Southern at Guildford - No longer operating?

[swt_passenger]

Didn't this used to be a 4CEP pre-2005?

I suppose it’s possible, but I don’t have any CWNs from the earliest 2000s. I did find that by the time the May 2004 SX CWNs came out the Brightons were all showing as either 170 or 450, so perhaps they’d already amended the CWNs to reflect the final Desiro numbers?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==

When XC operated services to Portsmouth, what was the route used? Has XC lost the route knowledge into Portsmouth already?

Via Guildford and Havant. But they haven’t run at all since 2003. XC Portsmouth services are effectively history...

 

[infobleep]

Perhaps if they kept them up it would technically class as false advertising seeing as they don't serve Guildford anymore?

Well last time I looked there was still a poster at Clapham Junction stating the following:

Weekend Service Changes

We're sorry but due to Covid disruption of our new driver training programme, from Saturday 9 October, SWR will no longer be running Saturday services between Bristol and Salisbury, and the stopping service from Salisbury to London Waterloo will terminate at Basingstoke.

It reads like services will be coming back once the disruption of the training program is over. I thought services to Bristol were never coming back.

 

[WizCastro197]

Well last time I looked there was still a poster at Clapham Junction stating the following:


It reads like services will be coming back once the corruption of the training program is over. I thought services to Bristol were never coming back.

Yes to be fair most things ended by the pandemic in this case are written with the intention to come back and restart after as you mentioned how it is worded. I don't believe the Bristol services are probably coming back. It was probably only really useful between Salisbury and Bristol Rather than Waterloo to Bristol via Basingstoke and Salisbury

One would probably start their journey from Paddington albeit the SWR service was presumably a lot cheaper?

Corruption or Disruption

 

[miklcct]

Have weekday daytime Southern services between Brighton and Victoria become history also?

This was one of the prime Southern mainline routes and I really find it hard to accept that Southern services no longer operate on the Brighton main line regularly, or that there are no longer direct trains between Clapham Junction and Brighton on weekday daytime permanently. In particular, other trains still announce that "change for services to ..., Brighton" when approaching Clapham Junction, signs at platform 13 are still stating Brighton, etc.

 

[infobleep]

Yes to be fair most things ended by the pandemic in this case are written with the intention to come back and restart after as you mentioned how it is worded. I don't believe the Bristol services are probably coming back. It was probably only really useful between Salisbury and Bristol Rather than Waterloo to Bristol via Basingstoke and Salisbury

One would probably start their journey from Paddington albeit the SWR service was presumably a lot cheaper?

Corruption or Disruption

Now corrected.

Here is the poster itself. Photo taken on 12 April 2022

Weekend Service Changes

We're sorry but due to Covid disruption of our new driver training programme, from Saturday 9 October, SWR will no longer be running Saturday services between Bristol and Salisbury, and the stopping service from Salisbury to London Waterloo will terminate at Basingstoke.

 

[WizCastro197]

Now corrected.

Here is the poster itself. Photo taken on 12 April 2022

View attachment 119819

On Platform 9? It Looks very familiar

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes to be fair most things ended by the pandemic in this case are written with the intention to come back and restart after as you mentioned how it is worded. I don't believe the Bristol services are probably coming back. It was probably only really useful between Salisbury and Bristol Rather than Waterloo to Bristol via Basingstoke and Salisbury

SWR to Bristol was being lined up for removal by DfT even before the pandemic, it was in the original 2017 franchise agreement to be reviewed. The incoming franchisee had to report by 2018 on proposed alterations to a number of routes including Salisbury to Bristol. With hindsight the same section of the franchise agreement was also asking for the twice a day GWR Brighton service to be reviewed, and as we now know it was also subsequently removed. SWR were tasked to co-operate with GWR and SN on the review.

As we’ve discussed in previous threads, infrequent services like the original subject of this thread that operate outside a TOCs normal area seem to be being systematically culled by DfT.

 

[urpert]

That is right.

I don't know if things have changed recently but the last time I checked Guildford was still shown on the XC route map.

I don't remember it stating it was only used during diversions though. It may have stated it was a limited service though, I can't remember.

It was shown on the map on a 170 I was on yesterday.

 

[DerekC]

Well, that takes away one of the excuses used on the 18:15 Waterloo - Portsmouth via the Guildford New Line. "We are sorry for the delay but we are following a late-running Southern service". (Usually when the train was late out of Waterloo and had missed its slot at Hampton Court Junction - although sometimes it got rerouted via Woking on those occasions).

 

[boiledbeans2]

Well, that takes away one of the excuses used on the 18:15 Waterloo - Portsmouth via the Guildford New Line. "We are sorry for the delay but we are following a late-running Southern service". (Usually when the train was late out of Waterloo and had missed its slot at Hampton Court Junction - although sometimes it got rerouted via Woking on those occasions).

Was that a pre-programmed automated announcement?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well, that takes away one of the excuses used on the 18:15 Waterloo - Portsmouth via the Guildford New Line. "We are sorry for the delay but we are following a late-running Southern service". (Usually when the train was late out of Waterloo and had missed its slot at Hampton Court Junction - although sometimes it got rerouted via Woking on those occasions).

The 18.15 Waterloo to Portsmouth via the new line becomes an 18.15 Waterloo to Fareham via Woking from the December 2022 change anyway.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 18.15 Waterloo to Portsmouth via the new line becomes an 18.15 Waterloo to Fareham via Woking from the December 2022 change anyway.

However 2P59 is now 1G59 to balance route retention

 

[DerekC]

Was that a pre-programmed automated announcement?

Don't think the railway is quite up to that degree of automation yet!!

 

[Minstral25]

Have weekday daytime Southern services between Brighton and Victoria become history also?

This was one of the prime Southern mainline routes and I really find it hard to accept that Southern services no longer operate on the Brighton main line regularly, or that there are no longer direct trains between Clapham Junction and Brighton on weekday daytime permanently. In particular, other trains still announce that "change for services to ..., Brighton" when approaching Clapham Junction, signs at platform 13 are still stating Brighton, etc.

They do, the trains just happen to be red instead of green with Gatwick Express written on the side. All part of GTR though.

Agree they should stop at Clapham Junction

 

[WizCastro197]

They do, the trains just happen to be red instead of green with Gatwick Express written on the side. All part of GTR though.

Agree they should stop at Clapham Junction

I think if one wanted to remain on Southern for the longest time possible to get to Brighton, They should board a Littlehampton Service and Change at Preston Park.

It is a shame that they don't operate as It can be irritating to get to Brighton without them except on Sundays. I believe they weekday services will return once the GTW upgrades have been completed. It is a shame that the Brighton services were sacrificed over others They should've at least kept one Southern train per hour to Victoria and cut another route through GTW to one train per hour

If The Gatwick Express stops at Clapham Junction in the peak when it stops at all other station such as Haywards Heath etc, then the extra fare shouldn't be applied (I am not sure what the difference is or whether Gatwick Express charges the regular rate for trains that stop after Gatwick) as the only stop you would be missing out on would be East Croydon

 

[Minstral25]

I think if one wanted to remain on Southern for the longest time possible to get to Brighton, They should board a Littlehampton Service and Change at Preston Park.

It is a shame that they don't operate as It can be irritating to get to Brighton without them except on Sundays.

If The Gatwick Express stops at Clapham Junction in the peak when it stops at all other station such as Haywards Heath etc, then the extra fare shouldn't be applied (I am not sure what the difference is or whether Gatwick Express charges the regular rate for trains that stop after Gatwick) as the only stop you would be missing out on would be East Croydon

I'm not sure what your issue is with extra Fares - The higher Gatwick Express fares only apply between London Victoria and Gatwick assuming you get off at the end of your journey at Gatwick or if you have changed from an alternate service at Gatwick (i.e. from Horsham for example)

To Brighton fares are the same using GatEx or Thameslink unless you buy a discounted Thameslink only fare. The Southern prices to Brighton (i.e. non-Thameslink) apply on all services from Brighton to London, also if you change at Gatwick for Redhill or similar. So to and from Brighton it doesn't matter what colour train it is.

 

[WizCastro197]

I'm not sure what your issue is with extra Fares - The higher Gatwick Express fares only apply between London Victoria and Gatwick assuming you get off at the end of your journey at Gatwick or if you have changed from an alternate service at Gatwick (i.e. from Horsham for example)

To Brighton fares are the same using GatEx or Thameslink unless you buy a discounted Thameslink only fare. The Southern prices to Brighton (i.e. non-Thameslink) apply on all services from Brighton to London, also if you change at Gatwick for Redhill or similar. So to and from Brighton it doesn't matter what colour train it is.

Oh Okay Thanks. I haven't had the chance to properly understand the fare situation with Gatwick Express.

 

[nw1]

The 18.15 Waterloo to Portsmouth via the new line becomes an 18.15 Waterloo to Fareham via Woking from the December 2022 change anyway.

This is thus perhaps the end of a (very) long running semi-fast to Portsmouth itself in this slot, as its predecessor was the 1820 Waterloo-Portsmouth from the 80s, retimed to 1825 in 1989 and 1815 in (I think) 1991. That was routed via Woking for much of the time though.

 

[DanNCL]

The XC Guildford service was only two trains a day, northbound in the early morning and southbound in mid or late evening. The northern extremity was York or Newcastle in different timetables.

AFAIK the passenger service south of Reading was discontinued with Covid. I believe the train still runs via Guildford and Havant to Eastleigh (and reverse in the morning) as ECS, for route knowledge retention. The cancellation won't have much effect - I used the trains in both directions occasionally, being quicker than changing to/from the North Downs GWR trains at Reading, and mostly had a coach pretty much to myself on a four car Voyager.

I toyed with the idea of a day out using both trains through their entire route, but I never managed to get a journey planner to give me an advance fare, as going via London was much quicker.

As far as I understand the XC service to Guildford is expected to be reinstated when the delayed ECML timetable recast happens. The southbound trip is likely to be retimed to leave Newcastle at 1336, to provide a teatime arrival at Guildford.

 

[nw1]

Didn't this used to be a 4CEP pre-2005?

Not sure about this specific service but in the late 90s, the Basingstoke-Brightons (which ran roughly 2 hours in every 3, the other hour being the 159 from Reading to Brighton, and some hours the path was taken by the Wales and West Brighton to Cardiff) were mostly VEPs with the odd CIG or CEP. The diagramming was inconsistent; some turned round at Basingstoke, others interworked with Waterloo-Basingstoke stoppers. I think there was an 08xx or 09xx 12VEP out of Waterloo which divided at Basingstoke and may have been advertised as a through service from Waterloo to Brighton.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as I understand the XC service to Guildford is expected to be reinstated when the delayed ECML timetable recast happens. The southbound trip is likely to be retimed to leave Newcastle at 1336, to provide a teatime arrival at Guildford.

I think you have to consider it as restoration of the a normal hourly Newcastle to Reading axis of the XC map, with the Guildford extension an optional possibility. That big XC consultation a few years ago intended for the 2018 timetable was to remove it permanently, although it was never acted upon at that time.

 

[DanNCL]

I think you have to consider it as restoration of the a normal hourly Newcastle to Reading axis of the XC map, with the Guildford extension an optional possibility. That big XC consultation a few years ago intended for the 2018 timetable was to remove it permanently, although it was never acted upon at that time.

A post covid document showed the daily Guildford extension being retained.

Any further discussion on XC to Guildford is off topic for this thread.

 

[PGAT]

Any further discussion on XC to Guildford is off topic for this thread.

Yeah isn’t this meant to be about Southern?

 

[swt_passenger]

A post covid document showed the daily Guildford extension being retained.

Any further discussion on XC to Guildford is off topic for this thread.

Well I’ve no idea why it diverged into other areas so much really. Probably because the original question had an early answer.

 

[WizCastro197]

If one from Guildford wanted Victoria or London Bridge would a good change point be Epsom?

Or fast to CLJ and change there?

 

[PGAT]

If one from Guildford wanted Victoria or London Bridge would a good change point be Epsom?

Or fast to CLJ and change there?

I think the point of this service is was to provide the people of Wallington and Sutton a direct service without having to change at Epsom and wait for a 1tph train

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the point of this service is was to provide the people of Wallington and Sutton a direct service without having to change at Epsom and wait for a 1tph train

A direct service to where? Numbers of trains, always insignificant anyway, were biased towards the up direction in the morning and down in the evening. There was only one train in the contra flow direction.

 

[Kite159]

.

I think the point of this service is was to provide the people of Wallington and Sutton a direct service without having to change at Epsom and wait for a 1tph train

And how much demand was there from someone from Sutton wanting a peak time service towards Guildford?

 

[WizCastro197]

I think the point of this service is was to provide the people of Wallington and Sutton a direct service without having to change at Epsom and wait for a 1tph train

There are 2tph to London Bridge from Epsom not 1tph. I agree with a later statement how many actually want a service in peak to Guildford from Sutton?
And you've got the 2tph to Victoria via Hackbridge and Sutton as well-

Edit: Sorry I didn't realise you were talking in a southbound direction

The 18:03 only takes one 50 minutes to get to Guildford from Sutton with a change time at Epsom of a mere 5 minutes

 

[DelW]

Well I’ve no idea why it diverged into other areas so much really. Probably because the original question had an early answer.

Plus there are parallels in that both Southern's and XC's services to Guildford were oddities at the beginning and end of the day, and are either currently or permanently withdrawn. But XC is indeed off-topic from the original subject.