Attitudes to ticketless travel

[southern442]

I'd have less sympathy for fare evaders if the railways weren't so damn expensive.

 

[43066]

I've heard similar stories to this about people who were perfectly willing to pay but were unable to do so, the railway industry don't help themselves.

Have you indeed! I’ve heard stories about how the Earth is really flat, alien abductions are real etc. Maybe you shouldn’t believe everything you’re told?

The reality is that the vast majority of fare dodgers on the railway are druggies, scummers, known to the police already. I’m still awaiting evidence that innocent people are being criminalised as implied upthread.

But of course it’s the myth of the big bad railway criminalising innocent travellers that’s jumped all over on here. Never mind the revenue lost to fare evasion.

Meanwhile railway staff daring to strike for better pay and conditions are regarded as the scum of the earth… It’s laughable…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2022 ==

I'd have less sympathy for fare evaders if the railways weren't so damn expensive.

That’s about as useful as saying: “I have more sympathy for people who shoplift from Waitrose, than from Aldi”.

 

[Edsmith]

Have you indeed! I’ve heard stories about how the Earth is really flat, alien abductions are real etc. Maybe you shouldn’t believe everything you’re told?

The reality is that the vast majority of fare dodgers on the railway are druggies, scummers, known to the police already. I’m still awaiting evidence that innocent people are being criminalised as implied upthread.

But of course it’s the myth of the big bad railway criminalising innocent travellers that’s jumped all over, on here. Never mind the revenue lost to fare evasion.

Meanwhile railway staff daring to strike for better pay and conditions are regarded as the scum of the earth… It’s laughable…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2022 ==



“I have more sympathy for people who shoplift from Waitrose, than from Aldi”.

What on earth are you talking about? And what do you suggest the person travelling from Denham Golf Club to Princess Risborough should have done?

 

[southern442]

That’s about as useful as saying: “I have more sympathy for people who shoplift from Waitrose, than from Aldi”.

No, because unless you are going from London to Southampton, Birmingham or Edinburgh, there isn't some budget railway service that runs alongside the regular ones!

 

[43066]

What on earth are you talking about? What do you suggest the person travelling from Denham Golf Club to Princess Risborough should have done?

I don’t think you’ve fully read/understood my post.

No, because unless you are going from London to Southampton, Birmingham or Edinburgh, there isn't some budget railway service that runs alongside the regular ones!

No, you said (or implied) that you have sympathy with people who steal from the railway because (in your view) it’s too expensive. I’ve asked whether someone who steals from Waitrose is better than someone who steals from Tescos?

As an aside, nobody is forced to travel by railway. If you can’t afford it there’s national express, Or walking, or not going at all?

 

[MikeWh]

I’m still awaiting evidence that innocent people are being criminalised as implied upthread.

I'll bite.

A couple of years ago GTR were on the point of conducting a fraud interview with a passenger who they believed had defrauded them on numerous occasions because the Oyster system hadn't charged them for any of their regular journeys. I met the person two days before the meeting and verified their journey history, then emailed my contact at TfL alerting them that GTR would soon be asking why this journey wasn't being charged. The passenger had been touching in and out exactly as he should by the way. The next afternoon I spoke again to the passenger who said that they'd just been contacted by GTR and told that "further information had come to light and no further action would be taken".

Six months later I had exactly the same success with another passenger - again GTR.

Just because you personally aren't aware that something is happening doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[43066]

A couple of years ago GTR were on the point of conducting a fraud interview with a passenger who they believed had defrauded them on numerous occasions because the Oyster system hadn't charged them for any of their regular journeys. I met the person two days before the meeting and verified their journey history, then emailed my contact at TfL alerting them that GTR would soon be asking why this journey wasn't being charged. The passenger had been touching in and out exactly as he should by the way. The next afternoon I spoke again to the passenger who said that they'd just been contacted by GTR and told that "further information had come to light and no further action would be taken".

Six months later I had exactly the same success with another passenger - again GTR.

Just because you personally aren't aware that something is happening doesn't mean it isn't.

Being investigated isn’t the same as being criminalised. It seems a little odd that this wasn’t realised before the stage of the interview, but presumably GTR would have been able to verify the journey history with TfL in the way that you could.

Most of the threads in this section are along the lines of someone being caught, lying to revenue inspectors, and then trying to settle out of court. I can’t think of a single thread where someone has said “I’m innocent, and being falsely accused of something by the railway”. I’m not saying that *never* happens, but clearly it’s only ever going to be in a tiny number of cases. Would you not agree with that?

Indeed from reading this section, far from criminalising people, it seems that the railway frequently lets people off with a settlement, even in the serious/blatant cases that have been reported for prosecution!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

What on earth are you talking about? And what do you suggest the person travelling from Denham Golf Club to Princess Risborough should have done?

Apologies having reread I think I slightly missed your point here last night. I’d agree there’s nothing they could really do and they’d have got a free journey! Surely that’s an argument for better enforcement, rather than for decriminalisation, though.

 

[nedchester]

A friend who actually is a solicitor and an enthusiast used to tell me that fare evasion is a “victimless crime” I think he had a point.

At the end of the day if you get away without paying the fare (often due to the poor checking of tickets) then I doubt many would feel guilty about it except perhaps the “holier than thou”?

 

[Edsmith]

A friend who actually is a solicitor and an enthusiast used to tell me that fare evasion is a “victimless crime” I think he had a point.

At the end of the day if you get away without paying the fare (often due to the poor checking of tickets) then I doubt many would feel guilty about it except perhaps the “holier than thou”?

I think it's debatable as to whether it is a victimless crime, on one hand nothing has been physically stolen but obviously if nobody paid there would be no service.

Nobody should feel guilty if they get a free ride because of failings by the TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

Being investigated isn’t the same as being criminalised. It seems a little odd that this wasn’t realised before the stage of the interview, but presumably GTR would have been able to verify the journey history with TfL in the way that you could.

Most of the threads in this section are along the lines of someone being caught, lying to revenue inspectors, and then trying to settle out of court. I can’t think of a single thread where someone has said “I’m innocent, and being falsely accused of something by the railway”. I’m not saying that *never* happens, but clearly it’s only ever going to be in a tiny number of cases. Would you not agree with that?

Indeed from reading this section, far from criminalising people, it seems that the railway frequently lets people off with a settlement, even in the serious/blatant cases that have been reported for prosecution!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==



Apologies having reread I think I slightly missed your point here last night. I’d agree there’s nothing they could really do and they’d have got a free journey! Surely that’s an argument for better enforcement, rather than for decriminalisation, though.

Ok no problem.

 

[MikeWh]

Being investigated isn’t the same as being criminalised. It seems a little odd that this wasn’t realised before the stage of the interview, but presumably GTR would have been able to verify the journey history with TfL in the way that you could.

It stems from the woeful lack of understanding as to how Oyster works. In the first case the passenger was not English and had no clue. As far as they were concerned they might well have done something wrong. GTR were interpreting the journey history in the wrong way. I strongly believe that were it not for my intervention the case may well have ended up in court, or at the very least the passenger would have been out of pocket.

Leave the first case to one side and consider that 6 months later GTR were going down the same route again. That to my mind is gross negligence.

 

[nw1]

The vast majority now use E-Tickets so the ticket office/TVM argument isn't as relevant as once was.

Is that true? I still use paper tickets and I'm a relatively experienced traveller, having used the railways fairly regularly since 1982.

 

[RPI]

Is that true? I still use paper tickets and I'm a relatively experienced traveller, having used the railways fairly regularly since 1982.

As I said in another post, out of the tickets I check daily, the vast majority are E-Tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

Indeed I suspect that will have resulted in reduced casual evasion, as people buy one on their phone by default?

Certainly its changed, the majority of travel irregularities now involve some form of ticket being held, whereas it used to be simply for no ticket. E-Tickets in my opinion have made it easier to be "on the fiddle" but also easier to obtain evidence of such when someone is caught.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed. People getting away with fraud for some time and getting unstuck the moment they get unlucky - with everything catching up with them.

Trainline now has more staff to process requests from TOCs and I can see TOCs more proactively investigating fraud by asking for data about people buying short tickets and where each one is only scanned in or out, and where they can see that both tickets are used within a certain time. You can then know someone has travelled a further distance, and begin further investigations and monitoring.

I wonder if TOCs could even proceed to contact the person from that data alone and propose a settlement to avoid further legal action?

A legitimate defence may exist of course, such as having another ticket for the gap (e.g. Season) but there's still justification for an enquiry IMO.

 

[nw1]

A legitimate defence may exist of course, such as having another ticket for the gap (e.g. Season) but there's still justification for an enquiry IMO.

But if someone does have valid tickets for their entire journey, is it really fair to harass them and require the person spend time and effort proving to the TOC that they did, actually, not evade?

It's the TOC that needs to spend the time and effort proving the passenger evaded, not the reverse.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Most of the threads in this section are along the lines of someone being caught, lying to revenue inspectors, and then trying to settle out of court. I can’t think of a single thread where someone has said “I’m innocent, and being falsely accused of something by the railway”. I’m not saying that *never* happens, but clearly it’s only ever going to be in a tiny number of cases. Would you not agree with that?

How about this one? https://railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-prosecution.229114/

 

[Hadders]

But if someone does have valid tickets for their entire journey, is it really fair to harass them and require the person spend time and effort proving to the TOC that they did, actually, not evade?

It's the TOC that needs to spend the time and effort proving the passenger evaded, not the reverse.

I think you're mis-interpreting what @jon0844 means.

I was travelling on a Thameslink train from Stevenage to London last week. Team of RPIs start checking tickets. One person near me gets his phone out and starts fiddling with it.

It turns out he had purchased a tickets from Hitchin to Stevenage and Finsbury Park to St Pancras. He was frantically buying a ticket to cover the gap from Stevenage to Finsbury Park. The inspector scanned the ticket and could see it had been purchased after the train departed Stevenage. The RPI challenged the passenger about his actions. The passenger gave some excuse about his plans changing. The RPI showed discretion and took no further action but left the passenger in now doubt about the future consequences of his actions.

Now, if I was GTR it would be intersting to get Trainline to identify transactions where two short distance tickets had been purchased for the same train. That wouldn't necessarily mean a passenger was guilty but what it would enable is RPIs to target specific trains or people where there was evidence of this sort of behaviour.

To clarifiy further - I'm no cheerleader for GTR. Their behaviour in the case highlighted by @MikeWh above is an absolute disgrace, and this isn't the first time they've been found wanting in this area.

 

[Darandio]

How about this one? https://railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-prosecution.229114/

Plucking out a solitary case from the thousands on here kind of proves the point @43066 was making! I'm certain there are more on here and i'm more certain there are many more cases that haven't been talked about here. But in the context of how many cases are heard every year it will be a tiny percentage.

 

[nw1]

I think you're mis-interpreting what @jon0844 means.

I was travelling on a Thameslink train from Stevenage to London last week. Team of RPIs start checking tickets. One person near me gets his phone out and starts fiddling with it.

It turns out he had purchased a tickets from Hitchin to Stevenage and Finsbury Park to St Pancras. He was frantically buying a ticket to cover the gap from Stevenage to Finsbury Park. The inspector scanned the ticket and could see it had been purchased after the train departed Stevenage. The RPI challenged the passenger about his actions. The passenger gave some excuse about his plans changing. The RPI showed discretion and took no further action but left the passenger in now doubt about the future consequences of his actions.

Now, if I was GTR it would be intersting to get Trainline to identify transactions where two short distance tickets had been purchased for the same train. That wouldn't necessarily mean a passenger was guilty but what it would enable is RPIs to target specific trains or people where there was evidence of this sort of behaviour.

Ah right OK, I see what you mean. Sorry if I misunderstood the original post by @jon0844 - thanks for clarifying.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One of the major problems with Penalty Fares, and especially the fact that they are shortly to be increased to £100 + the fare, is that there are no such requirements.

A long queue is not a reason to quash a PF, but it IS an underlying requirement of being allowed to establish a PF scheme.

Sadly it is not a requirement which is enforced.

 

[Watershed]

A long queue is not a reason to quash a PF, but it IS an underlying requirement of being allowed to establish a PF scheme.

Sadly it is not a requirement which is enforced.

There is no longer a requirement to obtain permission to establish a PF scheme. The revised Regulations which came into force in 2018 changed a lot of things.

Essentially, operators can have queues as long as they want, with just a single itinerary-based ticket machine at a busy station if they want and no Permit to Travel machine or ticket office. And you would still be liable to pay a Penalty Fare.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is that true? I still use paper tickets and I'm a relatively experienced traveller, having used the railways fairly regularly since 1982.

We‘re currently just under 80% Smart tickets across our retail estate.

 

[jon0844]

But if someone does have valid tickets for their entire journey, is it really fair to harass them and require the person spend time and effort proving to the TOC that they did, actually, not evade?

It's the TOC that needs to spend the time and effort proving the passenger evaded, not the reverse.

That's the reason I'm asking, because if you were tapping in on one ticket and tapped out on another at a time that made it clear you travelled on the same train - could you be asked to present evidence of a ticket to bridge the gap?

Clearly people try to avoid scanning their ticket (in some cases going on to refund them) but once manually checked, such tricks can become very obvious.

Today someone might ask to see an extra ticket in person, so what's the difference if someone wrote to you later to ask? Again, I think this is a valid discussion point.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A long queue is not a reason to quash a PF, but it IS an underlying requirement of being allowed to establish a PF scheme.

Sadly it is not a requirement which is enforced.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when all ticket offices are closed

 

[southern442]

No, you said (or implied) that you have sympathy with people who steal from the railway because (in your view) it’s too expensive. I’ve asked whether someone who steals from Waitrose is better than someone who steals from Tescos?

No, that's not the logic I was going for. They're both food shops, if one is too expensive you got to a cheaper one. That's not the same. You yourself admitted that there isn't really any alternative to rail travel (do you expect me to get a series of buses or walk from Coulsdon South to Woburn Sands?). If there was only one supermarket in the UK and it was all waitrose prices, then of course I'd have more sympathy with the poorest in society shoplifting.

As an aside, nobody is forced to travel by railway. If you can’t afford it there’s national express, Or walking, or not going at all?

If you can't afford rent or a mortgage have you tried building your own house and central heating system? An extreme example but I hope you understand.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when all ticket offices are closed

Indeed.

There's an argument that "There's an app" may just about be appropriate for long-distance TOCs, but certainly not for local TOCs where advance tickets don't exist.

There is no longer a requirement to obtain permission to establish a PF scheme. The revised Regulations which came into force in 2018 changed a lot of things.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed.

There's an argument that "There's an app" may just about be appropriate for long-distance TOCs, but certainly not for local TOCs where advance tickets don't exist.

Most local rail services throughout Europe sell via TVMs only.

 

[Meole]

A ticket agent on the Coastway told me that occasional platform end checks on the many unstaffed stations generally produces 80% ticketless travellers, apparently Southern are seeking to close the few ticket kiosks that remain which he said could only increase the evasion level.

 

[Starmill]

A ticket agent on the Coastway told me that occasional platform end checks on the many unstaffed stations generally produces 80% ticketless travellers, apparently Southern are seeking to close the few ticket kiosks that remain which he said could only increase the evasion level.

Permanent closure of ticket offices is an England-wide policy the government have been keen on for a while.

However, as yet they don't appear to have published anything specific.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

We‘re currently just under 80% Smart tickets across our retail estate.

But that includes a lot of paper tickets doesn't it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

Well here is an example, on at least one occasion one of my friends has turned up at a Denham Golf Club station which is unmanned and been unable to buy a ticket from the machine which wasn’t working. They have then boarded the train and got off at Princes Risborough where I live having not seen a single ticket check on the train or been able to buy a ticket. The ticket office at Risborough has been shut and the machine there not accepting cash.

So in this situation should Trudie come back the following day, leave cash and a note in an envelope stuck to the ticket office window, buy a ticket online with a phone that she doesn’t have with her or take the free ride safe in the knowledge that she wanted to pay for the service but was unable to???

frustration of contract comes to mind. If the railway had manned ticket offices at all times when the trains were running this wouldn’t happen…….

This used to be a remarkably common situation, especially between two secondary stations, or at the weekend when ticket offices were more likely to be closed.

Now with the advent of pay as you go and digital retailing this is much less likely to affect people. It's probably only an ongoing issue for those who don't have a smartphone, or are using Southeastern or Merseyrail, where there's still a high chance of no eticket or mticket being available.

 

[Tallguy]

On the few times I've had to board a train without a ticket, either because the ticket machine was out of action or ticket type not available, I have boarded the train near where the guard is situated and said I need to buy a ticket.
Easier if they physically alight from the train rather than just look out the rear cab window.

I realise this is not always possible with a long train where joining passengers may be unaware of where the guard will be situated but on short trains it normally works.

It is also possible to walk through the train to find the guard, knocking on the door if they are locked in the rear cab.

Chiltern trains don’t have guards…….

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern trains don’t have guards…….

They do north of Banbury plus the LHCS throughout.