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Why are there no clear rules on what should happen when a train is cancelled?

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ianBR

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My mother travelled today on a day return Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Hartlepool. The return service was cancelled and the next direct service would have resulted in a delay of at least 65 mins.

Having read it's up to the guard as to whether you can travel on another TOC's service after a cancellation.... i tell her to go to the ticket office to ask them to endorse her ticket to travel to Darlington on TPE (and then Northern to Middlesbrough), rather than having the stress of trying to find the guard before the train leaves.

Newcastle ticket office refuse to do that and charge an excess to travel via Darlington.

The TPE guard then says the ticket office was wrong and she shouldn't have been charged anything.


Why is it down to individual staff to decide whether to permit travel or not in cases like this? Surely there should be some standard rules so people don't end up with inconsistent messages.

And can she now reclaim any of that ticket fare?

Thanks!
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Presume the cancelled train was the 1740 from Newcastle for Nunthorpe, due to arrive Middlesbrough (via Hartlepool) at c. 1859.

What time did the person travelling (the OP's mother?) actually arrive at Middlesbrough (via Darlington?) and how much was the excess charged?
 

ianBR

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The actual journey was going to be Newcastle 17.40 to Nunthorpe 19.05 (it was a Nunthorpe to Newcastle day return)

The excess was only 2.20 but being a pensioner she watches the pennies and the inconsistent messages from different staff has annoyed her more than anything!


The actual journey was:

17.42 TPE to Darlington
18.22 Darlington to Middlesbrough (18.50)

She then realised there was not going to be an alternative Middlesbrough to Nunthorpe train for nearly 2 hours so had to pay for a taxi from Middlesbrough to Nunthorpe at that point.
 

ianBR

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Yes just checked the e-ticket.

Nunthorpe to Newcastle Off Peak Day-Return via Hartlepool Price £9.80 (with senior railcard)
 

Mcr Warrior

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So, the issue(s) seems to be...

The cancelled 1740 Northern service from Newcastle to Nunthorpe was the last direct service of the day (via Hartlepool).

Waiting for the next departure at 1845 from Newcastle (via Hartlepool) and then changing at Middlesbrough would have resulted in a delayed arrival time at Nunthorpe of 2100 (originally would have been 1912).

Newcastle ticket office have levied a £2.20 excess for "Any Permitted" travel via Darlington. Was this surcharge appropriate under the circumstances?

On arrival at Middlesbrough at c. 1850, having travelled via Darlington, the OP's mother then decided to abandon her journey and travel the final four and a half miles by taxi, rather than wait for the next train service from Middlesbrough to Nunthorpe, which wasn't due to depart Middlesbrough until 2042.

(Were Middlesbrough ticket office involved / consulted as regards the decision to procure a taxi?)

Not sure Delay Repay applies here, but it does seem to have been a problematic return journey, and, to cut to the chase, can any valid claim(s)/complaint be made, and if so, to whom?

Thoughts everyone?
 

Watershed

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As the anticipated delay was more than an hour, she was entitled to be re-routed at the earliest available opportunity, i.e. via Darlington.

She should not have been charged anything extra for this and indeed, in a case like this where there are specific fares for both routes, there is no advantage in having obtained the excess prior to travel anyway - it can be obtained onboard without penalty.

The issue she may face in recovering the cost of either the excess or taxi is if she didn't contact Northern to give them an opportunity to organise either.
 

yorkie

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My mother travelled today on a day return Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Hartlepool. The return service was cancelled and the next direct service would have resulted in a delay of at least 65 mins.

Having read it's up to the guard as to whether you can travel on another TOC's service after a cancellation.... i tell her to go to the ticket office to ask them to endorse her ticket to travel to Darlington on TPE (and then Northern to Middlesbrough), rather than having the stress of trying to find the guard before the train leaves.

Newcastle ticket office refuse to do that and charge an excess to travel via Darlington.

The TPE guard then says the ticket office was wrong and she shouldn't have been charged anything.


Why is it down to individual staff to decide whether to permit travel or not in cases like this? Surely there should be some standard rules so people don't end up with inconsistent messages.

And can she now reclaim any of that ticket fare?

Thanks!
Ticket offices are often wrong in my experience; if you are denied a legitimate request from a ticket office it can be worth asking the relevant train company/companies through Twitter and/or by asking the staff prior to boarding (where relevant).

She could ask LNER for a refund of the excess, but it's not going to be worth the hassle for the pure monetary gain however as a point of principle it may be worth pursuing it.

When I was wrongly charged by an LNER Guard I had to spend many hours arguing my case; I eventually got my £3.30 back as well as a complimentary 1st class ticket. However it was clearer cut in my case and most people wouldn't have persevered to the extent I did.
 

ianBR

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I guess I'm still unclear what the actual rules are here though based on the comments above and it would be good to to have clarity for future reference.


"As the anticipated delay was more than an hour, she was entitled to be re-routed at the earliest available opportunity"
Does that rule always apply if a delay is going to be over an hour?
And do you have to have permission from train staff in advance, or can you just take the next most direct route (regardless of TOC) and you will be in the right if challenged. Waiting for a response on Twitter could take ages.


Also - if you find yourself delayed by 2 hours waiting for a connection at some point in your journey and then decide to abandon travel. Are you then able to claim delay repay on the basis that you would have been delayed 2 hours if you'd waited around? Or are you expected to go to a travel office and see if they will arrange alternative road transport (I thought they only did that if the very last service of the day was cancelled)


Thanks!
 

yorkie

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I guess I'm still unclear what the actual rules are here though based on the comments above and it would be good to to have clarity for future reference.


"As the anticipated delay was more than an hour, she was entitled to be re-routed at the earliest available opportunity"
Does that rule always apply if a delay is going to be over an hour?
In theory, but in practice the rail industry doesn't always adhere to this by any means.
And do you have to have permission from train staff in advance, or can you just take the next most direct route (regardless of TOC) and you will be in the right if challenged.
There is no penalty for buying the change of route excess on board, so there is no advantage to buying it from a ticket office (with the exception of cases where you would otherwise be denied boarding).

In this instance I would have not paid the ticket office a penny and instead asked for permission to travel from on board staff (if I didn't already have a positive outcome via Twitter).

If they refused, and charged the excess, the best action would be to pay the excess and request a refund.
Waiting for a response on Twitter could take ages.
It might but equally it might not; it's worth asking both on Twitter and also the on board staff, where applicable/possible. You only need one of these to say yes.
Also - if you find yourself delayed by 2 hours waiting for a connection at some point in your journey and then decide to abandon travel. Are you then able to claim delay repay on the basis that you would have been delayed 2 hours if you'd waited around? Or are you expected to go to a travel office and see if they will arrange alternative road transport (I thought they only did that if the very last service of the day was cancelled)


Thanks!
If you use the tickets and incur a 2 hour delay, you can claim 100 per cent delay Repay (based on both portions if a return ticket is held). This applies to the whole journey. This is rather useful if it's a long journey on expensive tickets, but less so on a cheap journey .

Replacement road transport would only be a last resort and should not apply where a suitable rail alternative is available. If there was no onward train to Nunthorpe, the rail industry is obliged to provide alternative transport (this could be ticket acceptance for local buses or a replacement bus, taxi or other alternative).

If you abandon the journey and make your own arrangements then a refund would apply however this can get complicated and may not always be easy to obtain, especially if the tickets are partly used. If the tickets are wholly unused it should be straightforward.

I don't understand why the excess was £2.20 either as if the customer chose to use the more expensive route, the excess fare should be half the difference, so that would only be £1.10.

Unfortunately some ticket office staff not only make charges when they shouldn't, but also get the amounts wrong too. This is not an uncommon problem with ticket office staff by any means.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes just checked the e-ticket.

Nunthorpe to Newcastle Off Peak Day-Return via Hartlepool Price £9.80 (with senior railcard)
The Any Permitted SDR is £12

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=NNT&dest=NCL&rlc=SRN&tkt=SDR

Half the difference is £1.10 so even if the customer wasn't entitled to be re-routed the maximum they could be charged is £1.10.

Very shabby behaviour by the ticket office staff, but entirely in line with my (low) expectations and my (frequently poor) experiences of ticket office staff, sadly.
 
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DanNCL

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Some members of staff in the ticket office at Newcastle have a habit of this unfortunately. There is one member of staff in there I’ve made three unrelated formal complaints about for not adhering to the correct ticketing policy, and I’m guessing that I must be one of the only people to complain as that person is still working there and still up to their old tricks.

A huge issue in that office is when it comes to disruption. I have only once had a positive outcome from that ticket office during disruption, which was when I couldn't make use of the last day of a 7 day rover because of major disruption, so they endorsed the rover for validty the following day (after it should have expired).

Abandoned journeys are a huge issue with that ticket office. I've had two such trips and on both occasions I had to contact VTEC/LNER customer services to resolve the matter after the ticket office as point of purchase had failed to do so. The first occasion I'd been heading to Ravenglass (that trip was also subject to a separate complaint with VTWC regarding their staff at Carlisle), I'd got as far as Carlisle before encountering disruption on the Cumbrian Coast so I got the next train straight back to Newcastle. The second occasion I'd been heading to Lancaster, I was still on the train across the Tyne Valley when a Do Not Travel warning was issued for the WCML, so I got off the train at the next stop (Haltwhistle) then got the next train straight back to Newcastle. On both occasions the ticket office would only refund the difference between the ticket I bought and an anytime return to the location I'd reached before abandoning journey and returning to origin.

Unless I need a ticket that can only be purchased from a ticket office, at Newcastle station I look through the window before entering the ticket office to see which staff members are on duty, and depending on who's on the desk I'll walk away and use a TVM.

Some LNER staff at Newcastle station, not just in the ticket office but in all public facing roles at that station, refuse point blank to help out anyone who was not booked to travel with LNER during disruption, and can be particularly hostile towards those who are left stranded by Lumo and (to a lesser extent) TPE, presumably down to both TOCs declining to use LNER's dispatchers there but that's not a valid reason not to help out passengers.
 

Haywain

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"As the anticipated delay was more than an hour, she was entitled to be re-routed at the earliest available opportunity"
To be clear, the customer's right is to be offered rerouting by the company that has caused the delay and this does not put an obligation on any other TOC to assist.
 

ianBR

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To be clear, the customer's right is to be offered rerouting by the company that has caused the delay and this does not put an obligation on any other TOC to assist.
OK but if the only option is to reroute on another TOC's service how does that work. The whole thing is clear as mud!

Can any railway employee (regardless of their TOC) endorse a ticket for travel even if that impacts another TOC without getting the TOC's permission in advance??

And if they can..... why isn't there just a simple industry wide rule rather that it relying on the whim of individuals acting differently in each ticket office?
 

Haywain

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OK but if the only option is to reroute on another TOC's service how does that work. The whole thing is clear as mud!
That's because this is not in the Conditions of Travel but relies on something that was EU law and currently* sits in British law. If the only option is another TOC's service then the TOC at fault needs to either arrange ticket acceptance or pay for tickets for the customer to be rerouted.

*I say currently because some of our politicians would prefer to see such laws repealed.
Can any railway employee (regardless of their TOC) endorse a ticket for travel even if that impacts another TOC without getting the TOC's permission in advance??
In theory, yes, but it's a bit of a gray area and as you have found different staff may not agree with the answer given.
And if they can..... why isn't there just a simple industry wide rule rather that it relying on the whim of individuals acting differently in each ticket office?
You could have but overall it's probably better to allow discretion to be shown rather than have rigid rules. The rigid rules might not be favourable.
 

yorkie

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OK but if the only option is to reroute on another TOC's service how does that work. The whole thing is clear as mud!

Can any railway employee (regardless of their TOC) endorse a ticket for travel even if that impacts another TOC without getting the TOC's permission in advance??

And if they can..... why isn't there just a simple industry wide rule rather that it relying on the whim of individuals acting differently in each ticket office?
Ticket offices are extremely inconsistent, but are very much in decline and on the way out as there is a huge shift towards online sales/support.

While ticket offices might give good outcomes, my experiences have generally been poor, and so have many others who have reported on here.

Hence why it's a good idea to ask the TOC directly on Twitter and if they don't give a favourable result it can be best to ask the on board staff.

By all means ask ticket office staff while you await an answer from the relevant TOC(s), but if they try to charge you, I wouldn't pay it unless there is absolutely no alternative.
 

DanNCL

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Charge the X/S, we weren't the retailer or the carrier so as far as I'm concerened it would be up to one of those to do anything else.
In other words, 'not our train, not our problem'. That seems to be a very typical attitude of several LNER staff members at Newcastle station.

Yet if ScotRail dared do this to LNER customers at, say, Aberdeen, LNER would have a fit.
 

Watershed

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"As the anticipated delay was more than an hour, she was entitled to be re-routed at the earliest available opportunity"
Does that rule always apply if a delay is going to be over an hour?
Yes.

And do you have to have permission from train staff in advance, or can you just take the next most direct route (regardless of TOC) and you will be in the right if challenged.
Unfortunately the right is severely hampered by the need to obtain ticket acceptance etc. in advance. Of course TOCs frequently refuse to do so, meaning you are left in the invidious position of accepting an unnecessary delay or paying for a new ticket and hoping that the TOC will be cooperative at reimbursing you.

There is an updated version of the EU Regulation, which comes into effect next June (but not in the UK, for obvious reasons). It contains an automatic right to reroute yourself and recover the reasonable costs of doing so, if the TOC has failed to do so within 100 minutes of the scheduled departure time of the train in question.

A provision like this really should have been in the original Regulation from day 1. Rights are useless if there is no easy mechanism for redress where they're breached!

Waiting for a response on Twitter could take ages.
It's unlikely unless you are tweeting outside of the 'opening' hours for the TOC in question, or there is serious disruption. Ultimately it's still likely to be the 'least worst' option in many circumstances, and giving the TOC an opportunity to arrange alternative transport means they will be liable for the cost of doing so if they fail or refuse to do so.

Also - if you find yourself delayed by 2 hours waiting for a connection at some point in your journey and then decide to abandon travel.
If you abandon your journey because it no longer serves its intended purpose then you are entitled to a full, fee-free refund. If you abandon your journey part way through but still proceed to your destination by alternate means, it's becomes very complex to work out what you're entitled to.

Are you then able to claim delay repay on the basis that you would have been delayed 2 hours if you'd waited around?
You can only claim Delay Repay based on what actually happened.

Or are you expected to go to a travel office and see if they will arrange alternative road transport (I thought they only did that if the very last service of the day was cancelled)
They would normally only arrange specific road transport if the last train of the day is cancelled. However on lines with infrequent services (e.g. the Far North/West Highland Lines) it is more common for replacement transport to be organised for an individual cancellation.

What you can, however, expect, is for there to be ticket acceptance if there are bus services serving the journey in question.

The whole thing is clear as mud!
Exactly how it suits the TOCs!

Can any railway employee (regardless of their TOC) endorse a ticket for travel even if that impacts another TOC without getting the TOC's permission in advance??
Yes. But they may have been told they cannot do so, and therefore refuse to do so.

And if they can..... why isn't there just a simple industry wide rule rather that it relying on the whim of individuals acting differently in each ticket office?
Because that would go against the dogmatic nonsense of having separate TOCs that "compete" with each other. And because nobody with authority in the industry cares.

What does the National Rail Conditions of Travel say about this?
The NRCoT conveniently mention some of the PRO rights in passing, whilst omit to mention the rather important right to re-routing. Read into that what you will...

You could have but overall it's probably better to allow discretion to be shown rather than have rigid rules. The rigid rules might not be favourable.
Nonsense. As the revised EU Regulation shows, rigid rules could perfectly well be put in place, giving TOCs a set time within which to re-route passengers - or else face liability for whatever passengers are able to arrange for themselves.
 

IanXC

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Charge the X/S, we weren't the retailer or the carrier so as far as I'm concerened it would be up to one of those to do anything else.

So not being the operator, nor the retailer, but being the operator of the regulated ticket office, you'd not even suggest the passenger makes enquiries with either of these and just charge them anyway?

Interesting. All I can say is that I'm glad that when I have been in similar circumstances I have been at Leeds and in the hands of a Northern ticket office.
 

Wallsendmag

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So not being the operator, nor the retailer, but being the operator of the regulated ticket office, you'd not even suggest the passenger makes enquiries with either of these and just charge them anyway?

Interesting. All I can say is that I'm glad that when I have been in similar circumstances I have been at Leeds and in the hands of a Northern ticket office.
Obviously I would have suggested that the customer speaks to Northern.
 

ianBR

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So - if the customer was an LNER customer they would receive better service?

If a ticket office clerk can validate a ticket to travel on any service why wouldn't they just do that? I assume they aren't working on commission. The customer wouldn't even know which TOC was running any particular ticket office.

And what difference does it make if someone then tweets northern who tells them they can travel on the next train. That twitter team won't be contacting TPE or LNER first for an issue impacting one customer, so it's no different than the ticket office staff giving permission. It just extra unnecessary effort for the customer.

Interestingly the NRE website gives you a list of alternative routes when it shows a train as cancelled, without mentioning that your ticket may not be valid or an excess could apply.
 

ainsworth74

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Obviously I would have suggested that the customer speaks to Northern.
I was chatting with a conductor that I know about this and they mentioned that a message had gone out on industry systems to the effect that there was network wide mutual ticket acceptance between Northern and TPE in effect until 5 September in the event of cancelled trains by either operator. I would be surprised if the LNER ticket office at Newcastle hadn't gotten that message so it's disappointing that they didn't follow it and instead charged the customer an excess. Also explains why the TPE conductor didn't bat and eye and indeed advised that they'd been wrongly charged.
 

Wallsendmag

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So - if the customer was an LNER customer they would receive better service?

If a ticket office clerk can validate a ticket to travel on any service why wouldn't they just do that? I assume they aren't working on commission. The customer wouldn't even know which TOC was running any particular ticket office.

And what difference does it make if someone then tweets northern who tells them they can travel on the next train. That twitter team won't be contacting TPE or LNER first for an issue impacting one customer, so it's no different than the ticket office staff giving permission. It just extra unnecessary effort for the customer.

Interestingly the NRE website gives you a list of alternative routes when it shows a train as cancelled, without mentioning that your ticket may not be valid or an excess could apply.
To be honest if they had say a Ipswich not London ticket and the next train was via London then no I'd do exactly the same unless we'd been notified of ticket acceptance. I do get Northerns Customer
 

IanXC

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Obviously I would have suggested that the customer speaks to Northern.

So are there locations at Newcastle which are not impartial?

Ticketing and Settlement Agreement said:
6-30 THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION
(1) The general rule
(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.

 

IanXC

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Sell, provide info definately , where does that say authorise travel via invalid route?

So there are definitely locations at Newcastle which are not impartial as far as selling tickets and providing information are concerned. Interesting.

How is a passenger, or indeed the ORR, to determine which locations are impartial and which are not?

Given what ainsworth74 has been told, if a location provides impartial information then such information should include in this example stating that a ticket is valid via a route which is otherwise invalid.
 

Wallsendmag

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So there are definitely locations at Newcastle which are not impartial as far as selling tickets and providing information are concerned. Interesting.

How is a passenger, or indeed the ORR, to determine which locations are impartial and which are not?

Given what ainsworth74 has been told, if a location provides impartial information then such information should include in this example stating that a ticket is valid via a route which is otherwise invalid.
Sorry I give in you're correct and obviously not listening to what I said. Just to be absolutely clear I do not work in a Travel Centre.
 
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