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Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

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Baxenden Bank

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Dare I say it - go to a hardware shop and ask for fork 'andles/ four candles.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that - I will go out and get a life now. :D:D
I saw this coming. I have a WHOLE BOX of candles, bought when I first started living independently back in, oh not many TV channels days.

The question to all - do you have matches (or a lighter). Not many uses for a candle without a light.

OMG OMG, panic, OMG OMG, headless chicken mode OMG OMG. It's already happening. Two power cuts already this morning. Will somebody please shut those house alarms off!
 
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XAM2175

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Or the Barbican or the Brunswick - it's great to see Brutalist architecture in its classic form, but the steel/aluminium-framed single glazed windows are an energy pit, so the listed building rules need to be relaxed to allow for at least double secondary glazing so what's there is just cosmetic.
Something that came up recently on the Brownfield estate in Poplar - Carradale House was fitted with new double-glazed timber-framed windows that are replicas of the originals, but Balfron Tower had its original timber frames replaced with double-glazing in brown-anodized aluminium frames that are notably different in appearance.

I have to confess to liking the Balfron's new windows more than the originals, but sympathetic upgrades are definitely possible for the vast majority of installations.
 

brad465

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There aren't many ways to save energy. Beyond those already promoted (energy efficiency in its various methods).
The myth of smart meters that 'they can save you money' is based on the same premise - that people waste energy like crazy just because they can.

Some free energy saving tips to start you off:
  • Eat a raw egg instead of poaching it - saving 0.02kWh per go, a whopping 0.7p at my rates. Have an egg every morning? you'll save 4.9p per week.
  • Turn off your bedside radio and use your phone as an alarm - saving 0.018kWh per day, 0.5p per day or £1.92 per year.
  • Use the washing machine less - 2.5 times per eight days instead of 2.5 times per seven - saving £5.15 per year.
  • Do all your washing overnight at Economy Seven rates, on the same eight vice seven rota and save £23.50 per year.
As has been said, the majority of use is for water and space heating.
Maybe, but one area I think needs to see more saving is in public space consumption, such as turning off all street lights that are not essential, making those that are essential capable of motion sensor detection, turning off lights on the outside of shops and public buildings between set hours, and heating temperature limits in public buildings and business spaces. I mention these because there are parts of Europe doing this already, or planning to introduce measures like this, as part of the EU's aim to get consumption of gas down by 15%.
 

Howardh

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There aren't many ways to save energy. Beyond those already promoted (energy efficiency in its various methods).
The myth of smart meters that 'they can save you money' is based on the same premise - that people waste energy like crazy just because they can.

Some free energy saving tips to start you off:
  • Eat a raw egg instead of poaching it - saving 0.02kWh per go, a whopping 0.7p at my rates. Have an egg every morning? you'll save 4.9p per week.
  • Turn off your bedside radio and use your phone as an alarm - saving 0.018kWh per day, 0.5p per day or £1.92 per year.
  • Use the washing machine less - 2.5 times per eight days instead of 2.5 times per seven - saving £5.15 per year.
  • Do all your washing overnight at Economy Seven rates, on the same eight vice seven rota and save £23.50 per year.
As has been said, the majority of use is for water and space heating.
Last night I noticed that my two flurescent tubes in the kitchen were costing me 0.06p/hr, which is quite a lot, so one's been taken out and I'll see if I can get a sparky to remove both units and replace with efficient bulbs. Could save getting on for £150/yr if I can do that.
 

Cloud Strife

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Maybe, but one area I think needs to see more saving is in public space consumption, such as turning off all street lights that are not essential, making those that are essential capable of motion sensor detection, turning off lights on the outside of shops and public buildings between set hours, and heating temperature limits in public buildings and business spaces. I mention these because there are parts of Europe doing this already, or planning to introduce measures like this, as part of the EU's aim to get consumption of gas down by 15%.

Yes, very much so. There's a good example where I live, where in the village, they've installed six very powerful LED laterns to light up the basketball/volleyball courts and playground. While the cost of running them won't be that high, there's absolutely no reason for them to be running at 2am.

Even on the new expressways, every junction is light up like the Blackpool Illuminations in the middle of the night. It's completely not needed, especially given that on some routes, traffic is incredibly light at night. It makes sense on the main transit motorways, but very little sense elsewhere.

As for heating, it's already been made clear by local governments in PL that they will reduce temperatures to the legally required minimum of 18c this winter due to the lack of funding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are a lot of myths like it being better to leave the heating on all day, even if you're out, rather than use a timer.

At least in Poland, this is actually the case. It's a terrible idea in the depths of winter to turn off the heating, because you'll just end up with a damp house that you'll pay more to heat. Then again, we can also turn off the heating from May-October due to the climate.
 

Howardh

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Yes, very much so. There's a good example where I live, where in the village, they've installed six very powerful LED laterns to light up the basketball/volleyball courts and playground. While the cost of running them won't be that high, there's absolutely no reason for them to be running at 2am.

Even on the new expressways, every junction is light up like the Blackpool Illuminations in the middle of the night. It's completely not needed, especially given that on some routes, traffic is incredibly light at night. It makes sense on the main transit motorways, but very little sense elsewhere.

As for heating, it's already been made clear by local governments in PL that they will reduce temperatures to the legally required minimum of 18c this winter due to the lack of funding.
Why are advertising hoardings lit up? Complete waste of energy and doing CO2 emissions no favours at all. I also include a tourist attraction like Piccadilly Circus in that! Also, no reason at all why all weekend football games in winter start at 3pm, needing floodlights. 2.15 would be just fine, like before they used floodlights!

Maybe the cost of power will see all that cut down naturally.
 

Bletchleyite

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Last night I noticed that my two flurescent tubes in the kitchen were costing me 0.06p/hr, which is quite a lot, so one's been taken out and I'll see if I can get a sparky to remove both units and replace with efficient bulbs. Could save getting on for £150/yr if I can do that.

You could fit an LED replacement tube? The railway likes those. Though something like an LED spotlight fitting may give you more atmospheric light.
 

Howardh

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You could fit an LED replacement tube? The railway likes those. Though something like an LED spotlight fitting may give you more atmospheric light.
Thanks, didn't know they were a thing...although to be honest not sure if the ones I already have are LED. I'll look into it, but in any case having two lighting up a kitchen is so unnecessary, just it's quite large and the window doesn't let in much light.

Edit, just had a closer look, both strips are the same lentgh and type, but the more recent tube is a lot thinner and still gives off the same light. That is using a bit under 0.03p/hr but there's no indication whether it's LED or not.
 
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najaB

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Thanks, didn't know they were a thing...although to be honest not sure if the ones I already have are LED.
If you check the usage in Watts rather than pence/hr that would give you a good idea. A typical 4 foot fluorescent tube will be circa 36W, where a drop-in LED replacement will be less than half of that.
 

Lloyds siding

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The next generation of computers will use much less energy, for the same computing effort, than currently. This will make a useful dent in overall energy consumption for people, companies, countries. It will also make an old schoolmate of mine into a multi-millionaire (if he isn't one already)!
 

Mcr Warrior

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Last night I noticed that my two flurescent tubes in the kitchen were costing me 0.06p/hr, which is quite a lot...
Is that calculation correct? 0.06p/hr is less than 1.5p per 24 hour day or maybe just over a fiver for a whole year.
 

DelayRepay

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Maybe, but one area I think needs to see more saving is in public space consumption, such as turning off all street lights that are not essential, making those that are essential capable of motion sensor detection, turning off lights on the outside of shops and public buildings between set hours, and heating temperature limits in public buildings and business spaces. I mention these because there are parts of Europe doing this already, or planning to introduce measures like this, as part of the EU's aim to get consumption of gas down by 15%.

When I lived in Hertfordshire (quite a few years ago so I may have mis-remembered some of the finer details), the council started turning the streetlights off overnight. I think it was between 1am - 6am.

This prompted quite a backlash from people who said it was unsafe. Personally I never felt unsafe but that may be because I'm male and reasonably fit. I imagine some people did find it worrying. I also carried a small torch in my bag so I could see where I was going. I was more concerned about tripping or slipping than being attacked.

I agree about shops - it is surprising how many leave some lights on when they're closed. I guess an illuminated sign or window display is a form of advertising which is why they do it.
 

brad465

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When I lived in Hertfordshire (quite a few years ago so I may have mis-remembered some of the finer details), the council started turning the streetlights off overnight. I think it was between 1am - 6am.

This prompted quite a backlash from people who said it was unsafe. Personally I never felt unsafe but that may be because I'm male and reasonably fit. I imagine some people did find it worrying. I also carried a small torch in my bag so I could see where I was going. I was more concerned about tripping or slipping than being attacked.

I agree about shops - it is surprising how many leave some lights on when they're closed. I guess an illuminated sign or window display is a form of advertising which is why they do it.
This is where the motion sensor lighting part comes in, we now have railway platform lights that go very dim in the absence of movement, but the passing of a train and/or passengers moving by them turns up the brightness. Something like that for residential streets would work, if not already the case.
 

DelayRepay

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This is where the motion sensor lighting part comes in, we now have railway platform lights that go very dim in the absence of movement, but the passing of a train and/or passengers moving by them turns up the brightness. Something like that for residential streets would work, if not already the case.
Indeed - another (potentially cheaper) option is to turn off alternate streetlights. I find that, unless you're in the middle of nowhere, there's generally enough ambient light from buildings, security lights, traffic and even the moon to see where you're going.

I have a streetlight outside my bedroom window. Would be delighted if it was turned off overnight as I would not need such thick curtains :)
 

Howardh

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Is that calculation correct? 0.06p/hr is less than 1.5p per 24 hour day or maybe just over a fiver for a whole year.
Correction, 6p/hr! My bad! The display reads like this..£0.08 which means, right now, I'm running at 8pph, not 0.08pph!! Thanks for spotting that!
 

Ediswan

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A typical 4 foot fluorescent tube will be circa 36W, where a drop-in LED replacement will be less than half of that.
But will it give the same light output ? The last time I looked, the light output of a drop-in replacement LED tube was considerably less than the fluorescent it would be replacing.

Two examples, both the first hit from Google (5ft as that is what I have):

A basic 5ft 58W fluorescent: 5200 lumens https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LAFLT58DL.html
25W LED equivalent: 2625 lumens (25x105) https://www.goodlight.co.uk/product/5ft-25w-fluoro-style-t8-led-tube/

Less than half the power consumption, but only just over half the light output. Not a huge difference in luminous efficacy. The fluorescent is 90 lumens per watt, LED is 105. Nothing like the difference between incandescent and LED.

Now, there may be better LED repalcements out there, but check the specifications carefully before purchase. (The discussion could be extended to cover beam angle, lamp life, lumen maintenance.)
 

JamesT

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But will it give the same light output ? The last time I looked, the light output of a drop-in replacement LED tube was considerably less than the fluorescent it would be replacing.

Two examples, both the first hit from Google (5ft as that is what I have):

A basic 5ft 58W fluorescent: 5200 lumens https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LAFLT58DL.html
25W LED equivalent: 2625 lumens (25x105) https://www.goodlight.co.uk/product/5ft-25w-fluoro-style-t8-led-tube/

Less than half the power consumption, but only just over half the light output. Not a huge difference in luminous efficacy. The fluorescent is 90 lumens per watt, LED is 105. Nothing like the difference between incandescent and LED.

Now, there may be better LED repalcements out there, but check the specifications carefully before purchase. (The discussion could be extended to cover beam angle, lamp life, lumen maintenance.)
From your original site there was a link to a discontinued LED tube, but clicking through a bit more finds https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTT524HDL.html which is 4000 lumens. 167lm/W which is a fair bit better than the fluorescent.
 

najaB

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Less than half the power consumption, but only just over half the light output. Not a huge difference in luminous efficacy. The fluorescent is 90 lumens per watt, LED is 105. Nothing like the difference between incandescent and LED.
One big difference is that LED tubes generally focus the light downwards, so it's half the light output but it's spread across 180° rather than 360°. My parents replaced theirs a while back and I can't really say that I noticed much difference.
 

Ediswan

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Though look at the colour temperature too - if yours is warm white that one will be stark!
I forgot to mention to check the colour temperature. There do appear to be 3500K and 4000K versions of what @JamesT found.

Noting the latest post from @najaB, it also has a 330° beam angle. How much difference you see is affected by how old the original tube was. Output drops over time.
 

Domh245

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I agree about shops - it is surprising how many leave some lights on when they're closed. I guess an illuminated sign or window display is a form of advertising which is why they do it.

Most stores leave some of their lights on for security purposes, so that police (ha!) and internal CCTV are able to see anything, as well as a slight deterrent element
 

Nicholas Lewis

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According to https://inews.co.uk/news/uk-gas-where-from-how-much-russia-import-britain-supplies-explained-1504257 half our gas comes from the North Sea. It's the same gas as before, extracted the same way, transported the same way, so if the price goes up three/fourfold because of the lack of gas from Russia, those UK companies are raking it in as we've seen looking at their profits.

Therefore the plan to take those profits, which must be way above anything planned, seems logical. It's taking money away from companies that weren't expecting it so it's no loss. That would protect the customers and inflation. So have I misread or missed something?
The other thing that is going on is the price of electricity is being driven way beyond teh true cost of producing it as we have a daft system where the last generator on the system sets the price for all electricity in that half hour. Yesterday and today its been over £600/MWh (its was £75 12mths ago) yet even expensive renewables can generate for less than £200/MWh so they should have a windfall tax as well. Mind you with the chaos that is happening really CEGB MkII should be instigated and it all nationalised with a remit to deliver power at the lowest possible price with what they have at their disposal currently.
 

tomuk

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The other thing that is going on is the price of electricity is being driven way beyond teh true cost of producing it as we have a daft system where the last generator on the system sets the price for all electricity in that half hour. Yesterday and today its been over £600/MWh (its was £75 12mths ago) yet even expensive renewables can generate for less than £200/MWh so they should have a windfall tax as well. Mind you with the chaos that is happening really CEGB MkII should be instigated and it all nationalised with a remit to deliver power at the lowest possible price with what they have at their disposal currently.
Well change the rules then. Why does it need nationalising and why do we need a CEGB MkII? Look at France they have lower cap on their bills but their tax will have to rise to bail out EDF again.
 

Domh245

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Well change the rules then. Why does it need nationalising and why do we need a CEGB MkII? Look at France they have lower cap on their bills but their tax will have to rise to bail out EDF again.

As proposed... (ish)

Kwasi Kwarteng to rein in green profits as energy price cap set to soar to £6,000​

Business Secretary wants firms to stop selling cheap renewables at high wholesale prices, as inflation squeezes household budgets

By Tony Diver and Lauren Almeida 20 August 2022 • 10:30pm


Kwasi Kwarteng has reassured the public that 'help is coming' CREDIT: Anadolu Agency/Getty Images Contributor
Kwasi Kwarteng is planning to clamp down on wind and solar energy firms as a new forecast predicted the energy price cap will hit £6,000 in April.
New analysis from the energy consultancy Auxilione said the energy price cap will hit £6,000 in April, after rising to £3,576 in October, and £4,799 in January.
Auxilione said the energy prices would not fall until next July, when the cap would drop by a tenth to £5,486.
The increase will mean bills will still be almost triple their current level this time next year, as inflation squeezes household budgets by up to 13 per cent.
A poll by Opinium on Saturday found that 40 per cent of the public would not be able to afford their bills at all or have to cut back on essential spending if the energy price cap rises to £3,500 in October, while a quarter say they already cannot afford their bills.
The Telegraph can reveal Mr Kwarteng, the Business Secretary, is also preparing to intervene in the energy market in an attempt to stabilise the “crazy” profits of renewables firms.

Around a third of wind and solar producers are on inflexible legacy contracts, which have earned them billions from the high price of electricity during the energy crisis.
Mr Kwarteng is planning to offer the firms a favourable fixed-term rate at which to sell energy to suppliers for 15 years if they agree to stop selling cheap renewables at high wholesale prices.
Ministers are under pressure from Tory MPs who argue that renewables firms have made enormous profits from the price of electricity because they can produce it at a cheaper rate.
Danny Kruger, who is among those lobbying Mr Kwarteng to end the legacy Renewable Obligation (RO) contracts, said they were “the biggest avoidable driver of inflation we have” and called on ministers to “move as fast as possible to change the rules”.

The Telegraph understands firms on the old contracts, which were signed between 2002 and 2013, who have made billions from the energy crisis will instead be offered deals that pay a fixed rate for power.

If the companies refuse to switch, some will remain on the variable-rate contracts until 2037, but government sources said such a deal would “help with financial planning and investment decisions” in the long run, while bringing prices down.
Even consumers with 100 per cent renewable energy tariffs have seen prices rise. This is because the price of renewable energy is effectively tied to the price of gas and other fossil fuels. If there is more demand than supply, the price of all energy goes up, regardless of the source.
So far, ministers have committed to a £400 bill discount in October for 28 million households.
But both Mr Sunak and Ms Truss have accepted the Government must do more to assist bill payers, with more than half expected to fall into energy poverty by the new year.
Both contenders have rejected calls from the Labour Party for ministers to freeze the energy price cap, preventing bills from rising.
On Saturday, it was claimed that Ms Truss's team had been frustrated by Boris Johnson's decision to finance the Sizewell C nuclear power station in Suffolk.
The Sunday Times reported that Simon Clarke, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, wrote to Mr Johnson and Nadhim Zahawi, the Chancellor, to complain the move would hinder her ability to cut taxes.

A consultation is also underway to reform Britain’s electricity markets, in an attempt to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and imported energy.
It is expected to separate the markets of renewable electricity, which is cheap, and gas-produced electricity, which is expensive.
Lord Callanan, a business minister, told MPs privately this week that ministers could launch a windfall tax on renewable producers that have not seen their costs increase while wholesale prices have risen.
But Ms Truss, who is widely expected to win the leadership contest, has already ruled out such a tax and promised savings by pausing green levies on bills.

'Help is coming'​

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Mr Kwarteng defended Ms Truss’s decision not to impose another windfall tax on energy producers as he said she would ease the cost of living crisis through cutting taxes and imposing supply-side reforms to the market.
“I understand the deep anxiety this is causing. As winter approaches, millions of families will be concerned about how they are going to make ends meet. But I want to reassure the British people that help is coming,” he said.
The RO scheme, which has allowed renewable producers to make billions in profit, is funded by a green levy that costs the average bill payer £75 each year.
A Whitehall source said: “Gas generators are making an absolute killing by flogging their electricity to consumers.
“The problem is, older renewables are forced to sell their electricity at the market price too, which is set by gas.
“Given renewables are dirt cheap and gas is eye-wateringly expensive, we need to decouple the price of renewables from gas so households fully benefit from all forms of cheap renewable energy.”

emphasis added
 

JamesT

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Ediswan

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Kite159

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Most stores leave some of their lights on for security purposes, so that police (ha!) and internal CCTV are able to see anything, as well as a slight deterrent element
They need to move away from all lights on overnight to maybe a small percentage left on with the rest on motion sensors which if they sense movement will throw the rest of the lights on.
 

trebor79

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If you are only considering net CO2, then wood wins by a country mile. All the Carbon content of the wood was pulled from the atmosphere during the lifetime of the tree, all of the Carbon in gas was sequestered millennia ago.
A common fallacy.
Carbon is carbon, doesn't matter if it was sequestered last week or a million years ago.
You're better off leaving the tree living and absorbing carbon, and burning gas which is far more efficient than burning wood in any case.
 
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