Southern at Guildford - No longer operating?

[tasky]

In a similar way, I would be surprised if anyone between Guildford and Effingham Jct travelling to Waterloo would choose to use the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom service all the way since the services via Cobham are much faster.

As a former user of these services from one of these stations you are sort of right, people do generally aim to take the Cobham service to Waterloo as it is faster.

However, the combined service in the direction of Waterloo is 4tph and this is nearly turn-up-and-go, so people do tend to turn up at the station without having a specific train in mind.

If you are going to Waterloo and the first train is an Epsom train it usually makes sense to get on it as waiting 10-15 minutes for a Cobham train isn't generally worth it (there may be a couple of minutes advantage for doing so sometimes iirc). This is especially true in winter as sitting on the train is usually preferable to waiting on the platform if it is cold.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But why would anyone want to go to Croydon nothing is really there

Croydon used to be a major employment centre. Perhaps still is?

 

[WizCastro197]

My extension has nothing to do with end to end usage, it is purely for the different connections provided along the route.

In a similar way, I would be surprised if anyone between Guildford and Effingham Jct travelling to Waterloo would choose to use the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom service all the way since the services via Cobham are much faster.

The connections provided by that service that are not provided by any other service are: Guildford / London Rd / Clandon / Horsley / Effingham Jct / Bookham to Ewell West / Stoneleigh / Worcester Park / Motspur Park / Raynes Park (and Bookham to every station on the line)

New connections between Guildford and Sutton/Croydon would likely be much more used than those links, and every one of those lost links is easily provided with a cross platform change at Epsom.

Fair point about Croydon, but I would take a good guess at the link being used more for travelling to/from Guildford, for reasons stated in my last post.

The issue with changing at Clapham Jct is that very few fast trains from Guildford actually stop at Clapham Jct, especially in the peaks.

Not sure what connections to Dorking has to do with it, I just said that a more frequent service from Dorking to Waterloo would be very useful.

Ahh Okay it’s thanks!
Good point about Clapham Junction. I completely forgot that not all trains stop there.
B

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==

Croydon used to be a major employment centre. Perhaps still is?

I think a division of the home office is there or was?
Not sure anymore!

 

[PGAT]

I believe the 2tph London Bridge to Epsom services should be extended to Guildford all day with the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services diverted to Dorking instead.

Stations Guildford to Effingham Jct are served by the (much faster) via Cobham services to Waterloo/Clapham Jct/Wimbledon, and I would imagine stations Guildford to Bookham to stations Ewell West to Motspur Park is not a significant flow and would still have easy cross platform interchange at Epsom.

Dorking is an area with very little inwards travel and has lots of commuters, so having more frequent services to London is important.

In comparison, Guildford is a very large, important town with lots of leisure activites, a large university and connections to services towards Portsmouth, so connectivity to more areas such as Sutton and Croydon is more useful and important.

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

I think an all day extension to Dorking instead of Guildford would be more viable. From Southerns perspective, going to Dorking instead of Epsom uses only one extra set of units, and increases the Mole Valley lines capacity. This would take pressure off of SWR and no changes on their end would be necessary. However none of this would be too necessary as off peak the LBG-EPS has very little passengers on after Sutton. Back in 2019 when the Guildford trains still ran, you could very easily find an empty carriage past Ashtead or Leatherhead

 

[norbitonflyer]

Waterloo is relatively close to London Bridge 2 stops on the tube and faster to to go to Waterloo.

Even better, it's one stop on South Eastern and, unlike the Tube, is included in the fare (as "London Terminals")

 

[miklcct]

I believe that the future trend is that these off-pattern trains will be axed one by one unless there are compelling reasons to keep them operating (such as keeping route knowledge for engineering diversion, for example, SWR to Reading or Overground to Battersea Park).

For example, Waterloo to Brighton, Bristol to Brighton, etc. Now it's Victoria to Guildford.

The XC return to Guildford in passenger service is doubtful in my opinion. I think it was on borrowed time anyway since their last franchise consultation. But on the other hand the empty stock still runs though Guildford twice a day, so there’s really not much preventing it running again.

Guildford is a useful engineering diversion for XC. When Basingstoke is closed, trains between Southampton and Reading divert via Portsmouth Direct and North Downs. Therefore XC still keeps the route knowledge of that route, similar to the reason that some SWR diesel services still run to Reading.

 

[infobleep]

As a former user of these services from one of these stations you are sort of right, people do generally aim to take the Cobham service to Waterloo as it is faster.

However, the combined service in the direction of Waterloo is 4tph and this is nearly turn-up-and-go, so people do tend to turn up at the station without having a specific train in mind.

If you are going to Waterloo and the first train is an Epsom train it usually makes sense to get on it as waiting 10-15 minutes for a Cobham train isn't generally worth it (there may be a couple of minutes advantage for doing so sometimes iirc). This is especially true in winter as sitting on the train is usually preferable to waiting on the platform if it is cold.

There is now only 1 train an hour from Guildford to Waterloo via Epsom. It usually departs x45 or in the peaks x42.

Ahh Okay it’s thanks!
Good point about Clapham Junction. I completely forgot that not all trains stop there.
B

Part of the problem for me is that there is only 1 train an hour to Clapham Junction Monday to Saturday, save the Monday to Friday evening peak when for some hours it is 2.

The fast train to Clapham Junction departs x35.

I don't go to Sutton much how but I use to go there semi-regularly.

Of course, one must not forget fewer people are travelling now and of those travelling, they may not be pay as much as the fares lost.

As for the XC direct services, I use to occasionally get them. At one point in time Great Western Railway didn't offer advanced singles from Guildford to Oxford so the XC service was the only way to get an advanced single. They of course only offered them when travelling wholly on their services

 

[miklcct]

Part of the problem for me is that there is only 1 train an hour to Clapham Junction Monday to Saturday, save the Monday to Friday evening peak when for some hours it is 2.

I honestly don't care much about how many direct trains per hour one can get to Clapham Junction.

If the train doesn't stop at Clapham Junction, just get off at Woking and get another train which stops at Clapham Junction (which offers a turn-up-and-go frequency there). The real problem is in the morning peak when no fast trains stop at Clapham Junction at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Guildford is a useful engineering diversion for XC. When Basingstoke is closed, trains between Southampton and Reading divert via Portsmouth Direct and North Downs. Therefore XC still keeps the route knowledge of that route, similar to the reason that some SWR diesel services still run to Reading.

That’s right, and you’ve reminded us of a diversionary route that has been in use for many years, if not decades, that has been discussed in these forums numerous times over the last 12 years or so. I think it would become rather repetitive explaining its purpose in detail every time it gets mentioned, but I did actually mention it in post #22 as well…

However the DMUs to Reading in the late evening and much of Sunday is comparatively recent, that only started a few years ago, in 2017 I think, when Waterloo was being remodelled.

 

[miklcct]

That’s right, and you’ve reminded us of a diversionary route that has been in use for many years, if not decades, that has been discussed in these forums numerous times over the last 12 years or so. I think it would become rather repetitive explaining its purpose in detail every time it gets mentioned.

However the DMUs to Reading in the late evening and much of Sunday is comparatively recent, that only started a few years ago, in 2017 I think, when Waterloo was being remodelled.

When XC operated services to Portsmouth, what was the route used? Has XC lost the route knowledge into Portsmouth already?

 

[WizCastro197]

There is now only 1 train an hour from Guildford to Waterloo via Epsom. It usually departs x45 or in the peaks x42.

Part of the problem for me is that there is only 1 train an hour to Clapham Junction Monday to Saturday, save the Monday to Friday evening peak when for some hours it is 2.

The fast train to Clapham Junction departs x35.

I don't go to Sutton much how but I use to go there semi-regularly.

Of course, one must not forget fewer people are travelling now and of those travelling, they may not be pay as much as the fares lost.

As for the XC direct services, I use to occasionally get them. At one point in time Great Western Railway didn't offer advanced singles from Guildford to Oxford so the XC service was the only way to get an advanced single. They of course only offered them when travelling wholly on their services

Deleted: I realised you were talking about Guildford

 

[jackot]

Guildford is a useful engineering diversion for XC. When Basingstoke is closed, trains between Southampton and Reading divert via Portsmouth Direct and North Downs. Therefore XC still keeps the route knowledge of that route, similar to the reason that some SWR diesel services still run to Reading.

I believe it's happening next on a Sunday sometime in October. However, I don't see why, from their perspective, they would bring back regular - albeit infrequent - services to Guildford, despite how useful it would be for Guildford users.

Although I never experienced it myself, I heard that the previous Southern services to Guildford were woefully unreliable, with frequent cancellations. I can't honestly see it returning for now, especially with them being very short of stock to even operate their existing routes, thanks to the departure of the 455s. Coupled with the likely departure of the 313s from the fleet soon, I think the last thing they will do is to reinstate another route which has been discontinued for some time now.

 

[Bald Rick]

For example, Waterloo to Brighton

Que?

 

[PGAT]

Que?

I think they meant XC service from Brighton to Newcastle?

 

[swt_passenger]

Que?

Well, before 2007 a train left Waterloo for Basingstoke at stupid o’clock in the morning, and it continued onto the Basingstoke - Brighton circuit, but there was no return service and it would never have been thought of as part of the normal service pattern.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, before 2007 a train left Waterloo for Basingstoke at stupid o’clock in the morning, and it continued onto the Basingstoke - Brighton circuit, but there was no return service and it would never have been thought of as part of the normal service pattern.

every day is a school day. But I bet the poster I queried didn’t know that either!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Well, before 2007 a train left Waterloo for Basingstoke at stupid o’clock in the morning, and it continued onto the Basingstoke - Brighton circuit, but there was no return service and it would never have been thought of as part of the normal service pattern.

Didn't this used to be a 4CEP pre-2005?

 

[WizCastro197]

I think they meant XC service from Brighton to Newcastle?

Wasn’t it VXC at that time? Shame they ditched it I think it used to go to ECR did it not?
Where would it exit the BML?

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn’t it VXC at that time? Shame they ditched it I think it used to go to ECR did it not?
Where would it exit the BML?

XC Brightons normally ran via Redhill and Guildford, to Reading, or via Clapham Junction and Acton, but there were alternative routeing possible in the south London area. But I don’t think they ever went to or from Newcastle. I’m not really sure they’re of any relevance to this thread though, given how long ago they ceased completely…

 

[PGAT]

Wasn’t it VXC at that time? Shame they ditched it I think it used to go to ECR did it not?
Where would it exit the BML?

I think it went through East Croydon and onto the WCML via Kensington Olympia

 

[Jimini]

Wasn’t it VXC at that time? Shame they ditched it I think it used to go to ECR did it not?
Where would it exit the BML?

Assuming BML = Brighton main line, if memory serves me correctly, they left Clapham Juncton heading north to Latchmere Junction, then went via Kensington Olympia through to Acton Wells junction, then headed down the GWML from there.

 

[infobleep]

Assuming BML = Brighton main line, if memory serves me correctly, they left Clapham Juncton heading north to Latchmere Junction, then went via Kensington Olympia through to Acton Wells junction, then headed down the GWML from there.

That is right.

I don't know if things have changed recently but the last time I checked Guildford was still shown on the XC route map.

I don't remember it stating it was only used during diversions though. It may have stated it was a limited service though, I can't remember.

 

[Bald Rick]

Assuming BML = Brighton main line, if memory serves me correctly, they left Clapham Juncton heading north to Latchmere Junction, then went via Kensington Olympia through to Acton Wells junction, then headed down the GWML from there.

They did, after the direct connection from the WLL to GWML at North Pole was severed fir the Eurostar depot.

 

[Jimini]

I remember catching those trains from East Croydon to Reading, back in the day. Completely understand why they are no more, but that was a joyous and simple trip!

 

[boiledbeans2]

There is now only 1 train an hour from Guildford to Waterloo via Epsom. It usually departs x45 or in the peaks x42.

As there is only 1tph to Guildford via Epsom today, the New Guildford Line's train intervals are unevenly distributed.

Pre-covid, the timetable was beautifully done, a train every 15mins in the section Guildford - Effingham, with 2tph via Surbiton and 2tph via Epsom.

The 2tph Guildford via Epsom would weave between the 2tph Dorking via Epsom trains, providing a train also every 15mins in the section Leatherhead - Worcester Park.

(This above is from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Now, post-covid, what happens is that both the 2tph Guildford via Epsom paths are no longer in use, and 1tph of the 2tph Dorking trains via Epsom trains has been diverted to Guildford.

If you're at Effingham Junction heading to Guildford, the train intervals every hour would be 30mins-5mins-25mins, i.e. the Guildford via Epsom train is only 5 mins behind the Guildford via Surbiton train.

So it's no longer an even distribution on the New Guildford Line, but it's still an even distribution of 2tph in the section Leatherhead - Worcester Park. I guess you can't satisfy both unless there is a whole timetable rewrite.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know if things have changed recently but the last time I checked Guildford was still shown on the XC route map.

I don't remember it stating it was only used during diversions though. It may have stated it was a limited service though, I can't remember.

In my recollection Guildford is and was always shown normally on the timetable route map, and on the booklet covers, just like Bath (for the period it was served once a day). I’m fairly sure the only way you’d know there was just a very limited service at either station was to check the individual tables. You’d probably think they would use dotted or ‘hollow’ lines.

The Brighton, East Croydon, Gatwick, Olympia part of the route map was just the same in the last years they were served up until 2008. There was no obvious indication on the maps that there was only a very limited service, usually at extremes of the day.

 

[jackot]

One thing I noticed at my visit to Guildford this week as that the Cross Country posters on Platform 1 have been removed. They were mostly about engineering works, but had stayed up until sometime last month from memory, and were quite regularly updated. The Southern ones have also gone now, but were up there until 2021.

 

[WizCastro197]

One thing I noticed at my visit to Guildford this week as that the Cross Country posters on Platform 1 have been removed. They were mostly about engineering works, but had stayed up until sometime last month from memory, and were quite regularly updated. The Southern ones have also gone now, but were up there until 2021.

Perhaps if they kept them up it would technically class as false advertising seeing as they don't serve Guildford anymore?

 

[jackot]

Perhaps if they kept them up it would technically class as false advertising seeing as they don't serve Guildford anymore?

Yes it might well confuse a few people, especially with a large route map showing all their other destinations that look like they could be direct from Guildford.

 

[DelW]

That is right.

I don't know if things have changed recently but the last time I checked Guildford was still shown on the XC route map.

I don't remember it stating it was only used during diversions though. It may have stated it was a limited service though, I can't remember.

The XC Guildford service was only two trains a day, northbound in the early morning and southbound in mid or late evening. The northern extremity was York or Newcastle in different timetables.

AFAIK the passenger service south of Reading was discontinued with Covid. I believe the train still runs via Guildford and Havant to Eastleigh (and reverse in the morning) as ECS, for route knowledge retention. The cancellation won't have much effect - I used the trains in both directions occasionally, being quicker than changing to/from the North Downs GWR trains at Reading, and mostly had a coach pretty much to myself on a four car Voyager.

I toyed with the idea of a day out using both trains through their entire route, but I never managed to get a journey planner to give me an advance fare, as going via London was much quicker.