Are the next rail strikes confirmed?

[Fokx]

Of course; the message was criticising 'management' and going on about how their particular grade was 'proactive' when the reality is that many of their colleagues are anything but proactive.

It is not just based on my observation; it is in fact based also on the position stated by Guards themselves.

I already answered that above; we have a TPE Guard criticising 'management' and saying that their colleagues are 'proactive' when in reality many are not. The TPE Guard then posted their justification for why they do the minimum. There was no denial that many of their colleagues do the bare minimum.

Again, to make it clear I wasn’t being critical of management, just pointing out in response to the post that it’s poor timing by the unions, by stating that the bulk of the front line and social media staff that will be interacting with passengers since the leak/announcement will be working this weekend. Whilst the decision makers (the management) on said issue will be off, causing less notice as supernova stated.

To be clear, I have absolutely no vendetta against anyone within my or any other train company. The DfT on the other hand…

Again, there are some guards doing the bare minimum, and I’ll happily admit that, but most are proactive despite the current challenges, as a whole we do care, but there are some serious HR issues affecting the industry, with extremely large numbers of demotivated and unhappy staff.

 

[Horizon22]

35% supporting isn't great when you consider that rail is a very small proportion of journeys; many of those 35% 'supporting' strikes are probably not rail users much if at all.

To be clear, I was talking purely in the context of what was being discussed, i.e. that striking, and supporting strikes, is not putting passengers first. Of course it isn't; how can it be?

That is not in any way a suggestion that you do not put passengers first, as an individual, while you are working.

Possibly. The second link had a much higher percentage. That being said, you can poll many aspects of life that people don't use, doesn't make their opinion less valid (even if you or I may wish it was).

 

[yorkie]

Again, to make it clear I wasn’t being critical of management, just pointing out in response to the post that it’s poor timing by the unions, by stating that the bulk of the front line and social media staff that will be interacting with passengers since the leak/announcement will be working this weekend. Whilst the decision makers (the management) on said issue will be off, causing less notice as supernova stated.

@SuperNova made good points; I agree with their post and strongly disagree with yours.

Again, there are some guards doing the bare minimum, and I’ll happily admit that, but most are proactive despite the current challenges, as a whole we do care, but there are some serious HR issues affecting the industry, with extremely large numbers of demotivated and unhappy staff.

Across the entire industry? Yes what you say is true. But among your colleagues at TPE? Come on, you can't be serious and you posted a long list of reasons why many of your colleagues are only doing the absolute minimum, so you do appear to be justifying that course of action even if you do not do it yourself.

If the existence of my grade was on the line, I would be wanting to justify it by getting out there and being proactive. A few years ago on TPE the vast majority absolutely did do that. But now it can be rare that you see them walk through the train, let alone have a ticket check. It was you who used the term 'proactive' to describe your colleagues, in what I interpreted as a dig at 'management' (I'll happily accept it wasn't; that is just how I read it at the time) but sadly this is a minority now.

 

[TheEdge]

That doesn't mean I don't fully support the union too. Perhaps if you did my job you would understand why I have made the choice to strike, but I don't think you care to be honest.

He doesn't. He spoken to one conductor and has been on a train so knows it all.

Of course; the message was criticising 'management' and going on about how their particular grade was 'proactive' when the reality is that many of their colleagues are anything but proactive.

So once again, you admit you are just broad brushing the grade, something you claim to dislike?

Have you used TPE yourself? Have you asked anyone else who uses the route?

No, so I wouldn't like to pass definitive comment.

It is not just based on my observation; it is in fact based also on the position stated by Guards themselves.

Indeed @Fokx posted some reasons why many of their colleagues behave in the way they do; did you miss that post?

Have you surveyed every guard? Have you spoken to every member of staff? Yes he posted the reasons some do, which I can fully understand. Whats your definition of the deliciously vague "many"? Its you trying to throw a quantity around.

I already answered that above; we have a TPE Guard criticising 'management' and saying that their colleagues are 'proactive' when in reality many are not. The TPE Guard then posted their justification for why they do the minimum. There was no denial that many of their colleagues do the bare minimum.

There's many again. Be brave and stick a number on it.

You are making this up; please desist.

Provide some evidence that you don't outright hate train crew and I will. But you really do seem to like to dunk on drivers and guards above all other grades.

 

[Fokx]

@SuperNova made good points; I agree with their post and strongly disagree with yours.

And you’re perfectly entitled to, just as I strongly disagree with your anti-union stances and personal views of traincrew.

Across the entire industry? Yes what you say is true. But among your colleagues at TPE? Come on, you can't be serious and you posted a long list of reasons why many of your colleagues are only doing the absolute minimum, so you do appear to be justifying that course of action even if you do not do it yourself.

Yes, believe it or not I work with some absolutely excellent colleagues. Some of which are even award-winning. That short list posted also affects me remember, and I’m still out and about! Don’t let the minority cloud your view of the rest.

I’m not justifying it, just providing a small number of reasons as to why some staff feel that way and make less of an effort now than pre-pandemic when working conditions were better. In my previous role, I was part of a team that was sent to a location to improve moral, and thus improved performance and sales, I understand the importance of a happy and motivated workforce but the control of the DfT is causing internal rot to the industry

 

[yorkie]

And you’re perfectly entitled to, just as I strongly disagree with your anti-union stances and personal views of traincrew.

My personal views of 'traincrew' (as you put it; we're talking Guards here) are that they should be proactive and engage with passengers in a positive manner and I find those that do not do this and simply do the absolute bare minimum and stay in the cab are actually weakening the case for the importance of the grade and this is not at all helpful to passengers and does not promote the industry.

We can agree to disagree; that's absolutely fine.

Yes, believe it or not I work with some absolutely excellent colleagues. Some of which are even award-winning.

That short list posted also affects me remember, and I’m still out and about! Don’t let the minority cloud your view of the rest.

On TPE, in my experience and of others I have spoken to, the view my friend has towards his job is not in any way a "minority".

 

[Fokx]

On TPE, in my experience and of others I have spoken to, the view my friend has towards his job is not in any way a "minority".

It’s absolutely the minority, and I can completely assure you of that. Full confidence. I will admit that those feeling that particular way are increasing in number, I absolutely won’t disagree with that, but they’re certainly much smaller in number than those proactive.

Perhaps your friend should actively seek alternate employment either outside the industry or within another TOC, as things are going to get worse before they get better with the proposed cost-cutting.

 

[yorkie]

He doesn't. He spoken to one conductor and has been on a train so knows it all.

Again you are making this up.

So once again, you admit you are just broad brushing the grade, something you claim to dislike?

Absolutely not; the attitude of those who are proactive is absolutely completely unlike those who do the bare minimum. I am not in any way "broad brushing".

No, so I wouldn't like to pass definitive comment.

At least you admit you have no experience of the matter @Fokx and I are debating.

Have you surveyed every guard? Have you spoken to every member of staff? Yes he posted the reasons some do, which I can fully understand. Whats your definition of the deliciously vague "many"? Its you trying to throw a quantity around.

It's a fallacy to suggest that every guard would need to be ''surveyed''; you do not appear to be denying that at least some Guards behave in the manner that is being debated, but you appear to be disagreeing with the scale of the problem, is that right?

There's many again. Be brave and stick a number on it.

How could anyone stick an exact number on it?

If it is the experience of myself and many others I speak to that Guards on TPE are seldom seen, are you suggesting that this experience is not valid unless every Guard is surveyed as to whether they are proactive or not?

Provide some evidence that you don't outright hate train crew and I will. But you really do seem to like to dunk on drivers and guards above all other grades.

Asking someone to post evidence they don't "outright hate" any group of people is absurd.

I've stated the behaviour I find to be unacceptable and I've pointed out that it was previously very rare but is now endemic. It is unclear to me if you are denying that the behaviour occurs or if you are simply trying to argue over the frequency of it? If you can clarify what it is you are arguing, that would be useful.

 

[LittleAH]

How odd? Because there was me thinking the government wanted rail staff to be more flexible when it came to working hours, does that not apply to management? The train crew, control teams, customer service and social media teams who proactively engage with passengers will all be working this bank holiday weekend

As a railway worker, a union member and someone who is walking out on strike - do you expect those staff - nowhere near the 'top' - to work on their weekends for nothing? These very same people will also be union members, they have also not had a pay rise in three years. Their contracts won't have added extras in. Imagine the graphic designers, the customer information staff you're defecating on with your comments. Leave us and them nonsense in the 20th century where it belongs. Fact of the matter, the unions have dropped an absolute whopper doing this today. Anyone crowing that TOCs are leaking information are talking out of their backsides too, they have a duty to inform passengers.

And just to give you some information, those jobs mentioned above earn a fair bit less than you or I do when you factor in rest day working, especially Sundays.

 

[yorkie]

It’s absolutely the minority, and I can completely assure you of that. Full confidence. I will admit that those feeling that particular way are increasing in number, I absolutely won’t disagree with that, but they’re certainly much smaller in number than those proactive.

If it is the minority why is it that Guards are seldom seen on this route, and that this is observed by many people I have spoken to who use the route?

Perhaps your friend should actively seek alternate employment either outside the industry or within another TOC, as things are going to get worse before they get better with the proposed cost-cutting.

Their plan is to become a driver.

In balance I will point out that a few weeks ago I had a chat with a TPE Guard who is extremely proactive and I have nothing but praise for the way he conducts himself, but sadly he does not appear to be in the majority.

Anyway it was the way I thought you dismissed the excellent point @SuperNova made and the way you referred to your colleagues in your grade as 'proactive' when my experience is very much that this is not typical, really wound me up, but I am happy to accept your latest posts and I also do appreciate that you don't deny that the problem exists. We can agree to disagree on our interpretation regarding how widespread the problem is and it will never be possible to put a definitive number on it.

But my overarching point is that the industry exists for the benefit of passengers and people who lose sight of that do the entire industry a disservice.

 

[TheEdge]

Again you are making this up.

I don't think I am...

Absolutely not; the attitude of those who are proactive is absolutely completely unlike those who do the bare minimum. I am not in any way "broad brushing".

You are, you are implying many, which would appear to be a majority, I'd call that broad brushing.

At least you admit you have no experience of the matter @Fokx and I are debating.

No, like you I don't have a full understanding of the situation so wouldn't want to pass an opinion as authoritative.

It's a fallacy to suggest that every guard would need to be ''surveyed''; you do not appear to be denying that at least some Guards behave in the manner that is being debated, but you appear to be disagreeing with the scale of the problem, is that right?

No, but the issue of some people being lazy is something found in every industry, it isn't a railway only thing. I'm absolutely disagreeing with the scale of the issue, and so seemingly is @Fokx .

How could anyone stick an exact number on it?

Wouldn't know, but you seem to have an idea as you are throwing around quantitate terms, so be brave and put some sort of figure on it.

If it is the experience of myself and many others I speak to that Guards on TPE are seldom seen, are you suggesting that this experience is not valid unless every Guard is surveyed as to whether they are proactive or not?

You are being nice and vague again. But no, of course not, but if you want to be accusing many across a grade then I'd want to know that you were doing more than basing it on anecdotes.

Asking someone to post evidence they don't "outright hate" any group of people is absurd.

I've stated the behaviour I find to be unacceptable and I've pointed out that it was previously very rare but is now endemic. It is unclear to me if you are denying that the behaviour occurs or if you are simply trying to argue over the frequency of it? If you can clarify what it is you are arguing, that would be useful.

I'm not after some watertight evidential thing, just something to suggest you don't default to a massive dislike of train crew.

Oooooh, endemic, so you do have a figure in mind and it must be big. Go on Yorkie, share it. The behaviour occurs, as laziness does in all walks of life, but it just isn't to the extent you are trying to claim.

 

[ComUtoR]

Again, to make it clear I wasn’t being critical of management,

You are well within your rights to criticise "Management" As a staff member directly involved with Management and whom may know their day to day working practices, it allows you to provide direct criticism from a place of experience and inside knowledge. I for one, welcome your open discourse, but politely remind you of any social media policy you may be subject to.

Wether you are front line staff, back office, support staff, or anything in-between, as long as we respect each other, open discussion and fair critism is always welcome.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think I am...

Of course you wouldn't!

You are, you are implying many, which would appear to be a majority, I'd call that broad brushing.

So, this argument is that you accept the problem exists, but you are saying the scale of it is smaller than what I perceive it to be, despite you not having any relevant experience in this particular area of the country which the argument is about.

No, like you I don't have a full understanding of the situation so wouldn't want to pass an opinion as authoritative.



No, but the issue of some people being lazy is something found in every industry, it isn't a railway only thing.

No, it absolutely isn't railway only thing but the scale of the problem does appear to be bigger (generally) on the railway than other industries though this varies hugely by many factors, such as by TOC, geographical area and more.

But, for sure, the scale of the problem - which we will never agree on - is far greater than it should be, at least at some TOCs / routes.

I'm absolutely disagreeing with the scale of the issue, and so seemingly is @Fokx .

Okay so you aren't unhappy at the fact that I find the behaviour concerning; you are simply arguing it is not as frequent.

Wouldn't know, but you seem to have an idea as you are throwing around quantitate terms, so be brave and put some sort of figure on it.

Did you not read what I said above on that point?

You are being nice and vague again. But no, of course not, but if you want to be accusing many across a grade then I'd want to know that you were doing more than basing it on anecdotes.

Well I don't really see what evidence could actually be produced that would satisfy you regarding the scale of the problem under debate.

I'm not after some watertight evidential thing, just something to suggest you don't default to a massive dislike of train crew.

This is absurd; are you suggesting I could ask you for evidence you don't default to a dislike of passengers?

Oooooh, endemic, so you do have a figure in mind and it must be big. Go on Yorkie, share it. The behaviour occurs, as laziness does in all walks of life, but it just isn't to the extent you are trying to claim.

As I said above, I don't understand this obsession over exact figures, nor do I have any idea what you have in mind regarding how such figures could actually be obtained and what exactly you would be measuring? This is getting more and more bizarre.

 

[Fokx]

As a railway worker, a union member and someone who is walking out on strike - do you expect those staff - nowhere near the 'top' - to work on their weekends for nothing?

Not at all

As all three of those things above, I believe that all grades should be compensated for non-contractual weekend work, either by overtime/Rest Day payments or through time in Lieu. I would also expect the more senior and directorial members of management (such as the head of customer experience and the MD) though to be responsive to changes in the business that effect stakeholders when required, but with appropriate remuneration for their time.

What I don’t agree with is using management aren’t working this weekend as an excuse for not taking delayed industrial action.

These very same people will also be union members, they have also not had a pay rise in three years. Their contracts won't have added extras in. Fact of the matter, the unions have dropped an absolute whopper doing this today. Anyone crowing that TOCs are leaking information are talking out of their backsides too, they have a duty to inform passengers.

Indeed, and they’re just as welcome to take industrial action with their respective unions, as some of them have chosen to do.

I don’t believe unions have dropped a whopper on this one, tbh I’ve not noticed people massively caring either way (apart from this forum)

And just to give you some information, those jobs mentioned above earn a fair bit less than you or I do when you factor in rest day working, especially Sundays.

Indeed, but Rest day working and Sundays aren’t part of the salary at our TOC though, and shouldn’t be relied on nor treated as such. I’ve worked a total of 2 since last summer.

 

[Bald Rick]

The rail awards to hit the TOC’s, the Conservative party conference to hit the DfT and new cabinet

scheduling a strike for the rail awards didn’t hit the TOCs at all. What it did do is really, really annoy the person who arranged them, and (apparently, although I don’t know) had a financial stake in the event. He happens to be the editor of RAIL. Not someone to get on the wrong side of.

Whilst the decision makers (the management) on said issue will be off, causing less notice as supernova stated.

I can assure you that the decision makers (‘management’) on said issue are largely working this weekend, and also Monday. And last weekend too, as it happens. As well as all last week and all next week. And the week after. There’s a special event on, apparently. And planning for a strike to be sorted. Personally I’ve worked every day this month, and no prospect of a break in the immediate future.

No rest days for the wicked management! (And no overtime pay either!)

 

[Class 170101]

35% supporting isn't great when you consider that rail is a very small proportion of journeys; many of those 35% 'supporting' strikes are probably not rail users much if at all.

Whilst they may not be rail users they do benefit by the fact that the rail user at a given point in time is not a road user at the same time so freeing space on the road for the non-rail user, otherwise the roads would be even more congested.

 

[WizCastro197]

35% supporting isn't great when you consider that rail is a very small proportion of journeys; many of those 35% 'supporting' strikes are probably not rail users much if at all.

And how may I ask are you aware of this fact and how sure of it are you?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

With respect, I'm genuinely shocked that some people can be so angry by the thought of the public wanting the railway they partially fund through fares (and taxes for LNER/Northern) to function.

 

[DanNCL]

I use TPE several times a week (or did until I gave up on them a few weeks ago because of the never ending disruption) and I can tell you straight away how many ticket checks I've had on TPE this year by a guard - one. So, at least on the Newcastle route, I don't think it would be fair to say that many guards are proactive. A few are, but from a regular customer's point of view it's the minority these days not the majority.

 

[yorkie]

And how may I ask are you aware of this fact and how sure of it are you?

Sadly in Britain the proportion of journeys that are made by rail, as opposed to other modes, is very small; I wish it was higher!

If you poll (a group representative of) the entire population for their views on an aspect of railways, you would be including vast numbers of people who in a typical year use no trains at all or just make perhaps a one-off journey. The proportion of the population that use rail regularly is relatively small.

Perhaps @Starmill might be in a good position to assist if you want something in the way of statistics in that area.

Unless someone has done a poll to determine the views of those who regularly use rail is, we can only assume that any poll which asks the general public for their views could be skewed by the views of those who do not use rail regularly (if at all).

 

[DanNCL]

With respect, I'm genuinely shocked that some people can be so angry by the thought of the public wanting the railway they partially fund through fares (and taxes for LNER/Northern) to function.

All TOCs are taxpayer funded - the DFT pay the TOCs a fee to operate the services, and the DFT also tell the TOCs what they can and can't do.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I use TPE several times a week (or did until I gave up on them a few weeks ago because of the never ending disruption) and I can tell you straight away how many ticket checks I've had on TPE this year by a guard - one. So, at least on the Newcastle route, I don't think it would be fair to say that many guards are proactive. A few are, but from a regular customer's point of view it's the minority these days not the majority.

I have also noticed this from my regular travels with Transport for Wales, CrossCountry, and even the once upon a time very hot on it Great Western Railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

All TOCs are taxpayer funded - the DFT pay the TOCs a fee to operate the services, and the DFT also tell the TOCs what they can and can't do.

Thanks Dan, makes my point all the more prominent then. Makes it all the more important that staff continue to remember the first and foremost purpose of the railway as a passenger service. I don't wish to pay for a railway that doesn't function. Why should I?

 

[DanNCL]

Makes it all the more important that staff continue to remember the first and foremost purpose of the railway as a passenger service. I don't wish to pay for a railway that doesn't function. Why should I?

But at the same time you can argue that the reason the railway isn't functioning is because it isn't looking after its staff. Look after your staff and they'll do a better job than they will if you don't look after them. It's the same in any job.

 

[Watershed]

Simply replying to Supernova that the management who give permission to post about strike dates are off this weekend

That's rather a large assumption.

I can assure you that the decision makers (‘management’) on said issue are largely working this weekend, and also Monday. And last weekend too, as it happens. As well as all last week and all next week. And the week after. There’s a special event on, apparently. And planning for a strike to be sorted. Personally I’ve worked every day this month, and no prospect of a break in the immediate future.

No rest days for the wicked management! (And no overtime pay either!)

Indeed. There is an inverse correlation between the amount of days worked by traincrew, and the amount of overtime done by "management" to cope with the resultant fallout...

 

[Wolfie]

Day before the Tory party conference in Birmingham.

... and 5 Oct us the day that it finishes....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

Couldn't wait until the end of the period of mourning before notifying the train operating companies of the next walkout...

And striking the day before the London Marathon when tens of thousands of people will be trying to get to London to raise money for charity.

Not a great look for Aslef.

ASLEF wanted to hit the Tories. Why should they miss that chance? They didn't announce it....

 

[O L Leigh]

Surely you cannot claim the Unions were putting out a business as usual message previously when they cancelled the strikes due to take place this weekend? Did they not also not talk about "respect"?

It is not the case that people are randomly saying the Unions need to stop carrying out their business, but any actions taken by the Unions now do need to be viewed in the context of what they said and did previously.

This may have already been picked up by someone else, but I think you’re going to need to quote chapter and verse on this as I fear that your memory may be playing tricks. Neither the statement on Twitter nor the notice to members mentioned that action was being postponed as a mark of respect.

But that’s all beside the point. No matter what has happened in the world there has been no moratorium on “bad news of future events”, as people are finding out in ways both big and small. That you consider it disrespectful is simply your own opinion, and one that will no doubt be shared by some. However, no matter how strongly you may feel about this, your opinion weighs no mare heavily than anyone else’s.

Can you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

I can, but I shouldn’t have to. I would have expected that a person of your age and standing should be able to recognise and understand levity when it is used.

 

[Wolfie]

I understand that, but perhaps targeting the end of the conference would've been better.

However, the rhetoric of TOCs leaking to the media is utter nonsense. Passengers should come first in these situations.

They are targeting the start and the end!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

I don't see it as hypocritical, they're complying with laws whilst respecting not striking during a period of mourning

Exactly

 

[the sniper]

scheduling a strike for the rail awards didn’t hit the TOCs at all. What it did do is really, really annoy the person who arranged them, and (apparently, although I don’t know) had a financial stake in the event. He happens to be the editor of RAIL. Not someone to get on the wrong side of.

Not someone to get on the wrong side of, as he'll block you on Twitter, adding you to a very long list of rail staff...

I can assure you that the decision makers (‘management’) on said issue are largely working this weekend, and also Monday. And last weekend too, as it happens. As well as all last week and all next week. And the week after. There’s a special event on, apparently. And planning for a strike to be sorted. Personally I’ve worked every day this month, and no prospect of a break in the immediate future.

No rest days for the wicked management! (And no overtime pay either!)

You deserve a pay rise.

 

[Wolfie]

It will achieve exactly what they want it to achieve and that’s largely to bring it to the attention of the Conservative government with the intention of triggering conversation.

How many MP’s and party members will now be discussing the strike, even if just socially that wouldn’t have done if there was no action at all?

They will have lots of other strikes to debate. For example every single civil service union is balloting for industrial action. Similarly every union in the NHS.

 

[yorkie]

This may have already been picked up by someone else, but I think you’re going to need to quote chapter and verse on this as I fear that your memory may be playing tricks. Neither the statement on Twitter nor the notice to members mentioned that action was being postponed as a mark of respect.

It was reported as such; perhaps you may argue it was misreported but it's not me making it up.

Train and Royal Mail strikes called off out of respect for Queen Elizabeth II

Unions confirmed the news.

metro.co.uk

Rail and postal worker strikes due to take place next week have been suspended as a mark of respect to Queen Elizabeth II, who has died at the age of 96...

But that’s all beside the point. No matter what has happened in the world there has been no moratorium on “bad news of future events”, as people are finding out in ways both big and small. That you consider it disrespectful is simply your own opinion, and one that will no doubt be shared by some. However, no matter how strongly you may feel about this, your opinion weighs no mare heavily than anyone else’s.

It's not the case that I consider announcing a strike as disrespectful; did I say that? If you think I did, I think there must have been a misunderstanding.