordingly.

 

[matt_world2004]

Even without auto-reverse, November will bring in 22tph in the core, so not sure what you mean.

If there was a large scale block of the GWML for some reason (the likelihood is rare but exists), then you could still utilise one of the WB/EB lines to turnback trains. It wouldn't be 22tph, but it would be higher than 12tph. Just like any service disruption (or rail or on London Underground), the service gets reduced accordingly.

They aren't going to be turning 22 trains 0n hour on the core though. I can imagine capacity will become a lot less once you factor in detraining and other things associated with terminating at paddington.

 

[Horizon22]

They aren't going to be turning 22 trains 0n hour on the core though. I can imagine capacity will become a lot less once you factor in detraining and other things associated with terminating at paddington.

Nor did I said they would be; as I said its 12tph max (12tph to/from Shenfield, 8tph off-peak) in November, but should be 14tph (12tph from Shenfield and 2tph from Abbey Wood) if auto-reverse was functional. This is why Abbey Wood has a reduction in peak services compared to now.

In the event of something going bang on GWML, you could potentially utilise the EB and WB lines to turn back trains, but I don't know what frequency it could theoretically reach without auto-reverse.

 

[Thirteen]

OOC will have four platforms dedicated to the Elizabeth Line - might be enough to turn the whole 24tph service without needing auto reverse. Of course the Elizabeth Line's core frequency may have been bumped by the time it opens, but you'd still be able to turn some proportion of trains at Paddington using Westbourne Park if the GWML was completely blocked.

Four platforms at OOC seems like a lot of platforms for the Elizabeth Line.

 

[JonathanH]

Four platforms at OOC seems like a lot of platforms for the Elizabeth Line.

Not if two are for reversals and two are for through trains on the relief line. Four might be needed on the main line as well to allow headways to be maintained - see London Bridge for the Charing Cross route and Reading after rebuild.

 

[Bald Rick]

Four platforms at OOC seems like a lot of platforms for the Elizabeth Line.

Not if two are for reversals and two are for through trains on the relief line. Four might be needed on the main line as well to allow headways to be maintained - see London Bridge for the Charing Cross route and Reading after rebuild.

It is two for reversals and two for through trains.

And on the mains, two for each direction to allow the headways.

 

[43066]

It is two for reversals and two for through trains.

And on the mains, two for each direction to allow the headways.

That’s bloody extraordinary. Two reversals, no less!

It’s exciting, isn’t it?!

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s bloody extraordinary. Two reversals, no less!

It’s exciting, isn’t it?!

well it will be 12tph in the peak, a bit difficult off one platform (with a 200m train)

 

[Taunton]

Nor did I said they would be; as I said its 12tph max (12tph to/from Shenfield, 8tph off-peak) in November, but should be 14tph (12tph from Shenfield and 2tph from Abbey Wood) if auto-reverse was functional. This is why Abbey Wood has a reduction in peak services compared to now.

In the event of something going bang on GWML, you could potentially utilise the EB and WB lines to turn back trains, but I don't know what frequency it could theoretically reach without auto-reverse.

You would never achieve unexpected tip-outs at Paddington every 2.5 minutes at Paddington, passengers just could not all be got out in time (and probably the escalators and gatelines could not handle it either). That, rather than the reversals beyond, would be the determining point.

Fantasy, but it's a shame a scissors crossover was not provided at the east end of Paddington for redundancy if they can't get to the GWML, using both platforms to reverse, which means not having to be so concerned about getting every single person out.

 

[Horizon22]

Fantasy, but it's a shame a scissors crossover was not provided at the east end of Paddington for redundancy if they can't get to the GWML, using both platforms to reverse, which means not having to be so concerned about getting every single person out.

It would actually be a useful bit of infreastructure to have anyway, if a train is 10 minutes late. But the reversal would probably delay the next westbound service(s) so not sure how worthwile it would be.

A train sweep can be done in about 60 seconds, so every 2.5 minutes is perfectly feasible.

 

[lawried123]

You would never achieve unexpected tip-outs at Paddington every 2.5 minutes at Paddington, passengers just could not all be got out in time (and probably the escalators and gatelines could not handle it either). That, rather than the reversals beyond, would be the determining point.

Fantasy, but it's a shame a scissors crossover was not provided at the east end of Paddington for redundancy if they can't get to the GWML, using both platforms to reverse, which means not having to be so concerned about getting every single person out.

In the new timetable from November, there are two occasions in the evening peak where three consecutive trains 3 minutes apart are going to terminate at Paddington. They are not going to detrain onto an empty platform as they do now. In the 12-minute cap for anything proceeding west of Paddington I'm sure the platform is going to get pretty crowded with passengers waiting for the next westbound train. Trying to empty three consecutive trains onto an increasingly crowded platform is, I imagine, going to be quite a difficult job. I will be very interested to see how that works out,

Lawrie

 

[Horizon22]

In the new timetable from November, there are two occasions in the evening peak where three consecutive trains 3 minutes apart are going to terminate at Paddington. They are not going to detrain onto an empty platform as they do now. In the 12-minute cap for anything proceeding west of Paddington I'm sure the platform is going to get pretty crowded with passengers waiting for the next westbound train. Trying to empty three consecutive trains onto an increasingly crowded platform is, I imagine, going to be quite a difficult job. I will be very interested to see how that works out,

Lawrie

Journey planners will not suggest Paddington as the changing point, for exactly this reason.

 

[lawried123]

Journey planners will not suggest Paddington as the changing point, for exactly this reason.

But surely there will still be plenty of passengers arriving on the Bakerloo or the H and C and Circle lines or by bus or taxi who would normally board their westbound train in Paddington mainline have now got to wait on the Elizabeth line platform. I can't imagine this being an insignificant number of people,

Lawrie

 

[stuu]

Journey planners will not suggest Paddington as the changing point, for exactly this reason.

What proportion of people on peak time trains on a metro line will have checked a journey planner first? I would guess at not many, that's one of the key selling points of urban high frequency railways

 

[Horizon22]

But surely there will still be plenty of passengers arriving on the Bakerloo or the H and C and Circle lines or by bus or taxi who would normally board their westbound train in Paddington mainline have now got to wait on the Elizabeth line platform. I can't imagine this being an insignificant number of people,

Lawrie

Possibly although no different to any of the core stations in terms of passenger flow. Again some of those people might connect elsewhere - H&C for instance might be better if you’re coming from the east at Moorgate / Liverpool St.

What proportion of people on peak time trains on a metro line will have checked a journey planner first? I would guess at not many, that's one of the key selling points of urban high frequency railways

People need to do a same platform change if they want to get from say Ealing - Stratford or Ilford to Heathrow Airport. With a “new” railway people do use journey planners, even if it’s just Google Maps.

Whilst it could be anywhere Paddington - Whitechapel, journey planners (which include Citymapper, Google Maps, TfL Go in my sense of the term), will default to Whitechapel.

Of course savvy commuters may do whatever suits them best, but many will be unsure.

 

[Taunton]

During disruption, which is what we are talking about, the general principle is "Keep pushing in the right direction as far as you can". So if Elizabeth is disrupted beyond Paddington, get to there at least. In fact in such disruption Paddington is the obvious place to get to, because if the Elizabeth is not running on, at least you can go upstairs and see what is going from there.

 

[Horizon22]

During disruption, which is what we are talking about, the general principle is "Keep pushing in the right direction as far as you can". So if Elizabeth is disrupted beyond Paddington, get to there at least. In fact in such disruption Paddington is the obvious place to get to, because if the Elizabeth is not running on, at least you can go upstairs and see what is going from there.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about changing to go from stations on GWML to GEML in the normal, day-to-day service.

In disruption, yes going to Paddington or Liverpool Street may be better as there may be services running in contigency from the high level platforms.

 

[philosopher]

In the new timetable from November, there are two occasions in the evening peak where three consecutive trains 3 minutes apart are going to terminate at Paddington. They are not going to detrain onto an empty platform as they do now. In the 12-minute cap for anything proceeding west of Paddington I'm sure the platform is going to get pretty crowded with passengers waiting for the next westbound train. Trying to empty three consecutive trains onto an increasingly crowded platform is, I imagine, going to be quite a difficult job. I will be very interested to see how that works out,

Lawrie

Commuters wanting to go further west from Paddington will probably learn to avoid those two 12 minute periods with nothing going west of Paddington.