195s truly awful, not a step forward

[tomuk]

Looking at internal photos, there does seem to be quite a few table bays.

They were originally order for the Northern Connect scheme so the layout was made more 'intercity'.

 

[urpert]

I’m surprised more people haven’t mentioned the “gear change”. It really caught me by surprise and brought back memories of Pacers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m surprised more people haven’t mentioned the “gear change”. It really caught me by surprise and brought back memories of Pacers!

141s, presumably? 142 and later didn't have mechanical gearboxes for very long, they had a habit of falling to bits and were replaced with Sprinter style hydraulic transmission. More like a heritage DMU or a bus.

The mechanical transmission can indeed be a bit jerky though it's not bad enough to be annoying, it just adds to the general cheap feel. The upside of it is the excellent performance due to the lack of transmission losses, unlike Sprinters and 170s which spend a lot of the time stirring and heating up transmission oil.

 

[urpert]

141s, presumably? 142 and later didn't have mechanical gearboxes for very long, they had a habit of falling to bits and were replaced with Sprinter style hydraulic transmission. More like a heritage DMU or a bus.

The mechanical transmission can indeed be a bit jerky though it's not bad enough to be annoying, it just adds to the general cheap feel. The upside of it is the excellent performance due to the lack of transmission losses, unlike Sprinters and 170s which spend a lot of the time stirring and heating up transmission oil.

Yes you’re probably right, some sort of folk memory of 141s on the Harrogate line in the late 80s!

 

[tomuk]

141s, presumably? 142 and later didn't have mechanical gearboxes for very long, they had a habit of falling to bits and were replaced with Sprinter style hydraulic transmission. More like a heritage DMU or a bus.

Most heritage DMUs and buses had mechanical gearboxes, the boxes originally fitted to Pacers were the latest incarnation of those same gearboxes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most heritage DMUs and buses had mechanical gearboxes, the boxes originally fitted to Pacers were the latest incarnation of those same gearboxes.

Indeed, but they didn't last very long in Classes 142, 143 and 144 so few people will remember them like that.

 

[tomuk]

Indeed, but they didn't last very long in Classes 142, 143 and 144 so few people will remember them like that.

Yes from one perspective it does look weird that after 1000s of DMUs, Routemasters, Leopards, Nationals, that Pacers fitted with basically the same engine and gearbox were such a disaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes from one perspective it does look weird that after 1000s of DMUs, Routemasters, Leopards, Nationals, that Pacers fitted with basically the same engine and gearbox were such a disaster.

Heritage DMUs were a bit different, they mostly had manual gearchange (I've driven one, it's quite a challenge), as did most buses of the era. One of the main issues with the Pacers was that the automatic gearchange didn't work very well.

 

[tomuk]

Heritage DMUs were a bit different, they mostly had manual gearchange (I've driven one, it's quite a challenge), as did most buses of the era. One of the main issues with the Pacers was that the automatic gearchange didn't work very well.

Routemasters and later Nationals and other Pneumocyclic fitted buses had a fully automatic option using the 'same' gearbox. Why a disaster on the Pacers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Routemasters and later Nationals and other Pneumocyclic fitted buses had a fully automatic option using the 'same' gearbox. Why a disaster on the Pacers?

Because rail is a much harsher working environment than bus, most notably because you've got things like multiple vehicles "fighting" with each other if they don't change at quite the same second.

 

[tomuk]

Because rail is a much harsher working environment than bus, most notably because you've got things like multiple vehicles "fighting" with each other if they don't change at quite the same second.

All the heritage DMUs coped ok, the gearboxes on each car were 'automatically' applying the change requested by the driver or you could say 'human computer'.

 

[AM9]

Certainly an Aventra with a 195/331 like interior would be about the best modern regional EMU imaginable. I'm looking forward to the LNR 2+2 sets. The 3+2 junk rather less so. It's a shame Bombardier don't offer a DMU based on that body, though I believe they now do offer a bi-mode, which Northern should consider for the WCML, the Southports, the Chesters (via WCML) and the Buxtons, in three car formations with gangways.

Providing the bi-mode offered by Bombardier is convertible to fully electric then it is no bad thing that they have moved on from pure DMUs. It would be a severely retrograde step to commit the railway to operating diesels under wires for the next 40 years, (2065 or worse).

 

[tomuk]

Providing the bi-mode offered by Bombardier is convertible to fully electric then it is no bad thing that they have moved on from pure DMUs. It would be a severely retrograde step to commit the railway to operating diesels under wires for the next 40 years, (2065 or worse).

They were similar in concept to 80x that being you could take the diesel electric generator set of and be left with an Aventra EMU. The flexibility is more expensive than the 'bog standard' Civity DMUs so no order.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think the main problem is that Northern ordered them as Pacer replacements but sold them as regional express trains; 2 things that could work together, but being cheap, didn't.

 

[AM9]

They were similar in concept to 80x that being you could take the diesel electric generator set of and be left with an Aventra EMU. The flexibility is more expensive than the 'bog standard' Civity DMUs so no order.

The additional cost is only at aquisition, the lack of flexibility of a pure DMU will likely result in a higher through life cost both in the lost ability to run on renewable energy under wires and increasing restrictions on diesel operation later in their intended operating life, especially into city centre stations.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have exactly the same opinion of them. They are not perfect but decent enough and a big improvement on 150s and pacers. I still prefer a 158. Completely agree that 2 car units are totally inadequate especially on routes between major cities like Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham. I fully understand the problems of capacity at Platform 17 at Leeds but wasn’t this service originally supposed to be diverted via Wakefield Wesgate and Moorthorpe and then not have to use platform 17.

The original plan for the Nottinghams was indeed for them to switch to running via Wakefield Westgate and Moorthorpe. They were also supposed to be extended to/from Bradford Interchange which would be another reason to move them from P17.

Unfortunately that's another one for the list of Arriva promises that won't be fulfilled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

I think the main problem is that Northern ordered them as Pacer replacements but sold them as regional express trains; 2 things that could work together, but being cheap, didn't.

They were never planned as direct Pacer replacements though, an internal cascade was always part of the plan. There's an argument that they're more suited to all-shacks services, but as you allude to there is a bit of a mismatch with the "regional express" interior configuration. I'd say that's a bigger problem with the 331s, particularly the Yorkshire ones where a "metro" style interior would be more appropriate.

 

[Mikey C]

141s, presumably? 142 and later didn't have mechanical gearboxes for very long, they had a habit of falling to bits and were replaced with Sprinter style hydraulic transmission. More like a heritage DMU or a bus.

The mechanical transmission can indeed be a bit jerky though it's not bad enough to be annoying, it just adds to the general cheap feel. The upside of it is the excellent performance due to the lack of transmission losses, unlike Sprinters and 170s which spend a lot of the time stirring and heating up transmission oil.

I assume the gearbox is more similar to that on the 172s which also have mechanical gearboxes?

 

[tomuk]

I assume the gearbox is more similar to that on the 172s which also have mechanical gearboxes?

Yes. I can't remember the exact version but they are very similar boxes from ZF. The EcoMat\EcoLife family

 

[yorksrob]

I think a reasonable sum-up is that they're a more-than-competent replacement for Classes 142 to 156 inclusive, but given that they were ordered for "premium" express services one might more have expected something to the quality of the Class 170 or 185.

As Northern Connect got dropped, and new Northern is rapidly realising they're better at capacity and stopping services (due to acceleration) than replacing 158s*, they are, bar the WCML services, mostly just replacing classes 142-156 and so are more than adequate, give or take my view on the lazy window alignment.

* Some of which have been refurbished to be basically the same inside bar having end doors, of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2022 ==



Faults as I see it:
1. Lousy ride
2. Poor window alignment in centre section
3. Only one toilet

1 and 2 are minor, though, and most of Northern's other stock only has one toilet.

I do still see them as a poor man's 170, but they do gain over 170s in some ways, e.g. acceleration and very large overhead racks.

On my line (the Hallam) they've replaced the 158's on the fasts which in place have replaced some of the stoppers.

I think this is wise because a 2 carriage doesn't 195 doesn't have the capacity of a 158 and would struggle with loadings on the stopper

 

[Killingworth]

On my line (the Hallam) they've replaced the 158's on the fasts which in place have replaced some of the stoppers.

I think this is wise because a 2 carriage doesn't 195 doesn't have the capacity of a 158 and would struggle with loadings on the stopper

Certainly fewer seats than 158s but 195s cram in a lot of standees and when they do the centre doors help with loading and unloading. If only passengers could spread themselves down the train.

Thats an issue with all stock but 158s in multiple are much beter. Multiple 195s can run with standees in one half and the other almost empty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On my line (the Hallam) they've replaced the 158's on the fasts which in place have replaced some of the stoppers.

I think this is wise because a 2 carriage doesn't 195 doesn't have the capacity of a 158 and would struggle with loadings on the stopper

195s have fewer seats, but the doors at thirds layout and large standbacks mean they can cope with more passengers overall and don't cause as much delay when overcrowded (from my 1990s experience of the 0749 Liverpool-Norwich which used to take well over 5 minutes to unload at Manchester Oxford Road).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

Thats an issue with all stock but 158s in multiple are much beter. Multiple 195s can run with standees in one half and the other almost empty.

Yes, not specifying gangways (or 3s and 4s to minimise multiple working) was nuts.

 

[ic31420]

I’m surprised more people haven’t mentioned the “gear change”. It really caught me by surprise and brought back memories of Pacers!

It's because it's really not noticeable. I was expecting it to be quite intrusive or noticeable. But it's not.
It's just unremarkable.
The thing that seemed odd to me was the overrun.

Because rail is a much harsher working environment than bus, most notably because you've got things like multiple vehicles "fighting" with each other if they don't change at quite the same second.

I always wondered why they didn't centrally control the gear changes.

Biggest issue with the 195s is there isn't enough of them.

 

[Bikeman78]

Because rail is a much harsher working environment than bus, most notably because you've got things like multiple vehicles "fighting" with each other if they don't change at quite the same second.

It was noticeable on the Pacers that one vehicle often made the transition to direct drive before the other. I expect the Sprinters do it too but it's harder to hear the other vehicle on them. If you want to see units fighting with each other, try a multi unit formation of the Belgian 1960/1970s two car EMUs.

What are the 195s like for gear changes? Does every vehicle change at exactly the same time?

 

[Argyle 1980]

I can’t believe northern rail, ever evaluated these properly before ordering a large fleet...the caf designs are really bad. The list of flaws is endless Ride quality is appalling, it’s difficult to find a seat that aligns with windows, seats are typical of modern designs rock hard and too upright. Door operating buttons are confusing, screen messages and announcements are typically of northern rail....irritating. It’s as though they don’t want passengers to have a pleasant relaxing journey. Un face lifted 158s are far superior

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2021 ==


Ps it’s not just CAF, could make similar criticisms of hitachi designs.....what an oversight to have pantographs on end vehicles

Not often I utilise Northern local services but found the 195s I used between Manchester-Bradford and Preston-Accrington to be fine. Definitely more pleasant a journey than the awful 150/1s and the refurbished 158s.
Was very impressed with the electric version 331 when going to Horwich Parkway. Seemed like it was at near full speed yet was very quiet and smooth.

 

[ic31420]

Not often I utilise Northern local services but found the 195s I used between Manchester-Bradford and Preston-Accrington to be fine. Definitely more pleasant a journey than the awful 150/1s and the refurbished 158s.
Was very impressed with the electric version 331 when going to Horwich Parkway. Seemed like it was at near full speed yet was very quiet and smooth.

And just think, 5years ago when a 150 turned up we used to say.... Ahhhhh luxury!

But then again a GWR 150 is a very different beast from a Newton Heath Northern Jobbie.

 

[LOL The Irony]

But then again a GWR 150 is a very different beast from a Newton Heath Northern Jobbie.

I know of at least one ex-Newton Heath 150 with GWR

 

[SuspectUsual]

I was on a 195 Hebden to York last Friday, and the side to side lurching was terrible. No idea if it was the unit or the track but far worse than any 195 I’ve been on previously

Oh, and the PIS is laughably poor, but that’s a generic Northern thing not 195 specific

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on a 195 Hebden to York last Friday, and the side to side lurching was terrible. No idea if it was the unit or the track but far worse than any 195 I’ve been on previously

Oh, and the PIS is laughably poor, but that’s a generic Northern thing not 195 specific

The 195 PIS is done a bit on the cheap but it's loads, loads better than the execrable "base model" TrainFX with its flickery LED displays and crackly audio.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The 195 PIS is done a bit on the cheap but it's loads, loads better than the execrable "base model" TrainFX with its flickery LED displays and crackly audio.

The issue is more the content than the delivery. The worst is the “connections” page, which simply lists all upcoming departures from the next station, and on the Calder valley that means the majority are either going back where we’ve just come from or going to the same destinations as the current train, ie of zero value

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is more the content than the delivery. The worst is the “connections” page, which simply lists all upcoming departures from the next station, and on the Calder valley that means the majority are either going back where we’ve just come from or going to the same destinations as the current train, ie of zero value

I think showing a more useful connections list is probably a big "curation" job on something as complex as Northern, so just showing a departure display probably makes most sense.