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Why are there no clear rules on what should happen when a train is cancelled?

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DanNCL

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So there are definitely locations at Newcastle which are not impartial as far as selling tickets and providing information are concerned. Interesting.
The vast majority of LNER staff at Newcastle station aren't impartial even though they're supposed to be. It's been an issue there for a long time. It's worse depending on which TOC you're travelling with too - if you're XC's customer they'll generally be reasonable, Northern and TPE you'll liklely be fobbed off, and as for Lumo they won't even deal with you 99% of the time!
 
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IanXC

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Sorry I give in you're correct and obviously not listening to what I said. Just to be absolutely clear I do not work in a Travel Centre.

The TPE conductor clearly thought that alternative routes were valid. I don't know what the ticket acceptance message said, but if the Travel Centre were unsure on this point then surely the correct action is to find out, not simply charge the passenger more!
 

nanstallon

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I seem to recall that at the time of privatisation, the public was assured that splitting BR into numerous TOCs would not disadvantage the traveller. This 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' nonsense makes me think, 'for ****'s sake just get in the car!
 
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Just to resurrect this, a similar question to the thread title.

Today's 1045 LUMO Kings Cross to Edinburgh was cancelled, no driver.
The 1218 LUMO Kings Cross to Edinburgh is full and standing (I'm on it, booked seat thankfully), bags everywhere etc, as it's absorbing passengers from the cancelled 1045.

As the delay is over an hour were passengers holding LUMO-specific tickets from the 1045 not entitled to be rerouted on any appropriate service (incl. LNER) as a right? Or is that only if LUMO and LNER arrange ticket acceptance (or LUMO agrees in writing to refund newly-purchased LNER tickets)?

I ask as I use the ECML quite often and although I enjoy the "LUMO Express" it strikes me that unless rerouting is a right, LNER tickets offer much greater flexibility for alternative services without needing to worry if tickets will be valid, without having to wait too long for another service, and with a greater chance of getting a seat.
 

Haywain

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As the delay is over an hour were passengers holding LUMO-specific tickets from the 1045 not entitled to be rerouted on any appropriate service (incl. LNER) as a right? Or is that only if LUMO and LNER arrange ticket acceptance (or LUMO agrees in writing to refund newly-purchased LNER tickets)?
You have a right to be offered a choice of a refund or rerouting. But you do not have the right to unilaterally choose to reroute yourself. The rerouteing is to be provided by the transport provider who has let you down - Lumo - by arranging ticket acceptance or buying new tickets for you.
 

Watershed

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Just to resurrect this, a similar question to the thread title.

Today's 1045 LUMO Kings Cross to Edinburgh was cancelled, no driver.
The 1218 LUMO Kings Cross to Edinburgh is full and standing (I'm on it, booked seat thankfully), bags everywhere etc, as it's absorbing passengers from the cancelled 1045.

As the delay is over an hour were passengers holding LUMO-specific tickets from the 1045 not entitled to be rerouted on any appropriate service (incl. LNER) as a right? Or is that only if LUMO and LNER arrange ticket acceptance (or LUMO agrees in writing to refund newly-purchased LNER tickets)?

I ask as I use the ECML quite often and although I enjoy the "LUMO Express" it strikes me that unless rerouting is a right, LNER tickets offer much greater flexibility for alternative services without needing to worry if tickets will be valid, without having to wait too long for another service, and with a greater chance of getting a seat.
They are entitled to be re-routed but the problem is that companies such as Lumo do not seem to understand this - or if they do, they simply do not care.

If Lumo refuses to re-route a passenger at the earliest opportunity, the passenger would be entitled to buy new tickets to remedy this breach and to recover the reasonable cost of doing so.

Whether Lumo and LNER can come to a ticket acceptance agreement is neither here nor there really - if LNER refused acceptance on all services before the 12:18 Lumo, then Lumo should simply have told passengers to buy their own tickets and that they would be reimbursed.

Unbelievably, Lumo's JourneyCheck suggests that passengers should use the 10:23 or 12:23 Avanti services from London Euston to Edinburgh via Birmingham. As ridiculous as that suggestion is, at the very least they should be advising that anyone who can't make the 10:23 could catch the 11:10 Glasgow service, and change at any station between Warrington and Carlisle to make the 10:23.

Given how poor Lumo's response seems to be when services are cancelled, unfortunately I would conclude that you should only buy a ticket restricted to Lumo if you are prepared to pay for a new ticket to travel on LNER and to try and get Lumo to reimburse this, or are prepared to endure a lengthy delay and uncomfortable journey.
 

Haywain

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then Lumo should simply have told passengers to buy their own tickets and that they would be reimbursed.
Not that that would necessarily help anyone who didn't have the funds to buy a new ticket.
or are prepared to endure a lengthy delay and uncomfortable journey.
With no guarantee of a seat, for a longer journey!
 

Watershed

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Not that that would necessarily help anyone who didn't have the funds to buy a new ticket.
Indeed and therefore they should use their representatives at Kings Cross to issue zero-fare tickets to any passengers who are unable to buy their own.
 

Haywain

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Indeed and therefore they should use their representatives at Kings Cross to issue zero-fare buy tickets to for any passengers who are unable to buy their own.
Corrected that for you.
 

Watershed

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Corrected that for you.
I'm sure it would be possible to issue their representatives with ticket machines and thus they could issue zero-fare tickets, just as RPIs do for instance. But either way - telling people to wait an hour and a half to cram onto the next Lumo service, or to take an Avanti service round the houses, is an absolute joke.
 

Haywain

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I'm sure it would be possible to issue their representatives with ticket machines and thus they could issue zero-fare tickets, just as RPIs do for instance.
RPI's normally only issue zero fare tickets in lieu of 'dubious' tickets. If Lumo were to issue zero fare tickets in such circumstances they would still be required to make appropriate payments for them.
 

Watershed

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RPI's normally only issue zero fare tickets in lieu of 'dubious' tickets. If Lumo were to issue zero fare tickets in such circumstances they would still be required to make appropriate payments for them.
Of course - it just might make things a little bit quicker when processing potentially tens or hundreds of customers. And it would avoid the need for these representatives to be issued with a company card.
 

CyrusWuff

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Unbelievably, Lumo's JourneyCheck suggests that passengers should use the 10:23 or 12:23 Avanti services from London Euston to Edinburgh via Birmingham. As ridiculous as that suggestion is, at the very least they should be advising that anyone who can't make the 10:23 could catch the 11:10 Glasgow service, and change at any station between Warrington and Carlisle to make the 10:23.
Whilst not ideal, suggesting use of Avanti keeps it "in group" so tends to be less hassle in terms of arranging ticket acceptance, and the xx:23 services are likely to be less busy than the Glasgows due to the extended journey time.
 

Haywain

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Whilst not ideal, suggesting use of Avanti keeps it "in group" so tends to be less hassle in terms of arranging ticket acceptance, and the xx:23 services are likely to be less busy than the Glasgows due to the extended journey time.
Some people may feel that the delay repay payment makes up for arriving 3 hours later.
 
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Whilst not ideal, suggesting use of Avanti keeps it "in group" so tends to be less hassle in terms of arranging ticket acceptance, and the xx:23 services are likely to be less busy than the Glasgows due to the extended journey time.
You know it's going to be a bad day when your recommended alternative travel provider is Avanti West Coast!
 

miklcct

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You know it's going to be a bad day when your recommended alternative travel provider is Avanti West Coast!
I wonder the right to be accommodated in "comparable transport conditions" is violated, right?

The closest comparable transport to a Lumo service when it is not available, is another train on the same route, as any person with normal intelligence will say.

If Lumo refuses to accommodate its passengers on the LNER services departing at the closest time, I don't think it will stand scrutiny in court, right? Has there been similar court cases before?
 

DanNCL

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Hardly a surprise that Lumo aren’t rerouting customers when they share a control room with TPE who have a habit of leaving people stranded.
 

Hadders

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I wonder the right to be accommodated in "comparable transport conditions" is violated, right?

The closest comparable transport to a Lumo service when it is not available, is another train on the same route, as any person with normal intelligence will say.

If Lumo refuses to accommodate its passengers on the LNER services departing at the closest time, I don't think it will stand scrutiny in court, right? Has there been similar court cases before?
You have a right to be transported from your origin to your destination, not to be transported on the exact same route.
 

miklcct

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You have a right to be transported from your origin to your destination, not to be transported on the exact same route.
The following is a direct quote from the EU website (the related regulation has been retained post-Brexit):

Your train was cancelled

If you are delayed due to a cancelled train, meaning you would arrive at your final destination with a delay of more than 60 minutes, you have the right to:

cancel your travel plans and ask for a refund of your ticket – this may be a full or partial refund (covering the part of the journey not made)
you may also be entitled to a return journey to your initial point of departure, if the delay due to the cancelled train prevents you from fulfilling the purpose of your trip, or
transport to your final destination at the earliest opportunity (or on a date of your choosing) under comparable conditions. This includes alternative transport when the train is blocked and the service is suspended
assistance in the form of meals and refreshments (proportionate to the waiting time) if the delay is longer than 1 hour
accommodation if you have to stay overnight

If you decide to continue your journey as planned or accept alternative transport to your destination, you may be entitled to compensation.

I don't think that telling a Lumo passenger to go to Euston (instead of Kings Cross) and travel on another line (WCML instead of ECML) qualifies as "comparable conditions", when the alternative of LNER exists.
 

XAM2175

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I wonder the right to be accommodated in "comparable transport conditions" is violated, right?

The closest comparable transport to a Lumo service when it is not available, is another train on the same route, as any person with normal intelligence will say.
The regulation specifically uses the phrase "re-routed" in comparable conditions, so I fail to see how actually being re-routed is a violation.
 

Watershed

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The regulation specifically uses the phrase "re-routed" in comparable conditions, so I fail to see how actually being re-routed is a violation.
Being re-routed isn't the problem - the issue is that re-routing passengers on Avanti isn't remotely close to being the "earliest opportunity".

It's important to note that, if LNER were unwilling to provide ticket acceptance, that doesn't automatically mean that their trains fall out of consideration. If an ordinary member of the public is still able to buy a ticket and travel on earlier LNER services then they clearly present an earlier opportunity.

It would only be in the event of disruption affecting all ECML services (e.g. one of the frustratingly common OLE problems) that re-routing via the WCML would likely to be the earliest opportunity.

And even then, as previously mentioned - passengers should be offered the choice of taking a Glasgow fast as far as Warrington-Carlisle and then changing onto the Edinburgh service, rather than slogging round via Birmingham.
 

XAM2175

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Being re-routed isn't the problem - the issue is that re-routing passengers on Avanti isn't remotely close to being the "earliest opportunity".
I was responding to the post in the assumption that they objected either to Avanti or to being taken via a route that they hadn't carefully planned for themselves - especially seeing as they've now doubled-down on complaining about the "comparable conditions" aspect rather the the delay-to-arrival aspect.

I agree completely that if an LNER service provides an earlier opportunity than an Avanti departure than it would be wrong for it to not be offered, and that if there is no ECML option the passenger should be able to chose whether or not to travel via Birmingham depending on their preference of a faster journey or a single-seat one.

As an extension I would also contend that even if Avanti were the earliest possible opportunity, a passenger would still be within their rights to wait for a subsequent LNER service per Article 16(c) (... later date at the passenger's convenience).
 

Haywain

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It would only be in the event of disruption affecting all ECML services (e.g. one of the frustratingly common OLE problems) that re-routing via the WCML would likely to be the earliest opportunity.
In that situation (red or black status disruption) there would be ticket acceptance on LNER as the longer LNER trains would be prioritised for a limited number of paths available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

a passenger would still be within their rights to wait for a subsequent LNER service per Article 16(c) (... later date at the passenger's convenience).
I’m not sure that an alternative operator is a reasonable option if a later date is chosen.
 

XAM2175

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I’m not sure that an alternative operator is a reasonable option if a later date is chosen.
The exact wording of the article is "continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience", without any mention of it needing to be reasonable.

However, I made that statement with the intent it be read as applying only until the next Lumo service was able to run. I personally wouldn't expect to be allowed to travel on an LNER service with a Lumo-only ticket at some distant point in the future on the strength of this regulation - but on the wording of the regulation alone there is perhaps an argument that doing exactly that would be permitted.

Your dutiful concern for your employer's revenue is noted regardless, though :p
 

miklcct

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The exact wording of the article is "continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience", without any mention of it needing to be reasonable.

However, I made that statement with the intent it be read as applying only until the next Lumo service was able to run. I personally wouldn't expect to be allowed to travel on an LNER service with a Lumo-only ticket at some distant point in the future on the strength of this regulation - but on the wording of the regulation alone there is perhaps an argument that doing exactly that would be permitted.

Your dutiful concern for your employer's revenue is noted regardless, though :p
When the next Lumo service is able to run, comparable transport conditions certainly mean a Lumo service, right?
 
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