Attitudes to ticketless travel

[zero]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

Because I've only just decided to travel, and pressing 4 times on a touch screen and tapping a card is easier than faffing about with a phone (on non-planner TVMs at least).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

Because for simple local journeys the industry's apps and websites are crap.

There's a thread in disputes where GWR's app broke and someone's massively out of pocket because they were made to buy another ticket. Paper doesn't crash.

 

[nanstallon]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

I prefer a proper ticket office, but a TVM is next best. Getting tickets by phone is too unreliable; when combined with an aggressive revenue protection mentality, I'll give it a miss. The TOCs must get their act together and not brand people as fare dodgers when their poor technology doesn't work.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would not permit the railways to threaten prosecution (backed up with a very real chance of conviction thanks to strict liability) where there is no evidence of intent to fare evade and then offer to back down in return for cash. This is a serious conflict of interest and I'm not aware of anything similar in the UK

There are a number of similar situations, and they all operate the same way and with the same problems. It's less common, but copyright prosecutions by FACT also follow exactly the same pattern with exactly the same pattern of abuse.

And, of course, even if you win in court you've still had to take a day off work and you don't get compensated for it.

Prosecutions for littering follow a similar process too, with similar levels of misuse, and the police's misuse of Covid fixed penalties is well documented. But at least those processes are wielded by public bodies with some level of oversight.

It's an underlying problem with the right to bring a private prosecution.

 

[AdamWW]

There are a number of similar situations, and they all operate the same way and with the same problems. It's less common, but copyright prosecutions by FACT also follow exactly the same pattern with exactly the same pattern of abuse.

And, of course, even if you win in court you've still had to take a day off work and you don't get compensated for it.

Prosecutions for littering follow a similar process too, with similar levels of misuse, and the police's misuse of Covid fixed penalties is well documented. But at least those processes are wielded by public bodies with some level of oversight.

It's an underlying problem with the right to bring a private prosecution.

The FACT one is interesting.

I'm curious about what you say about littering - in this case who is prosecuting, and do they also offer people the option of paying them to drop charges?

I had been wondering if councils could use by-law offences to play the same game as the railways.

I don't see the connection with Covid penalties though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm curious about what you say about littering - in this case who is prosecuting, and do they also offer people the option of paying them to drop charges?

I am not *aware* of them doing this, i.e. the private prosecution bit. What is done here, certainly, is a civil fixed penalty a bit more like a Penalty Fare.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm curious about what you say about littering - in this case who is prosecuting, and do they also offer people the option of paying them to drop charges?

As with the Covid penalties, it's slightly different: you get issued with a penalty notice and, if you disagree, the only appeals route is to allow the Magistrates Court to decide. The risk being that, if you lose, the fine will be much higher. And that, even if you win, you've still lost a day's wages.

There's been well-publicised misuse of this process by the police to target peaceful protesters, but the use of it by privately-contracted litter enforcement agents is less publicised.

Capita, the BBC's TV Tax heavies, use a similar process too, somewhere between the police/litter process and the railways/FACT process.

It's the same underlying principle though: pay this money to us or we'll make sure it costs you more.

 

[AdamWW]

As with the Covid penalties, it's slightly different: you get issued with a penalty notice and, if you disagree, the only appeals route is to allow the Magistrates Court to decide. The risk being that, if you lose, the fine will be much higher. And that, even if you win, you've still lost a day's wages.

There's been well-publicised misuse of this process by the police to target peaceful protesters, but the use of it by privately-contracted litter enforcement agents is less publicised.

It's the same underlying principle though: pay this money to us or we'll make sure it costs you more.

I see the point that in these cases people are being offered to pay money or risk court, as with the railways.

But I presume that fixed penalty notice fines don't to go whoever handed them out, so there isn't the conflict of interest of having an incentive to unfairly threaten prosecution to raise money.

(And I'll say again - it doesn't matter if this is actually abused or not - the principle with conflicts of interest is usually to avoid them in the first place)

 

[AlterEgo]

I hear the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head. Does any other industry regard its customers with so much suspicion and often downright hostility?

You should try being 18 and wearing a hoodie to watch yourself get followed around shops by security staff. This happened to me all the time at that age.

Ticket irregularities should come under civil litigation, not criminal.

Irregularities, yes. Outright evasion, no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see the point that in these cases people are being offered to pay money or risk court, as with the railways.

Is it not a bit more like a FPN for a speeding offence? You can choose to pay a fixed (rather than arbitrary) sum or defend it in Court.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Is it not a bit more like a FPN for a speeding offence? You can choose to pay a fixed (rather than arbitrary) sum or defend it in Court.

Or, to put it another way, you can buy your way out of a criminal conviction.
Just like slipping a bribe to a police officer in a third world country

There must be a number of murders languishing in jail who would have liked that option

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or, to put it another way, you can buy your way out of a criminal conviction.

It's more similar to motoring. A littering FPN and a motoring FPN are sort-of recordable - both are statutory fixed penalties, not settlements. (I've edited as I thought littering was a Byelaw offence but it is actually criminal).

It's the railway and its "settlements" where the ability to privately prosecute a RoRA offence creates that situation, and that's why I'm of the opinion that the relevant part of the RoRA needs to be repealed as it isn't used responsibly - it is indeed just like asking for a bribe in that manner.

I would also be more than happy for PFs to gain a similar status as FPNs - so a PF is issued for certain offences (clearly defined which) and if not paid or appealed then you proceed to prosecution. It's the informal settlements - essentially bribes/extortion - I have a huge problem with.

 

[WesternLancer]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

Had to use one the other night when the EMR website would not seem to sell me the ticket I wanted. A super off peak rtn from London Terminals so nothing complex. Not sure if it was the website or both of the 2 bank cards I tried to use (but the card worked OK in the TVM when I got to the station 45 mins later).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

To get an Railcard discounted outboundary day Travelcard. (If I wasn't using a Railcard, a return and contactless would work, but due to the Railcard this would be overpriced, and as it's a Network Railcard I can't just stick it on an Oyster and do it that way).

 

[Tetchytyke]

But I presume that fixed penalty notice fines don't to go whoever handed them out, so there isn't the conflict of interest of having an incentive to unfairly threaten prosecution to raise money.

AFAIK Litter penalties go to the local authority who issued them, but I may be wrong.

 

[WesternLancer]

AFAIK Litter penalties go to the local authority who issued them, but I may be wrong.

pretty sure this is correct. Mt local authority is or was keen on issuing them (and has a lot of public support for doing so, albeit not from those on the receiving end!). But in some cases / places if they are contracted out it may be that the agency with the contract retains some sort of fee per fine issued which creates an incentive to issue them.

I think a bit like on street parking tickets where responsibility to issue them has been moved form the police to the local authority - LA (this is not in every LA areas). My LA had this contracted out but the story goes that councillors got so fed up with complaints from residents about over zealous contractors issuing parking tickets eg including things where one wheel over the white line for the space etc (aka enforcing the parking restrictions to the letter) they brought the contract back in house - and level of tickets issued declined, but so did income from parking fines...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the thing about littering is that you either did drop litter* or you didn't, and most of these wardens have bodycams so there can't be any question as to whether you did or not. The problem with train fares is their complexity and expiry and the relative ease of being caught out with an unwittingly invalid ticket.

* Or if you did by accident, fail to pick it up without being prompted. I've heard moaning about people allegedly being done for dropping accidentally and picking up in MK, but I'm not convinced I believe them, particularly as most such stories involve cigarette ends and particularly given how most smokers seem to think they're not even litter when they of course are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

I think a bit like on street parking tickets where responsibility to issue them has been moved form the police to the local authority - LA (this is not in every LA areas). My LA had this contracted out but the story goes that councillors got so fed up with complaints from residents about over zealous contractors issuing parking tickets eg including things where one wheel over the white line for the space etc (aka enforcing the parking restrictions to the letter) they brought the contract back in house - and level of tickets issued declined, but so did income from parking fines...

I think enforcing stuff like that to the letter is fine if e.g. the markings are bang-on, but a parking space narrower than most cars is a bit "not playing the game" and close to entrapment, yet there are plenty of them about as cars have got wider due to the addition of side-impact protection. (Narrowest car I've had was the massive behemoth of a Series Land Rover as that had no side impact protection at all - little more than a sheet of Bacofoil shaped into a door!)

This is similar to the railway - the fares system is a mess so strict enforcement doesn't work and causes all manner of unfair outcomes.

 

[AdamWW]

AFAIK Litter penalties go to the local authority who issued them, but I may be wrong.

I've just looked it up and - unlike speeding penalties - yes that seems to be the case. Interesting. So yes I see the parallel there.

I think the thing about littering is that you either did drop litter* or you didn't, and most of these wardens have bodycams so there can't be any question as to whether you did or not. The problem with train fares is their complexity and expiry and the relative ease of being caught out with an unwittingly invalid ticket.

Indeed.

I suppose the parallel would be for someone to accidentally drop something without realising it and then be done for littering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose the parallel would be for someone to accidentally drop something without realising it and then be done for littering.

It's possible I suppose, and I don't doubt it has happened, but I'm sceptical that the number of people who claim that had happened was anything like the number where it actually had. More likely is that most people drop something by accident and just accept it and don't bother to "give chase" if the wind is blowing it around.

Most whines I see on local Faceache groups are from smokers, and smokers are the biggest litterers of them all.

 

[AdamWW]

Astonishing. Do you use a different railway to me? I find it more likely my basic expectations aren't met.

I certainly seem somehow to live in a very different world to 43066.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

It's possible I suppose, and I don't doubt it has happened, but I'm sceptical that the number of people who claim that had happened was anything like the number where it actually had. More likely is that most people drop something by accident and just accept it and don't bother to "give chase" if the wind is blowing it around.

I was thinking of occasions where the person doesn't even notice they've dropped it.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think enforcing stuff like that to the letter is fine if e.g. the markings are bang-on, but a parking space narrower than most cars is a bit "not playing the game" and close to entrapment, yet there are plenty of them about as cars have got wider due to the addition of side-impact protection. (Narrowest car I've had was the massive behemoth of a Series Land Rover as that had no side impact protection at all - little more than a sheet of Bacofoil shaped into a door!)

This is similar to the railway - the fares system is a mess so strict enforcement doesn't work and causes all manner of unfair outcomes.

I think the beef ref the white lines was on some streets near me that were rather narrow (tho not especially so) and parking allowed on both sides so the space to drive in was not wide. So the council tried to ease this issue by painting lines to mark out the parking spaces to the sides, and these lines were perhaps better suited to lets say a 1960s era car width. Then the wardens started ticketing anything a bit over or on the line. Don't think people who lived there ever asked for the lines in the 1st place...

Ref litter dropping by accident - can be things like litter or tissues you have put in your pocket, you reach in to get something out eg car keys and the tissue gets caught up and dropped etc partly unintentionally - then the person even if they notice it does not fancy picking it up.

Ref smokers - an amusing anecdote I saw about 10 years ago when organising an event at the town hall. Invitees included various councillors from other boroughs. One was a smoker and stubbed out his cigarette on the pavement outside the town hall before entering it. A CPO, whose role involved standing outside the town hall, noticed this (CPO would have had no idea smoker was a councillor in another town) and asked him to pick up the butt and dispose of it properly, which he declined to do. Littering penalty issued.

I do agree that many smokers do not seem to see smoking detritus as litter - same seemed to be true in the days of smoking carriages. Always the most littered IIRC.

 

[AdamWW]

CPO, whose role involved standing outside the town hall, noticed this (CPO would have had no idea smoker was a councillor in another town) and asked him to pick up the butt and dispose of it properly, which he declined to do. Littering penalty issued.

Should he have acted differently if he had known they were a councillor?

(Though I think this thread is becoming "attitudes to ticketless travel and other things that we think people shouldn't do...")

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ref smokers - an amusing anecdote I saw about 10 years ago when organising an event at the town hall. Invitees included various councillors from other boroughs. One was a smoker and stubbed out his cigarette on the pavement outside the town hall before entering it. A CPO, whose role involved standing outside the town hall, noticed this (CPO would have had no idea smoker was a councillor in another town) and asked him to pick up the butt and dispose of it properly, which he declined to do. Littering penalty issued.

I suspect most of these alleged conversations went thus:

"Can you pick that up, please"
"What the **** you gonna do about that then"
<gets book out>

I don't doubt some will be overzealous like some RPIs sometimes are, but I very much do doubt it is anything like the majority of them. And some things really don't need much discretion - a bag of McD wrappers or a Costalottabucks cup doesn't go flying out of a car window by accident. (I like the idea of drive-thru takeaways being required to print the registration number on the bag and on coffee cups so if they're later found a FPN can be sent to the registered keeper).

A common complaint is them hanging around smoking areas...I wonder why that is!

 

[WesternLancer]

Should he have acted differently if he had known they were a councillor?

(Though I think this thread is becoming "attitudes to ticketless travel and other things that we think people shouldn't do...")

Certainly not, but I suspect the victim probably thought he would / should(?) have done had it been a CPO employed by his own Borough...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly not, but I suspect the victim probably thought he would / should(?) have done had it been a CPO employed by his own Borough...

There was an amusing parallel a while back that got all over the local press when some Councillor whose responsibility included Merseyrail got a PF shortly after they were introduced. How we laughed

 

[WesternLancer]

There was an amusing parallel a while back that got all over the local press when some Councillor whose responsibility included Merseyrail got a PF shortly after they were introduced. How we laughed

I'm guessing they simply were unable to buy a saveaway (or whatever it's called) at the ticket office....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing they simply were unable to buy a saveaway (or whatever it's called) at the ticket office....

At the time Saveaways were a guaranteed defence against a PF - if you saw an inspector scratch it off - so I think there was some definite muppetry going on!

(I never did the above, but you certainly saw it!)

 

[mikeb42]

Still cant work out why anyone uses a TVM anymore.

i) How else can a Day Travelcard from the likes of Banbury or Milton Keynes or any Maltese Cross ticket be obtained?

Smartcards? No use when splitting tickets at the Network Railcard boundary as touching in during the 1 minute dwell of the train is clearly implausible. I wish there was a way around this, but it appears you can touch in with an NFC app on a phone with only season but not day tickets. No use to me. Byzantine complexity as usual.

ii) Point me to a ticketing app that doesn't require protracted, tedious fiddling about to input a fictitious itinerary just to get a ticket. It's quicker to use a non-journey-planner TVM. Why can't someone set up such an app with an "Expert Mode" or whatever which allows you to just buy e.g. a Super Offpeak Day Return from X-Y and, crucially, save various tickets as favourites?

Fix i) and ii) and I'd never use a TVM again. I can't be the only one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ii) Point me to a ticketing app that doesn't require protracted, tedious fiddling about to input a fictitious itinerary just to get a ticket. It's quicker to use a non-journey-planner TVM. Why can't someone set up such an app with an "Expert Mode" or whatever which allows you to just buy e.g. a Super Offpeak Day Return from X-Y and, crucially, save various tickets as favourites?

Pick open return and pick the first itinerary, then ignore it. I can get a ticket in the time it takes to walk from the car park at Bletchley to platform 6 (the gateline was open; had it not been a short pause would have been needed) and that was without breaking stride.

 

[Haywain]

Pick open return and pick the first itinerary, then ignore it. I can get a ticket in the time it takes to walk from the car park at Bletchley to platform 6 (the gateline was open; had it not been a short pause would have been needed) and that was without breaking stride.

Yes, that easy. The LNER app is pretty good for most tickets.