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Lockdown effects now killing/harming more people than Covid

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Red Onion

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Some are.

I'm not an anti vaxxer either, I've had all of my other innoculations but I made an informed choice not to have the COVID vaccine and I'm bloody glad I did. I didn't need it and am quite happy and healthy having not had it.

Yup, 18 months on and five hospital trips since mine. I felt utterly lied to as the information I was given made absolutely no mention of some of the symptoms I suffered nor that such long term effects were possible. Given that we were told that ALL safety tests had been carried out, why hide this? What are/were they hiding?

We were also told that the vaccines prevented transmission which has turned out to be another clear lie.

I lost all faith in the medical profession as a result of this and their lack of interest in trying to find treatments.

My single biggest regret in life was taking this jab.
 
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yorksrob

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Has there ever been much of a sign that they prevent transmission at all? Certainly the infection rate never really seems to have dropped much.

I would expect that if they stop you coughing and sneezing for a while, they would help to reduce transmission - as with some of the more traditional corona viruses.
 

DustyBin

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I remember the reports in the news.

It was apparent fairly early on that they were effective at preventing serious illness.

I agree in regard to serious illness.

It took time to work out that the preventing serious illness part continued fairly well into the future while the preventing transmission side of things dropped off more quickly.

This is what I don’t understand. We were told the vaccines were fully tested so how was this not known?

They did/do prevent transmission - certainly to an extent. Just not for as long as was hoped.

I’m not convinced there’s any real world benefit in this regard, and I’m not alone:


This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people.

I would expect that if they stop you coughing and sneezing for a while, they would help to reduce transmission - as with some of the more traditional corona viruses.

Do they do this though? And even if they do, even for a few weeks, then what? And does infection acquired immunity not offer (at least) the same level of protection against symptomatic infection?
 

bramling

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I would expect that if they stop you coughing and sneezing for a while, they would help to reduce transmission - as with some of the more traditional corona viruses.

I suppose that might have some effect. But would there not be the risk of increasing asymptomatic transmission, which in some cases could be more risky.

So for example you’re vaccinated and catch Covid without realising it, and inadvertently pass it to someone who is unvaccinated and CEV? (real example, incidentally, albeit during the period when the vaccine was being rolled out).
 

yorksrob

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I agree in regard to serious illness.



This is what I don’t understand. We were told the vaccines were fully tested so how was this not known?



I’m not convinced there’s any real world benefit in this regard, and I’m not alone:






Do they do this though? And even if they do, even for a few weeks, then what? And does infection acquired immunity not offer (at least) the same level of protection against symptomatic infection?

From my personal experience, I seem to have more sniffles and colds (one of which turned out to be covid), the further I get from my last vaccination, so I would expect so.

Also, I took part in one of the randomised covid tests during the pandemic and I'm pretty sure that one of the questions they asked was if/when you had the vaccine, so it would have been possible to calculate likelihood of catching it in relation to recentness of vaccination from that.

I suppose that might have some effect. But would there not be the risk of increasing asymptomatic transmission, which in some cases could be more risky.

So for example you’re vaccinated and catch Covid without realising it, and inadvertently pass it to someone who is unvaccinated and CEV? (real example, incidentally, albeit during the period when the vaccine was being rolled out).

That would only be the case if the vaccine surpressed the symptoms and not the virus itself. By my understanding, vaccines help the body to fight off the virus itself, so immediately after having one, you're far less likely to catch the virus with or without symptoms.
 

DustyBin

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From my personal experience, I seem to have more sniffles and colds (one of which turned out to be covid), the further I get from my last vaccination, so I would expect so.

More than before you were vaccinated?

I’m genuinely interested as we haven’t had a sniffle since the start of the pandemic, other than the one Covid infection in January of this year (which was rather more than a sniffle!).

Anecdotally (of course) I know quite a few people who claim to be particularly “sniffle prone” since they were vaccinated and are convinced that the vaccine itself has somehow affected their immune system. Of course lockdowns and other NPIs may have weakened their immune system (many of us pointed this out at the time), but again I don’t believe in dismissing peoples concerns out of hand, especially as this doesn’t explain the repeat infections they’re experiencing.
 

yorksrob

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More than before you were vaccinated?

I’m genuinely interested as we haven’t had a sniffle since the start of the pandemic, other than the one Covid infection in January of this year (which was rather more than a sniffle!).

Anecdotally (of course) I know quite a few people who claim to be particularly “sniffle prone” since they were vaccinated and are convinced that the vaccine itself has somehow affected their immune system. Of course lockdowns and other NPIs may have weakened their immune system (many of us pointed this out at the time), but again I don’t believe in dismissing peoples concerns out of hand, especially as it doesn’t explain the repeat infections they’re experiencing.

I'd say I'm about back to normal in terms of colds and sniffles.
 

nw1

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Can't say I've seen a relation between vaccination and having colds (or not), though as I've said before, the awareness of Covid probably means that people notice very minor cold-like symptoms ("sniffles", heavy head, slight sore throat, tiredness) more than they did before.

For example, this week, for a couple of days, I had my 7th very minor "sub-cold" symptoms of the year, and 3rd since mid-July. I'm sure pre-2020 I'd have had such conditions but didn't notice them. On none of these 7 occasions did I consider myself "ill".

Oddly I've had very few "proper" colds since Covid broke out: just two, and one was confirmed as actual Sars-Cov-2.

Regarding the vaccine, I do wonder about the need for boosters in non-vulnerable individuals who have had the first two shots and also actually had the illness (i.e three "doses" in total) - and am surprised some countries ban entry for those with just two doses, even if they have actually had the illness itself. Is this based on firm reasoning?
 
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DustyBin

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Can't say I've seen a relation between vaccination and having colds (or not), though as I've said before, the awareness of Covid probably means that people notice very minor cold-like symptoms ("sniffles", heavy head, slight sore throat, tiredness) more than they did before.

For example, this week, for a couple of days, I had my 7th very minor "sub-cold" symptoms of the year, and 3rd since mid-July. I'm sure pre-2020 I'd have had such conditions but didn't notice them. On none of these 7 occasions did I consider myself "ill".

Oddly I've had very few "proper" colds since Covid broke out: just two, and one was confirmed as actual Sars-Cov-2.

Regarding the vaccine, I do wonder about the need for boosters in non-vulnerable individuals who have had the first two shots and also actually had the illness (i.e three "doses" in total) - and am surprised some countries ban entry for those with just two doses, even if they have actually had the illness itself. Is this based on firm reasoning?

None of it's based on firm reasoning (or science). There's simply no need to be treating people differently according to vaccination status at this stage (if there ever was). I've had zero doses of the vaccine but I've had Covid (once), therefore I have immunity. What possible benefit is there to me being vaccinated/boosted? It's a complete nonsense.
 

jumble

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A very small percentage which would not justify withdrawing the vaccines or advising people not to take them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


H

I think some people will just look to blame the vaccine for anything.
However lets not forget that some GPs ( Dr David Lloyd ) in this country were in favour of mandatory vaccination and people being fined if they refused
I find it unconscionable that he felt it appropriate to take this stance contrary to the clear NHS position on informed consent and mandating that people take treatment that might kill or seriously harm them is a disgusting idea in a free country.
Frankly he should be struck off
 

yorksrob

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I think it's good that we're reaching a point where vaccination is targeted at those that are more likely to benefit from it.

I'm glad that my elderly parents will get a booster. Personally, after the initial vaccines and my dose of the real thing, I'm happy not to be offered a booster. I think we're at the stage where the latest coronavirus isn't novel anymore.
 

DustyBin

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I think it's good that we're reaching a point where vaccination is targeted at those that are more likely to benefit from it.

I'm glad that my elderly parents will get a booster. Personally, after the initial vaccines and my dose of the real thing, I'm happy not to be offered a booster. I think we're at the stage where the latest coronavirus isn't novel anymore.

Agreed.
 

Markdvdman

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My misses who works in a care home has had the 4th booster. She is 40 and has got covid. NO symptoms but says it all - I am not bothering with it at 52. If it was not for work I would not have had any.
 

Silver Cobra

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My mum, who turned 70 four days ago, got a letter this morning inviting her to have the autumn booster. After having the first three vaccine doses and generally feeling rather rough following each one (to the point with the most recent one that it seemed to affect her mobility for several weeks), she really does not want to have yet another one. I've said I'm happy for her to make whatever decision she feels most comfortable with.
 

Simon11

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China Covid: Quarantine bus crash kills 27 and injures 20 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62947897
A bus carrying people to a Covid-19 quarantine facility in China has crashed, killing 27 of those on board.
The coach overturned on a motorway in the south-western province of Guizhou. Another 20 people were injured.
The accident sparked anger online from those critical of Beijing's "zero-Covid" policy.
Quarantine killing more healthy people than the virus itself???
 
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yorkie

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The fact that it is Sridhar and The Guardian points to the pro lockdown attitude of the left.
The hard left, not the moderate left!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It seems to me that the mass-vaccination programme got the country out of a tight spot, therefore in the absence of evidence that it is causing an unusual increase in excess morbidity/mortality, I'm supportive of it as it took place at the time. I also think it's right to move to a regime of only regularly vaccinating the vulnerable.
Yep, I think this is spot on.


This is more than can be said for lockdown, which is increasingly looking like the wrong strategy.
Indeed; I think many people would agree that some measures to slow the spread were needed, but not to the extent that was implemented.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My mum, who turned 70 four days ago, got a letter this morning inviting her to have the autumn booster. After having the first three vaccine doses and generally feeling rather rough following each one (to the point with the most recent one that it seemed to affect her mobility for several weeks), she really does not want to have yet another one. I've said I'm happy for her to make whatever decision she feels most comfortable with.
If she is not immunocompromised there really is no need for her to get it, but I agree it should be her decision and she shouldn't feel pressured either way.

I wonder if the likes of Tony Blair telling people to get yet another jab is actually more likely to deter people taking it up ;)

I have no regrets at taking the jabs at the time but there is no way I would get another one, at least not on the basis of the current variants and evidence.
 
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Stephen42

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I agree in regard to serious illness.


This is what I don’t understand. We were told the vaccines were fully tested so how was this not known?
Randomised controlled trials (RCT) are normally for individuals, onward transmission is between pairs and often has uncertainty about the origin of the infection. The RCTs showed that the likelihood of symptomatic infection was greatly reduced by the vaccinations, this was maintained over the period considered in the trials. For covid vaccines while the RCTs also measured severe covid rates these weren't the primary endpoint and had greater uncertainty due to smaller numbers of severe covid cases relative to any symptomatic covid infection.

Variants were the primary reason for changes in effectiveness for less severe outcomes rather than waning. Given the variants to date it's unlikely variant at time of approval would be the same as after rollout completed. The disadvantage of waiting is the benefits to mortality and other severe outcomes wouldn't be realised for longer. Assuming that behaviour and non-pharmaceutical interventions remained the same in a no vaccine scenario, the direct impact of no vaccination rollout would have over 100k deaths in England based on the real world effectiveness data.
I’m not convinced there’s any real world benefit in this regard, and I’m not alone:

The benefit to onwards transmission doesn't seem present for omicron and was unclear for delta. The scientific evidence was rather different for alpha and to my knowledge that was when most claims of this nature were made. Studies found that vaccination in index case lead to 35%-50% reduction in household Secondary Attack Rates compared to unvaccinated index cases using multiple data sets. On top of that vaccination significantly reduced the likelihood of being infected in the first place for the alpha variant. Now that Omicron variants are the dominate ones the picture is rather different but that does not mean anyone who made the claims previously lied.
Do they do this though? And even if they do, even for a few weeks, then what? And does infection acquired immunity not offer (at least) the same level of protection against symptomatic infection?
There isn't a simple answer to this. A covid vaccine that protects well against symptomatic infection will typically make more infections asymptomatic and reduce peak viral load/recovery time for some who do get it. Infection acquired immunity should give similar benefits, most individuals will have a different history of covid infection (both actual and reported) and vaccination making comparisons challenging.
 

30907

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So will Xi Jinping now face trial for the manslaughter of these 27 people? (Rhetorical question, the answer is of course no, but he ought to...)
Quite, because obviously the bus only crashed (on a motorway) because the passengers were being taken into quarantine :)
There may be other deaths he should be tried for, of course, but that is OT.
 

nw1

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Quite, because obviously the bus only crashed (on a motorway) because the passengers were being taken into quarantine :)
There may be other deaths he should be tried for, of course, but that is OT.

But my point was that, with Covid no longer very serious, taking people away from their homes into quarantine internment camps is utterly pointless (amongst other things) in the first case, and these deaths would never happened were it not for this policy. The whole thing seems to be all about the arrogance and egotism of Xi and the Chinese government who are unwilling to admit that "Zero Covid" is unachievable.
 
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DustyBin

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Randomised controlled trials (RCT) are normally for individuals, onward transmission is between pairs and often has uncertainty about the origin of the infection. The RCTs showed that the likelihood of symptomatic infection was greatly reduced by the vaccinations, this was maintained over the period considered in the trials. For covid vaccines while the RCTs also measured severe covid rates these weren't the primary endpoint and had greater uncertainty due to smaller numbers of severe covid cases relative to any symptomatic covid infection.

I accept your point regarding RCTs and onward transmission, it doesn't however answer my question. What was the basis for the claim that the vaccines prevented (or significantly reduced) transmission?

There are a lot of unanswered questions in regard to the RCT data and unfortunately Pfizer appear very keen to keep it that way. It's entirely possible that actual vaccine efficacy was never anywhere close to that claimed (95% if I remember correctly), and possibly didn't even meet the threshold for emergency approval.

Variants were the primary reason for changes in effectiveness for less severe outcomes rather than waning. Given the variants to date it's unlikely variant at time of approval would be the same as after rollout completed. The disadvantage of waiting is the benefits to mortality and other severe outcomes wouldn't be realised for longer. Assuming that behaviour and non-pharmaceutical interventions remained the same in a no vaccine scenario, the direct impact of no vaccination rollout would have over 100k deaths in England based on the real world effectiveness data.

I'm not convinced that variants were the primary cause of reduced efficacy. Certainly in the US there was evidence of "waning" post-second dose before the Delta variant became prevalent. Variants absolutely won't have helped, but again any "inconvenient" data appears to have been disregarded, or at the very least overlooked.

I'll be honest, I find the entire "waning immunity" issue rather confusing. If it is simply the case that spike protein mutations are responsible, then surely it would have been better to allow low risk groups to gain infection derived (or natural) immunity? I also don't understand the obsession with antibodies, it's as if the vaccines don't elicit a full immune response (I'm not making that claim incidentally, but it's what is being implied).

The benefit to onwards transmission doesn't seem present for omicron and was unclear for delta. The scientific evidence was rather different for alpha and to my knowledge that was when most claims of this nature were made. Studies found that vaccination in index case lead to 35%-50% reduction in household Secondary Attack Rates compared to unvaccinated index cases using multiple data sets. On top of that vaccination significantly reduced the likelihood of being infected in the first place for the alpha variant. Now that Omicron variants are the dominate ones the picture is rather different but that does not mean anyone who made the claims previously lied.

We've probably covered these points already, but whatever benefit there was (and I'm sure there will have been some benefit), it appears to have been short-lived. Putting aside any questions over the way Pfizer presented the trial data, would it be fair to say that the information were we given was incomplete? I do try to avoid using the word "experimental" but there does appear to have been a lot of hoping for the best here in my opinion.

This is really the premise for much of my questioning and indeed criticism. Was it really necessary to coerce young healthy people into getting vaccinated when the alternative (infection derived immunity) was very low risk and offered at least the same level of protection? (Possibly greater knowing what we know in regard to "waning", whether as a result of spike protein mutations or otherwise).

There isn't a simple answer to this. A covid vaccine that protects well against symptomatic infection will typically make more infections asymptomatic and reduce peak viral load/recovery time for some who do get it. Infection acquired immunity should give similar benefits, most individuals will have a different history of covid infection (both actual and reported) and vaccination making comparisons challenging.

"Protects well against symptomatic infection" is the salient point here; how well and for how long?

I appreciate your well thought out and detailed response(s) incidentally, even if I don't agree 100% with your conclusions.
 

cuccir

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Was it really necessary to coerce young healthy people into getting vaccinated when the alternative (infection derived immunity) was very low risk and offered at least the same level of protection?

The fundamental problem with this question (and indeed, the premise of this entire thread) is that it's dealing with hypothetical scenarios that never existed. So it depends on what you model: what level of restrictions are you including in the alternative scenario, do you cut off vaccine access at 40, 50, 60, do you consider the increased possibility of mutations as the virus circulates...? The answer varies significantly, and I don't think there's a neutral ro objective answer to these considerations.

That doesn't make it a bad question, but I think it makes it fundamentally unaswerable from any objective position. You can make reasonable inferences and claims, but that's it. People both more or less for/against lockdowns and more or less for/against vaccinations would benefit from remembering that point and being cautious accordingly!

There was a pretty extensive observational study of the vaccinations and their impact on transmission of Alpha and Delta: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2, which concluded high level and waning-but persistent impact on transmission of Alpha, with low and more quickly waning impact on transmission of Delta.

I think it's pretty well established that vaccines have had a more limited impact on transmissbility of Omicron, but research is necessarily more tentative: this suggests some but short-lasting impct but note it is not peer-reviewed yet (published August 22). But then there's other research which suggests that prior infection makes you more prone to catching Omicron so in that sense vaccines may be preferable to infection dervied immunity. As different waves of Covid and vaccines circulate though it will become increasingly difficult to come to any meaningful conclusion as the number of possible vaccine-infection histories proliforate.
 

MikeWM

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The fundamental problem with this question (and indeed, the premise of this entire thread) is that it's dealing with hypothetical scenarios that never existed. So it depends on what you model: what level of restrictions are you including in the alternative scenario, do you cut off vaccine access at 40, 50, 60, do you consider the increased possibility of mutations as the virus circulates...? The answer varies significantly, and I don't think there's a neutral ro objective answer to these considerations.

That doesn't make it a bad question, but I think it makes it fundamentally unaswerable from any objective position. You can make reasonable inferences and claims, but that's it. People both more or less for/against lockdowns and more or less for/against vaccinations would benefit from remembering that point and being cautious accordingly!

I think this is a perfectly fair point - but the argument some of us are making here, and which really shouldn't be all that controversial, the vast majority of people would have agreed with this in 2019 - is that the fact 'we don't really know' makes it an ethical catastrophe to have threatened and coerced people into taking a novel medical intervention for a disease that was of very little risk to them personally. We're not just talking about how the situation *should* have been, which is that the vaccines were there, but it was an entirely free choice as to whether any individual wished to take it or not.

There is a scientific debate to be had about all of these things, but the problem is that one side has been deemed 'right', and the other side censored and ridiculed and excluded, even though the evidence that we have doesn't remotely show that one side really is right and the other is wrong. (Or indeed, if we're talking about other measures such as mandatory public masking, the evidence is quite clear that the side deemed 'right' is wrong, and the side deemed 'wrong' is actually correct).

Take mutations for example - some scientists were arguing that mutations were more likely to emerge from the unvaccinated, because they were more likely to have larger amounts of replicating virus in them to begin with and so errors were more likely to emerge. But other scientists were arguing that mutations were more likely to emerge from the vaccinated given the vaccines weren't sterilizing, using a similar principle to that of antibiotic-resistant bacteria (they emerge from those taking the antibiotics, not those who aren't). Both positions have merit in my opinion, and would logically lead to dramaticaly different strategies as to whether we should consider vaccinating everyone or just those at risk - but we only heard from the former in 'mainstream' sources, and those pointing out that the latter ought to also be considered were suppressed.
 

Philip

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I don't think we should just dismiss long term effects from either the virus or vaccines. I've seen some people brush this off by saying that long term side effects can follow on from nearly all viral/bacterial infections and, whilst I think this is true, there's a more noticeable number of people who have reported long term recurrent problems since being infected with this particular virus, some of them minor others mors debilitating; things like long term altering of taste, sinus problems and lethargy seem to crop up quite a lot.
I'm not suggesting this as a reason to bring back restrictions but feel there should be more research done to explore why a lot of people seem to be reporting long term effects, even after a mild infection.
I know of a couple of people who have spoken of problems since having one of the vaccine doses and whilst this seems to be less common than 'long covid', I think there should be some research into this too, particularly before another round of boosters is potentially offered to the majority of the population.
 

DustyBin

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The fundamental problem with this question (and indeed, the premise of this entire thread) is that it's dealing with hypothetical scenarios that never existed. So it depends on what you model: what level of restrictions are you including in the alternative scenario, do you cut off vaccine access at 40, 50, 60, do you consider the increased possibility of mutations as the virus circulates...? The answer varies significantly, and I don't think there's a neutral ro objective answer to these considerations.

That doesn't make it a bad question, but I think it makes it fundamentally unaswerable from any objective position. You can make reasonable inferences and claims, but that's it. People both more or less for/against lockdowns and more or less for/against vaccinations would benefit from remembering that point and being cautious accordingly!

There was a pretty extensive observational study of the vaccinations and their impact on transmission of Alpha and Delta: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2, which concluded high level and waning-but persistent impact on transmission of Alpha, with low and more quickly waning impact on transmission of Delta.

I think it's pretty well established that vaccines have had a more limited impact on transmissbility of Omicron, but research is necessarily more tentative: this suggests some but short-lasting impct but note it is not peer-reviewed yet (published August 22). But then there's other research which suggests that prior infection makes you more prone to catching Omicron so in that sense vaccines may be preferable to infection dervied immunity. As different waves of Covid and vaccines circulate though it will become increasingly difficult to come to any meaningful conclusion as the number of possible vaccine-infection histories proliforate.

I agree with @MikeWM. You certainly make some fair points, but I also think a line was crossed when people were coerced into vaccination on the basis of an at best incomplete, and at worst utterly flawed risk-benefit analysis.
 

Eyersey468

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I agree with @MikeWM. You certainly make some fair points, but I also think a line was crossed when people were coerced into vaccination on the basis of an at best incomplete, and at worst utterly flawed risk-benefit analysis.
I agree they crossed a line, not just in this country but a lot of other countries as well, though I am not convinced any risk benefit analysis was done. I agree the most vulnerable should have been vaccinated alongside anyone else that wanted it but the coercion was wrong.
 

Razorblades

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I also think a line was crossed when people were coerced into vaccination on the basis of an at best incomplete, and at worst utterly flawed risk-benefit analysis.

On the subject of these risk-benefit analyses, interesting that jabbing of the under 11 cohort has since been revoked:


Predictably this has actually provoked an outcry from the jabberati.
 

DustyBin

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On the subject of these risk-benefit analyses, interesting that jabbing of the under 11 cohort has since been revoked:


Predictably this has actually provoked an outcry from the jabberati.

Some people are clearly very selective when it comes to "following the science"!
 

Bikeman78

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On the subject of these risk-benefit analyses, interesting that jabbing of the under 11 cohort has since been revoked:


Predictably this has actually provoked an outcry from the jabberati.
My children are both under 11. There is zero chance I'd have made them have the vaccine. More kids get killed by motor vehicles than Covid.
 
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