Attitudes to ticketless travel

[mikeb42]

Pick open return and pick the first itinerary, then ignore it. I can get a ticket in the time it takes to walk from the car park at Bletchley to platform 6 (the gateline was open; had it not been a short pause would have been needed) and that was without breaking stride.

Agreed that it can be quick in those circumstances. However, I'm not paying 2-3x as much as for the operator restricted super offpeak return (or whatever) valid on a smallish subset of trains I actually require just to save a lot more fiddling about with the app.

The effect is multiplied versus a TVM for my typical journey as I frequently repeat the whole rigmarole for 3-4 splits.

[Advice is appreciated but the LNER app will not run on either of my personal or work phones despite the latter being only a few years old - it mandates newer versions of Android. Short of the palaver of rooting a phone I can't do anything about this. I've found that the C2C app is the best of those that will work. Are any of the others really that different?]

Sadly this is all rather OT - other than that it's another example of it being harder than it should be to obtain the correct fare.

 

[AdamWW]

Would it be fair to say that there is a view in the industry that in the long term the railways shouldn't be expected to provide any physical method for purchasing tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it be fair to say that there is a view in the industry that in the long term the railways shouldn't be expected to provide any physical method for purchasing tickets?

It's certainly the way a large amount of other businesses have gone.

 

[WesternLancer]

Would it be fair to say that there is a view in the industry that in the long term the railways shouldn't be expected to provide any physical method for purchasing tickets?

or is that just a niche opinion by some in the industry comparable to the niche opinion of some travellers that they shouldn't be expected to purchase any ticket at all ever?

 

[Haywain]

Would it be fair to say that there is a view in the industry that in the long term the railways shouldn't be expected to provide any physical method for purchasing tickets?

That's certainly the direction in which things are moving but it remains to be seen just how far it will go.

 

[AdamWW]

It's certainly the way a large amount of other businesses have gone.

Which did you have in mind?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which did you have in mind?

I suppose there's technically the box office, but people don't buy gig or theatre tickets in person these days.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suppose there's technically the box office, but people don't buy gig or theatre tickets in person these days.

The main difference of course is that these are not seen as public services since it is not considered a social necessity to go to a concert but it may be to use the train / public transport to go to work or hospital etc (even tho some/many theatres will be receiving public subsidy in some form or other) and that if taxpayers are helping to pay for the service it is not really acceptable to deny access to those tax payers who can not or will not use an online purchase method to access the service.

having said that there are plenty of bits of govt making it very difficult to access their services without being on line (ie driving channel shift to try and save money)

 

[AdamWW]

The main difference of course is that these are not seen as public services since it is not considered a social necessity to go to a concert but it may be to use the train / public transport to go to work or hospital etc (even tho some/many theatres will be receiving public subsidy in some form or other) and that if taxpayers are helping to pay for the service it is not really acceptable to deny access to those tax payers who can not or will not use an online purchase method to access the service.

having said that there are plenty of bits of govt making it very difficult to access their services without being on line (ie driving channel shift to try and save money)

There's also the difference between things you generally buy in advance and might reasonably want to just turn up for.

But I presume that people do still use box offices (they certainly exist with generous opening hours for the theatres where I live) and last time I went to the cinema they still had a row of ticket vending machines (and I really don't understand the principle behind charging extra to buy tickets on-line instead of at the cinema or theatre).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't doubt some will be overzealous like some RPIs sometimes are, but I very much do doubt it is anything like the majority of them.

That depends on how they are employed, and by whom. There are litter enforcement agents employed on a salary by the council, but many councils outsource to private contractors who are paid by results and, by extension, whose staff receive bonuses for these results.

As you can imagine, the councils who choose the latter option experience more pedantic enforcement, to put it politely.

I'd love to know whether private enforcement contracts on the railways are similarly structured, as I suspect they are. Certainly Transport Investigations made themselves into a very profitable business indeed through their "pioneering use of private prosecutions", and my understanding is that they were largely paid by results.

Do RPIs enjoy a similar commission benefit to that enjoyed by retail staff? I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure the answer will influence how pernickety they wish to be.

When you're paid according to how many fish you catch, you get a bigger net.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I suppose there's technically the box office, but people don't buy gig or theatre tickets in person these days.

Oh don't get me started about gig tickets / the loss of box offices...

... damn, here we go.

It wasn't all that long ago that one could rock (!) up at a gig venue and buy tickets from the box office and, if paid in cash, pay only the face value of the tickets. No fees whatsoever. And only a nominal fee if one did choose to use a card. You'd then walk away with freshly printed tickets in hand.

Fast forward to last week and buying tickets online, through Ticketmaster, at one of the self same venues I used to pay cash at. Face value of tickets £45. Total paid: £55.85. A full £10.85 of miscellaneous fees... and those are for electronic tickets! If you wanted a paper (souvenir?!) ticket that would be even more please, and oh, we'll send it you after the show.

Closure of music venue box offices has resulted in Ticketmaster and the various tentacles of See Group absolutely raking it in by applying massively disproportionate fees, and venues, bands and fans all suffer as a result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thing is, buying at the box office is only useful if you live near the venue or it's a gig that won't sell out.

So I want to go to a gig in London, that's going to be 20 quid to go to London and get the ticket! Only local fans suffer. Venues make their choice, they can always open a box office! Bands don't care as long as they sell out.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I suppose the point is, it removes the choice. If you lived or worked near a venue you previously had the option to buy at the box office and avoid fees, and now that option has gone.

I would argue the bands and the venues suffer as buyers are put off by the excessive fees and they are less likely to sell tickets / sell out. Anecdotally it seems to me that there are far fewer people at gigs even for established bands these days. The factors for this are many and varied, I'm sure (covid anxiety, cost of living, etc.) but I'm willing to bet the cost of tickets and fees is one of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose the point is, it removes the choice. If you lived or worked near a venue you previously had the option to buy at the box office and avoid fees, and now that option has gone.

I would argue the bands and the venues suffer as buyers are put off by the excessive fees and they are less likely to sell tickets / sell out. Anecdotally it seems to me that there are far fewer people at gigs even for established bands these days. The factors for this are many and varied, I'm sure (covid anxiety, cost of living, etc.) but I'm willing to bet the cost of tickets and fees is one of them.

The venues clearly don't care, as it is completely their choice whether they operate a box office or not, and many (not all) have chosen not to!

I don't doubt that COVID nervousness is by far the main reason, by the way. Obscure bands cost next to nothing and still generally have tickets on the door. Big events are expensive anyway (the ticket and getting there) so the fees don't bother me or most others I'd think.

 

[AdamWW]

Thing is, buying at the box office is only useful if you live near the venue or it's a gig that won't sell out.

So I want to go to a gig in London, that's going to be 20 quid to go to London and get the ticket! Only local fans suffer. Venues make their choice, they can always open a box office! Bands don't care as long as they sell out.

Right but surely it doesn't have to be so much more expensive to buy on-line?

With transport, buying on-line doesn't generally attract a premium - and why shoud it? It might cost more to buy over the phone (or possible even in person). But why should using a computerised system cost more than turning up and dealing with a real person?

I recently had fish and chips delivered. Previously when I used that place I had to do it through Uber Eats. Inflated prices (to make up for what Uber Eats charge the takeaway) + delivery fee + service charge.

Now they have their own on-line ordering system and deliver themselves.

Overall cost about 2/3 of what it was before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right but surely it doesn't have to be so much more expensive to buy on-line?

With transport, buying on-line doesn't generally attract a premium - and why shoud it? It might cost more to buy over the phone (or possible even in person). But why should using a computerised system cost more than turning up and dealing with a real person?

Train tickets do carry a commission element - I believe it's about 10%, 5% of which traditionally went to the TOC and 5% to the member of staff who sold it, though I don't think that's universal now. You can't hide that in event tickets in the same way so it goes on top.

It's a valid argument that Ticketmaster charges too much - but it is in my experience a pretty good setup - in particular it can deal properly with the mad rush of a big event going live - and so I don't mind paying for that service. A bit like some don't mind Trainline's fees.

Similarly I prefer Deliveroo/Uber Eats for food as I can track the arrival better than most companies' own sites where it can be a bit random.

 

[Haywain]

I believe it's about 10%, 5% of which traditionally went to the TOC and 5% to the member of staff who sold it,

I’m not aware of any ticket office staff having been paid commission. Guards at some TOCs maybe.

 

[philthetube]

I think tickets should be sold at the advertised price, once I have paid that price I don't care how it is distributed.

 

[PeterC]

I suppose the point is, it removes the choice. If you lived or worked near a venue you previously had the option to buy at the box office and avoid fees, and now that option has gone.

I would argue the bands and the venues suffer as buyers are put off by the excessive fees and they are less likely to sell tickets / sell out. Anecdotally it seems to me that there are far fewer people at gigs even for established bands these days. The factors for this are many and varied, I'm sure (covid anxiety, cost of living, etc.) but I'm willing to bet the cost of tickets and fees is one of them.

All the independent promoters that I know are seeing lower audience numbers since covid. Little difference between those that sell in advance and those that are pay at the door.

 

[nanstallon]

I think tickets should be sold at the advertised price, once I have paid that price I don't care how it is distributed.

Agreed. I hate being ripped off - the Great British Rip-off with too many middlemen getting involved, and giving the long suffering customer a good soaking.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Agreed. I hate being ripped off - the Great British Rip-off with too many middlemen getting involved, and giving the long suffering customer a good soaking.

Rail seems to attract the worst

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Agreed. I hate being ripped off - the Great British Rip-off with too many middlemen getting involved, and giving the long suffering customer a good soaking.

Rail seems to attract the worst

Ticket selling arrangements for in demand music concerts seems to be much, much worse.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And paying to park by phone can also be more expensive than buying a ticket from the machine

 

[johntea]

Large Northern revenue block in place at Castleford (unstaffed apart from a ‘security officer’ usually to keep an eye on the indoor waiting area) today, which is rare to see, let alone on a Saturday!

Apparently they had been sent across from Sheffield

 

[Sm5]

Who owns these ticket vending websites, and where is your data going ?

And I suppose pertinently, where is the investment in new ticket machines, maintenance contracts etc and ultimately profit from these ventures going ?

No one in the UK seems to care about their data and how its used.
What incentive is there for a ticket reseller to fix loopholes that trap customers easily into errors when they can double bubble their profit margin by selling access to that data for prosecutions when the tickets are used ?

its smacks of drug dealers sacrificing some mules to ensure others get through.

 

[Haywain]

And I suppose pertinently, where is the investment in new ticket machines, maintenance contracts etc and ultimately profit from these ventures going ?

What have ticket machines and maintenance contracts got to do with websites? The likes of Trainline, Raileasy etc do not operate 'ticket machines'.

 

[AlterEgo]

What incentive is there for a ticket reseller to fix loopholes that trap customers easily into errors when they can double bubble their profit margin by selling access to that data for prosecutions when the tickets are used ?

They do not sell access. Access is given under the Data Protection Act, and must be given as a legal obligation where it is to prevent or detect crime.

 

[43066]

What incentive is there for a ticket reseller to fix loopholes that trap customers easily into errors when they can double bubble their profit margin by selling access to that data for prosecutions when the tickets are used ?

its smacks of drug dealers sacrificing some mules to ensure others get through.

Not sure whether this is a serious post? If so there is some serious paranoia on display here.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We couldn’t even keep the customer database when we transitioned from VTEC to LNER unless the customer had ticket the correct box

 

[Master29]

There has long been an attitude of "if it's the state, they deserve to be fleeced". It couldn't be more wrong when you think of it but nonetheless it has become a sort of urban myth. Railways, government and so on, "but it doesn't matter "cause they can afford it and I pay my taxes", and yet as the OP points out they would never "nick from a shop, mates or family etc. I admit I haven't been immunised to it myself in the past either. I have often heard people being questioned at various stations trotting out the "I`m an honest bloke or girl" line when collared.
I have met many decent enough people myself who have this attitude so it's not about being a bad person so to speak. More or a "follow the crowd" type of response.