Attitudes to ticketless travel

[ChewChewTrain]

When reading this forum, I’m sometimes reminded of a conversation from my teens. I was with a friend and his father, and we got onto the subject of train travel.

The father, completely unprompted, casually and happily related a recent incident where he had got onto a train and then realised he’d forgotten to buy a ticket. So, he said, he simply sat there and hoped no-one would come round. To his relief, that was what happened, and so he just made his way out of the unbarriered destination station and that was that.

This was a guy who I always found to be decent, respectable, and responsible, yet here he was unabashedly corrupting his son and his friend by telling us ticketless travel was fine as long as one got away with it. He’d never have dreamed of shoplifting even a Mars bar, and certainly wouldn’t have told us if he’d done so (even unintentionally). But not paying a train fare that was many times the cost of a Mars bar was, apparently, a wholly different matter.

Why do so many people think ticketless travel isn’t a “proper” form of theft? Is it because the train still travels regardless and there’s no obvious immediate loss to the train company? I certainly get the impression that many who ask for help on this forum are surprised at the severity of the railway’s response, almost like some of them thought ticketless travel was the one socially acceptable way of being “naughty”, and others had maybe been getting away with other types of “acquisition” and so assumed ticketless travel would if anything be taken even less seriously.

 

[bramling]

When reading this forum, I’m sometimes reminded of a conversation from my teens. I was with a friend and his father, and we got onto the subject of train travel.

The father, completely unprompted, casually and happily related a recent incident where he had got onto a train and then realised he’d forgotten to buy a ticket. So, he said, he simply sat there and hoped no-one would come round. To his relief, that was what happened, and so he just made his way out of the unbarriered destination station and that was that.

This was a guy who I always found to be decent, respectable, and responsible, yet here he was unabashedly corrupting his son and his friend by telling us ticketless travel was fine as long as one got away with it. He’d never have dreamed of shoplifting even a Mars bar, and certainly wouldn’t have told us if he’d done so (even unintentionally). But not paying a train fare that was many times the cost of a Mars bar was, apparently, a wholly different matter.

Why do so many people think ticketless travel isn’t a “proper” form of theft? Is it because the train still travels regardless and there’s no obvious immediate loss to the train company? I certainly get the impression that many who ask for help on this forum are surprised at the severity of the railway’s response, almost like some of them thought ticketless travel was the one socially acceptable way of being “naughty”, and others had maybe been getting away with other types of “acquisition” and so assumed ticketless travel would if anything be taken even less seriously.

I suspect for some people the difference is simply they would be less likely to “chance it” in a shop as they feel they are more likely to get caught and/or more likely to suffer consequences. Were that not the case, more would try it on.

So I don’t think it really comes down to whether people perceive it as more or less respectable. Let’s be honest, we see what a good number of people are *really* like when they step inside a car. Again, in this environment they do things they wouldn’t dream of doing face-to-face, simply because in this case the relative security of being inside a car means they can get away with stuff which if done face-to-face would get them shouted down or perhaps a smack in the face.

 

[RPI]

This is the problem, casual fare evasion has become socially acceptable, not helped by the railways general poor attitude to checking tickets meaning its quite easy! Some people would rather chance a £20 PF once a month as it still works out cheaper.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Like many, I grew up in the age of the PayTrain, where you *did* sit and wait for the man to come and take your money. There was no other option, as all the ticket offices were closed. And if they didn't, then happy days, their choice.

The PayTrain idea has gone, but naturally the railway companies haven't extended ticket office hours or staffing, and queue-time requirements under Penalty Fare regulations are routinely ignored. TOCs want to close yet more ticket offices. TVMs are fine but can't replace people.

Example: my local station used to be Apsley, in Herts on the WCML. LM- as was- routinely had the ticket office closed due to staffing issues and there was one TVM at the station. The queue to buy a ticket could exceed 15 minutes in the morning peak or on a Saturday morning. Yet people getting on without buying a ticket are the bad guys? I'm not convinced.

 

[RPI]

Like many, I grew up in the age of the PayTrain, where you *did* sit and wait for the man to come and take your money. There was no other option, as all the ticket offices were closed. And if they didn't, then happy days, their choice.

The PayTrain idea has gone, but naturally the railway companies haven't extended ticket office hours or staffing, and queue-time requirements under Penalty Fare regulations are routinely ignored. TOCs want to close yet more ticket offices. TVMs are fine but can't replace people.

Example: my local station used to be Apsley, in Herts on the WCML. LM- as was- routinely had the ticket office closed due to staffing issues and there was one TVM at the station. The queue to buy a ticket could exceed 15 minutes in the morning peak or on a Saturday morning. Yet people getting on without buying a ticket are the bad guys? I'm not convinced.

The vast majority now use E-Tickets so the ticket office/TVM argument isn't as relevant as once was.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The vast majority now use E-Tickets so the ticket office/TVM argument isn't as relevant as once was.

I'd be interested in the statistics around ticket media- especially in areas away from London. For some demographics it is probably true, but for many others I'm less convinced, as it mostly seems to be the justification for DfT pushing to sack all the station staff.

I certainly don't trust e-tickets; a piece of paper doesn't crash or run out of battery.

I'm all in favour of making it easier to buy tickets, but I'm wary that "there's an app" is being used to exempt TOCs from their requirements to facilitate retail at the station.

 

[Southern Beau]

I’d like to see some statistics on how many passengers actually use e-tickets. The “vast majority” comment is certainly not true on trains which I travel on but I’d be happy to be disproved that this is a regional variation.

@RPI (and anyone else) - can you provide a data source for use of e tickets versus other methods?

 

[jumble]

Like many, I grew up in the age of the PayTrain, where you *did* sit and wait for the man to come and take your money. There was no other option, as all the ticket offices were closed. And if they didn't, then happy days, their choice.

The PayTrain idea has gone, but naturally the railway companies haven't extended ticket office hours or staffing, and queue-time requirements under Penalty Fare regulations are routinely ignored. TOCs want to close yet more ticket offices. TVMs are fine but can't replace people.

Example: my local station used to be Apsley, in Herts on the WCML. LM- as was- routinely had the ticket office closed due to staffing issues and there was one TVM at the station. The queue to buy a ticket could exceed 15 minutes in the morning peak or on a Saturday morning. Yet people getting on without buying a ticket are the bad guys? I'm not convinced.

It is still active on the Wherry lines as it is quite difficult to buy a ticket at Berney Arms

 

[Gloster]

If you steal a Mars Bar from from a shop you have physically taken something and prevented the shop from earning the income from that object. If you evade a fare, well, you haven’t actually physically taken anything and the train was going to run anyway, so who has actually lost anything? That is, I think, the root of many people’s thinking.

 

[RPI]

I’d like to see some statistics on how many passengers actually use e-tickets. The “vast majority” comment is certainly not true on trains which I travel on but I’d be happy to be disproved that this is a regional variation.

@RPI (and anyone else) - can you provide a data source for use of e tickets versus other methods?

On an average day I probably check in excess of 2000 tickets, a good 80% are E-Tickets, about 10% smartcards and the rest paper/CCST tickets of which a lot are cross London ones that have been booked online (E-Tickets not available for cross London) and I work predominantly in a rural area with perhaps one or two trips to Reading/London per week.

On the London trips there is a higher proportion of smartcards than in the West, mainly for London/Thames Valley flows.

Just to add, I wouldn't say there is a particular age demographic either, as many older people tend to use E-Tickets as young, the only variation in my experience is that there tend to be a higher number of tourists that use paper/CCST tickets.

 

[Southern Beau]

On my next trip, I’ll take note of passengers on my trains. I’m predominately in the North West of England.

When you say “a good 80%”, is this an estimate? I presume there is no way of recording how many exact paper tickets are used as these are obviously not scanned in (recorded to a console)

 

[Haywain]

On my next trip, I’ll take note of passengers on my trains. I’m predominately in the North West of England.

When you say “a good 80%”, is this an estimate? I presume there is no way of recording how many exact paper tickets are used as these are obviously not scanned in (recorded to a console)

Train companies know what they sell. 80% is a very reasonable figure.

 

[Southern Beau]

Train companies know what they sell. 80% is a very reasonable figure.

If it’s ok with you, I’ll still take a note what my next train trip looks like in terms of tickets produced!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2022 ==

Train companies know what they sell. 80% is a very reasonable figure.

It would be interesting then to know how the regions vary across the U.K.

If I buy an open paper ticket through train line for Manchester to Preston, how does each train company (TPE, Northern) know which train I have used it on?

 

[Elecman]

If I buy an open paper ticket through train line for Manchester to Preston, how does each train company (TPE, Northern) know which train I have used it on?

they dont

 

[Haywain]

If I buy an open paper ticket through train line for Manchester to Preston, how does each train company (TPE, Northern) know which train I have used it on?

They don’t need to know.

 

[Southern Beau]

They don’t need to know.

Sorry, I thought you said “train companies know what they sell”.

I took that to mean that each train company knows what they sell, hence they would be aware of regional variations.

 

[swt_passenger]

If I buy an open paper ticket through train line for Manchester to Preston, how does each train company (TPE, Northern) know which train I have used it on?

They don’t need to know what you or anyone else (as an individual) did on the day, but they have been using statistical analysis since BR days to work out what people would normally be expected to do on a given origin/destination flow and fares are allocated to operators on that basis.

 

[AdamWW]

They don’t need to know.

There is a scheme for allocating money from tickets to appropriate operators, but it's not based on knowing what each individual passenger has done. (Or, I think, even on what passengers actually do in aggregate).

Looking up the "Rail Settlement Plan" should give you some information (the phrase used to be, but no longer is, written repeatedly in the background on ticket stock).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2022 ==

They don’t need to know what you or anyone else (as an individual) did on the day, but they have been using statistical analysis since BR days to work out what people would normally be expected to do on a given origin/destination flow and fares are allocated to operators on that basis.

I thought it was - at least originally and into privatisation - based on services provided, not what people actually do - hence accusations of ORCATS raiding (as described here)

I'm sure individual TOCs do plenty of their own analysis in order to set fares and advance quotas though.

 

[spag23]

Going back to the OP's story, if his father had gone out his way to make a payment at his destination, he ran a serious risk of then being reported for ticketless travel, penalised £100 and possibly prosecuted.
I was in a similar situation once, when my Keycarded season ticket had expired the day before. But there are barriers at St Pancras, so I had to explain the scenario to the gate minder. She (wonderful lady!) let me through to buy a £20 return ticket at the adjacent ticket office. But at an unbarriered station, I wouldn't have sought out someone to give me a £100 penalty.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry, I thought you said “train companies know what they sell”.

They know what they sell (and in which format), but have no need to know how each ticket is used.

There is a scheme for allocating money from tickets to appropriate operators, but it's not based on knowing what each individual passenger has done. (Or, I think, even on what passengers actually do in aggregate).

Looking up the "Rail Settlement Plan" should give you some information (the phrase used to be, but no longer is, written repeatedly in the background on ticket stock).

Thanks, but I am fully aware of such matters. The answer I gave was not to the question you think it was.

 

[Tallguy]

I hate deliberate fare evaders. Deliberate fare evasion is theft in my book as you are taking something that should have been paid for, in this case a train journey run by a TOC and not paying for it. Sadly I agree with Gloster that casual fare dodging has become socially acceptable. But the railway also has its’ role to play by running effective ticket check enforcement, particularly as there are so many unmanned and non-barriered stations.

 

[crosscity]

I don't condone deliberate fare evasion, but I must admit travelling and not paying the fare.
In the 80's and 90's I worked at Bournville and lived behind Kings Norton station. Sometimes I walked, sometimes I went by bike but mostly I caught the train for the three-minute journey.
I usually bought a Kings Norton to Bournville return ticket and it was very rare that there was no-one to sell me a ticket. When it did happen I just got on the train and bought the ticket at Bournville.
Occasionally I only needed to catch the train back home in the evening, and so bought a single from the Bournville booking office if I could. On the rare occasion when the booking office was closed I made the journey, but didn't pay. My logic: why should I have to make a detour to the Kings Norton booking office? If BR couldn't be bothered to have someone to take my money, why should I be bothered to go out of my way to pay?
Ticket machines and mobile ticketing didn't exist. Neither did delay repay, so I didn't feel guilty about not paying for the handful of journeys I didn't pay for - it was like my way of being compensated for the times I'd been delayed.
How naughty was I?

 

[Tallguy]

I think the example you cite there is that you were willing to pay but didn’t as there was no way to buy your ticket.

 

[Haywain]

I think the example you cite there is that you were willing to pay but didn’t as there was no way to buy your ticket.

Really? Sounds like fare evasion to me:

why should I have to make a detour to the Kings Norton booking office? If BR couldn't be bothered to have someone to take my money, why should I be bothered to go out of my way to pay?

 

[JGurney]

If you steal a Mars Bar from from a shop you have physically taken something and prevented the shop from earning the income from that object. If you evade a fare, well, you haven’t actually physically taken anything and the train was going to run anyway, so who has actually lost anything? That is, I think, the root of many people’s thinking.

Yes, another example is thinking that obtaining something from a shop by knowingly pretending to pay with forged money is somehow morally different from simply grabbing the item and running off without paying.

In technical terms, these are examples of what Piaget called 'concrete operational' thinking (which is normal in children) as opposed to adult 'formal operational' thinking. The concrete thinker gives more significance to physical objects rather than intangibles and is influenced by consequences more than by abstract principles. Hence they can recognise the stealing of objects as a loss to the loser, but not the stealing of services, and tend to equate what they get told off for with being wrongs and anything which does not lead to trouble as being right.

 

[spag23]

My logic: why should I have to make a detour to the Kings Norton booking office?

Is this detour a 30 minute journey, or just a 30 yard walk?

 

[dcbwhaley]

I certainly don't trust e-tickets; a piece of paper doesn't crash or run out of battery.

You can print e tickets onto a piece of paper which can be lost or damaged

 

[AlterEgo]

If BR couldn't be bothered to have someone to take my money, why should I be bothered to go out of my way to pay?
Ticket machines and mobile ticketing didn't exist. Neither did delay repay, so I didn't feel guilty about not paying for the handful of journeys I didn't pay for - it was like my way of being compensated for the times I'd been delayed.
How naughty was I?

Probably about as naughty as someone who goes into a shop, takes £5 worth of stuff to the till, finds there’s nobody in the shop, and commits the crime of theft by walking out. It’s not like that “detour” was especially onerous for you.

 

[Tallguy]

Really? Sounds like fare evasion to me:

Well here is an example, on at least one occasion one of my friends has turned up at a Denham Golf Club station which is unmanned and been unable to buy a ticket from the machine which wasn’t working. They have then boarded the train and got off at Princes Risborough where I live having not seen a single ticket check on the train or been able to buy a ticket. The ticket office at Risborough has been shut and the machine there not accepting cash.

So in this situation should Trudie come back the following day, leave cash and a note in an envelope stuck to the ticket office window, buy a ticket online with a phone that she doesn’t have with her or take the free ride safe in the knowledge that she wanted to pay for the service but was unable to???

frustration of contract comes to mind. If the railway had manned ticket offices at all times when the trains were running this wouldn’t happen…….

 

[Watershed]

queue-time requirements under Penalty Fare regulations are routinely ignored

One of the major problems with Penalty Fares, and especially the fact that they are shortly to be increased to £100 + the fare, is that there are no such requirements.

One can make an "other reasons" appeal on the basis that it's unreasonable to have to miss the train, but there is no guarantee of success (indeed, usually such appeals are denied).

Though Passenger's Charters generally include an aspiration for certain queue times, there is generally no 'sanction' on the TOC for exceeding these - and thus no incentive to meet them!

You can print e tickets onto a piece of paper which can be lost or damaged

You can, but you have to have the facilities to do so (not everyone does) and you have the bear the cost of doing so.

If the railway offered a discount for using e-tickets, or a way of printing them out at ticket machines, I wouldn't mind it nearly as much - but as it stands, they're gaining all the benefits whilst letting the passengers carry the costs.