Wrongly applying a 16-25 railcard

[Bucks123]

.

 

[Wethebest838]

Is this the first time you have done this? Well they will do a data request on ticket providers like Trainline to see if it has happened before.

Chiltern can be hard work as they normally use TIL (transport investigations ltd) to carry out their prosecutions and investigations. Lately, I don’t know if they are still using them? But both TIL and Chiltern take a hardline towards any sort of fare evasion.

But, it’s not impossible to get an out of court settlement. You will get a letter from either company that can take up to 6 months (they have 6 months to notify the courts). Make sure you set up a mail forwarding if you move house/flat. You may have to write to them about twice to get a settlement.

 

[Bucks123]

.

 

[Haywain]

Would u advise involving a solicitor at this stage?

No, definitely nothing to be gained from that at this early stage.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, thank you so much for your response. This is the first time I have been stopped but have applied the railcard on previous journeys which I imagine they can trace through Trainline. I am hoping that by apologising profusely and having bought a railcard since, the company can see my genuine attempt to correct my mistake.

Bear in mind you need to see it from their point of view - this isn't really a 'mistake' is it. Unless I have misunderstood - and if so my apols - You deliberately did this (buy with a Railcard discount to which you were not entitled at the time by virtue of not having a Railcard) by the sound of it (ie you now realise it was a mistake to evade these fares, but you did not evade the fares by mistake if you see what I mean).

However, this does not mean you can not reach a settlement with them.

I suggest that when you get the letter from them you work up your apology and request to settle draft and ask again here for any advice you need as people will be happy to help - but start by getting into the frame of mind that you didn't make a mistake and buy this ticket accordingly, you sought to evade an element of the fare due. By accepting that your letter to them is bound to be more likely to be one they might agree to settle, in my personal view.

Good luck with it.

 

[Bucks123]

I am so appreciative of your response and will draft a response email on here to see if people feel it is appropriate for such a matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am so appreciative of your response and will draft a response email on here to see if people feel it is appropriate for such a matter.

People will be happy to help. It's pretty obvious you now want to 'do the right thing' so just a question of persuading them of that, but chiltern trains do play hard ball.

In the mean time I suggest you work out for yourself using your own purchase records how many times you did this and then work out the fares evaded (sadly this will not be the difference between the fare without the railcard and with the railcard - but they will now be after the full Anytime single fare for exact journey taken without the correct ticket I would suggest) - this will give you an idea of what it may cost you to settle, plus maybe about £80 to £100 'admin' fee.

Buy buyinga railcard you can at least say you have learned that what you did was wrong and have taken steps to prevent it in future.

Obv any trips you now take be 100% sure to have the correct valid ticket - ie do not make a genuine mistake as they may think such a mistake is more evasion.

 

[Bucks123]

People will be happy to help. It's pretty obvious you now want to 'do the right thing' so just a question of persuading them of that, but chiltern trains do play hard ball.

In the mean time I suggest you work out for yourself using your own purchase records how many times you did this and then work out the fares evaded (sadly this will not be the difference between the fare without the railcard and with the railcard - but they will now be after the full Anytime single fare for exact journey taken without the correct ticket I would suggest) - this will give you an idea of what it may cost you to settle, plus maybe about £80 to £100 'admin' fee.

Buy buyinga railcard you can at least say you have learned that what you did was wrong and have taken steps to prevent it in future.

Obv any trips you now take be 100% sure to have the correct valid ticket - ie do not make a genuine mistake as they may think such a mistake is more evasion.

Absolutely, I 100 percent agree and have already purchased a railcard and will calculate the potential difference now, but will be happy to settle even if the amount they ask for is higher. I just wish to cooperate with the rail company to avoid this from affecting my career prospects.

 

[WesternLancer]

Absolutely, I 100 percent agree and have already purchased a railcard and will calculate the potential difference now, but will be happy to settle even if the amount they ask for is higher. I just wish to cooperate with the rail company to avoid this from affecting my career prospects.

You will just have to wait to hear from them now I think. As I say, good luck with it.

 

[Bucks123]

Hello! I just wanted to take an opinion of the chances that this case will result in prosecution and therefore a criminal record. I am due to work in finance and any criminal record would result in me losing employment. I still am yet to receive a letter but have seen cases not too dissimilar on this forum that have resulted in prosecution. Is hiring an attorney once the letter has been received too late?

 

[Wethebest838]

Hello! I just wanted to take an opinion of the chances that this case will result in prosecution and therefore a criminal record. I am due to work in finance and any criminal record would result in me losing employment. I still am yet to receive a letter but have seen cases not too dissimilar on this forum that have resulted in prosecution. Is hiring an attorney once the letter has been received too late?

Most likely, you will deal with TIL who act on behalf of Chiltern as mentioned earlier. It's not impossible and to be fair, I see a good chunk of cases get an out of court settlement but no 2 cases are the same. Plus, Chiltern/TIL are very aggressive in routing out fare evasion. You will most likely have to write to them twice or three times. From the case I had with my cousin, we wrote once and they gave us an out of court settlement.

 

[Bucks123]

That is extremely reassuring thank you very much!

 

[Wethebest838]

That is extremely reassuring thank you very much!

Easier said than done but try not to worry too much! It will be okay. I was in the same boat worrying for my cousin with crippling anxiety as we are close and their health issues made me nervous. Once it's sorted, it is a weight lifted off your shoulders

 

[Bucks123]

Thank you so much again! If it’s okay to ask, did your cousin use a railcard several times on Trainline. This is my first time being stopped but I’ve used a railcard on Trainline for short journeys before. I also take longer journeys but never apply a railcard to those.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much again! If it’s okay to ask, did your cousin use a railcard several times on Trainline. This is my first time being stopped but I’ve used a railcard on Trainline for short journeys before. I also take longer journeys but never apply a railcard to those.

@Wethebest838 makes good points and speaks from personal experience - which is important. But if you have substantial bad consequences from it going to court and you being found guilty (that will end up costing you in terms of jobs you can not get for example) you may indeed wish to engage a solicitor to help secure an out of court settlement.

If you did that in an early stage of the process they would presumably write to TIL on your behalf and this would make sure that those letters were as effective as they can be - having said that when people post their suggested replies on her you will get free suggestion on how to improve them.

But you could ring some solicitors to get quotes from them about how much they would charge to help you. I would expect to pay £500 or more for that in their fees, plus of course the payment you would have to make to settle out of court if TIL were open to being persuaded.

Not sure if it is up thread but as part of their investigation they will have looked at your on line ticket purchasing records with Trainline or any other ticket selling site to see if there are other instances of the fare evasion that it looks like you may have done, and they may also accuse you of them if the evidence is there. So if you used a railcard on any journey when you did not have one they will be highly likely to find this out (they won't care if it was just short journey - it's another offence as far as they are concerned and another reason not to settle with you) as they will have either access to the Railcard database of owners or will ask you to prove you had a Railcard at the time of the trip. I assume you would have difficulty doing that.

 

[Wethebest838]

Thank you so much again! If it’s okay to ask, did your cousin use a railcard several times on Trainline. This is my first time being stopped but I’ve used a railcard on Trainline for short journeys before. I also take longer journeys but never apply a railcard to those.

Off the top of my head, it was just short faring I think. I know my cousin has a railcard but I don't know if this was before or what not. I can find out if you want?

Like @WesternLancer said, you can attach a draft and we can all help. You have people like me who has dealt with it via personal experience and people like Western and others who have helped and have lots of knowledge from over the years. I found everyone very helpful and I owe it to everyone who helped me on here that we was able to get it sorted. Without them, my cousin would have been screwed. Hence, why I stick around on the forum to give back and help others!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off the top of my head, it was just short faring I think. I know my cousin has a railcard but I don't know if this was before or what not. I can find out if you want?

The relation of @Wethebest838 apparently short-fared by attempting to use a ticket from Wembley Stadium to London Terminals (?) at London Marylebone having travelled in from much further afield and possibly did so on more than one occasion.

Believe the family member eventually had to stump up over £300 to "settle out of court".

This was the previous thread...

*RESOLVED* Family member caught with wrong ticket

hey guys, need some advice. a family member was caught with the wrong ticket and they were told they will face prosecution and a fine of 40-500£ for this. It’s been the first ever time this has happened, the reason why it was the wrong ticket as they are on universal credit and could not afford...

railforums.co.uk

 

[Bucks123]

That would be an ideal outcome for me to settle out of court for any amount. The lawyers I’ve spoken to are charging in the region of £1000 for their services so I just want to makesure that it is necessary to use one before committing to that expense. I believe taking all the helpful information I have been given on this forum, is to wait to receive a letter before proceeding.

 

[WesternLancer]

That would be an ideal outcome for me to settle out of court for any amount. The lawyers I’ve spoken to are charging in the region of £1000 for their services so I just want to makesure that it is necessary to use one before committing to that expense. I believe taking all the helpful information I have been given on this forum, is to wait to receive a letter before proceeding.

At this stage wait to receive your letter. If that fails and if your second letter fails then you can always ask a lawyer then if you consider it vital to obtain legal help.
This firm have been mentioned on here before - no idea what they charge.

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

 

[Bucks123]

.

 

[30907]

I offer below some suggestions for cuts, mostly to reduce the length - fell free to ignore them!

I hope this letter finds you well.

I received a letter dated the ……… from TIL regarding a prosecution matter, of which I am sincerely ashamed and regretful. I wish to make an apology of utmost sincerity and an offer to TIL and Chiltern Railways, and I thank you for offering me the opportunity to respond.

(Comment: you are in no position to make an offer, you want them to make you one!)

My only and weak explanation for committing such an error of judgement is struggling financially as I was a student. I absolutely understand that this is no excuse and wish to do everything possible to ensure that Chiltern Railways is not out of pocket as a result of my poor decisions.

I understand that TIL should offer no concern, but I have recently accepted an offer for a job at a finance company, that I have worked towards for 3 years, and I am panicked at the impending offer withdrawal that will follow the criminal record for this fare evasion.

(Comment: do you know this to be the case? If not, you are effectively telling them to ask for more!)

This is the first time I have felt the weight of the criminal justice system and it is incredibly stressful. A feeling I will never wish to experience again. For the aforementioned reasons, I ask with the utmost sincerity if there is any chance at all you would be willing to offer an out-of-court settlement to cover the fares and your costs

(Comment: keep it short!)

This has been a deeply distressing period so far, and one that I have met with a strong reflection of my actions. I have since purchased a Railcard and will never ever make the same mistake again.

I hope to hear from you soon.

Yours sincerely,

 

[philthetube]

Probably daft comment, but I like the wide spacing of the paragraphs, makes it easy to read.

 

[Bucks123]

Thank you so much I will keep these suggestions in mind for when the letter arrives.

 

[AlterEgo]

A small edit I'd always make when writing an important letter or email: always finish with a call to action. Reiterate what you want or expect in response. You are in no position to make demands, but I'd close:

This has been a deeply distressing period so far, and one that I have met with a strong reflection of my actions. I have since purchased a Railcard and will never ever make the same mistake again.

I hope you see fit to dispose of the matter without court action, and look forward to your response.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2022 ==

Thank you so much! I will look into this immediately. I hope having a lawyer will ensure a 100 percent change of getting an out of court settlement, especially as I was fully compliant.

I regret that a lawyer will not be able to guarantee you can settle this out of court. It isn't within their gift to do so. They are there to represent and defend you, having committed a criminal offence. That said, it is worth getting in touch with a solicitor if you believe the risk to your career is grave.

 

[Bucks123]

Yes I absolutely agree. I have contacted a lawyer and will wait to receive a letter before instructing them further. I have found a lawyer who has vast experience with Chiltern Railway and am hopeful will be able to resolve the case promptly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2022 ==

Have there been previous examples of TIL prosecutions for a 16-25 railcard?

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2022 ==

Have there been previous examples of TIL prosecutions for a 16-25 railcard?

Probably - but it does not matter - they will pursue all infringements with equal vigour from what we have seen from Chiltern / TIL - just because the infringement may 'only' have involved a railcard will make no difference. The seriousness is conferred by intention to pay less than should by any means, as opposed to having paid less than you should by mistake.

 

[Bucks123]

Thank you for this genuine response. I am extremely anxious and acknowledge the mistake is mine, I guess the only thing to do is wait and seek advice once I know the contents of the letter

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is there an aggravating factor here, compared to most of the other railcard related threads, in that (if I’m reading it correctly) the OP never previously had a railcard, rather than continuing to take a railcard discount despite it having expired? If so, this demonstrates a clear intent to avoid the correct fare, rather than carelessly forgetting to renew

 

[Bucks123]

Yes this is correct. I take full responsibility and would like to do whatever possible to rectify this. I am extremely grateful for the advice given to me this far and would be grateful for any more insights on how best to diffuse this situation. I am happy to any amount that the train company deem appropriate and realise how utterly foolish my judgement in this matter was

 

[Gloster]

You say that you have found a lawyer with ‘vast experience with Chiltern Railways’. This may be an irrelevance and others may tell you to ignore a non expert like me, but who says that he or she has this vast experience?