Class 311 Query

[Strathclyder]

(I didn't want to start a new thread on this as I didn't think it warranted it, but if needs be, the mods/admins are welcome to merge it with my Class 303/311 thread from 2020/21)

Class 303s/311s - Memories, favourite liveries etc.

I know there's been a few threads on this subject over the years, but seeing as they're all locked, I thought I'd start this one. With the 18th anniversary of their last revenue-earning run fast approaching (30th December 2002), I thought it appropriate to start a thread on one of the...

www.railforums.co.uk

The Class 311s are often cited, including by Wikipedia naturally, as being built by Cravens of Sheffield to a tweaked design of the Class 303s built by Pressed Steel in Linwood. By the time they were ordered (1965/66?) however, Cravens was beginning to prepare the railway rolling stock part of it's business for a merger with Metro-Cammell, a process which was more or less complete by the time they arrived in Glasgow and had entered service on what is now the Inverclyde Line in August/September 1967. Related to this, I've seen it postulated that the design drawings for the 303s provided by Pressed Steel for Cravens to use proved problematic to work with, but I don't know if there is any truth to that.

So my main query is this: is it known how much design/construction work Cravens undertook independently on the 311s before completely coming under the Met-Camm umbrella, if any at all?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Only tangentially related, but as a resources manager in Scotland I can confirm that ‘design drawing’ issues hindered the re-furbishment of the Class 303s at Springburn and also made it unattractive to consider any follow on with any 311s.

 

[Strathclyder]

Only tangentially related, but as a resources manager in Scotland I can confirm that ‘design drawing’ issues hindered the re-furbishment of the Class 303s at Springburn and also made it unattractive to consider any follow on with any 311s.

Interesting, it would help explain why the 311s were never refurbished, in tandem with the significantly smaller class size and differing traction motors/electrical equipment. Also, didn't the 311s use a different type of asbestos for insulation? Blue for the 303s & White for the 311s IIRC, the latter being far more toxic regardless of it being a better insulator. I'd be interested to know if that was indeed true and if it helped make any proposals of a similar refurbishment of the 311s unattractive.

 

[AndrewP]

Interesting, it would help explain why the 311s were never refurbished, in tandem with the significantly smaller class size and differing traction motors/electrical equipment. Also, didn't the 311s use a different type of asbestos for insulation? Blue for the 303s & White for the 311s IIRC, the latter being far more toxic regardless of it being a better insulator. I'd be interested to know if that was indeed true and if it helped make any proposals of a similar refurbishment of the 311s unattractive.

Just an aside - white asbestos is safer than blue (its relative) but its brown that is the really dangerous one

 

[Strathclyder]

Just an aside - white asbestos is safer than blue (its relative) but its brown that is the really dangerous one

Ah I see. And yes, when it comes to asbestos, it's safety when comparing the different types is indeed relative!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Interesting, it would help explain why the 311s were never refurbished, in tandem with the significantly smaller class size and differing traction motors/electrical equipment. Also, didn't the 311s use a different type of asbestos for insulation? Blue for the 303s & White for the 311s IIRC, the latter being far more toxic regardless of it being a better insulator. I'd be interested to know if that was indeed true and if it helped make any proposals of a similar refurbishment of the 311s unattractive.

There's quite a bit about the re-furbishment issue in Alan Millar's book about Strathclyde PTE, published by Ian Allan in 1985. Sadly this doesn't get to the end of the saga.

Very simply, the original intention was to life-extend both 303s and 311s to cover the go-ahead to Ayrshire electrification. This would involves some units being re-bogied and uprated to 90mph. Further changes relating to a later decision to go for driver only operation and factors like asbestos stripping and PCB electrical equipment being recognised as toxic made it all very complicated and there was a limit to what conversion rate Springburn could manage.

The Class 318s (and later 320s) emerged from this mess.

There was no 'golden solution' that was missed and the 303/311 units still rode terribly on their original bogies.

 

[Strathclyder]

^^ Interesting stuff, had no idea new bogies were on the cards at the very start before the myriad of issues started cropping up. Even though it doesn't fully cover the whole sorry refurbishment saga, that book does sound like it's worth picking up if one can find a copy.

And even though poor riding qualities bedeviled both classes their entire lives, the vast majority of the 303s that were refurbished did manage to give many years of service, though in their last couple of years (1999/2000-2002), this was mainly due to the laundry list of issues afflicting the then-new 334s.

 

[Taunton]

Did Pressed Steel actually have a professional drawing office? They were fundamentally a car body manufacturer and presser, who did build quite a lot of stock in the 1950s-60s, but it seems all designed and drawn elsewhere. Their BR Mk1 hauled stock was fully to BR designs, and the DMUs for Paddington services were drawn at Swindon, fundamentally to the Derby high-density design, and just issued for manufacture. I believe they also built a lot of simplistic BR 4-wheel wagons as well. The Class 303 seems to be their only work which started off with them. They also gave up railway work at the end of building them, so there was probably no design office continuity afterwards either.

I remember when first riding in a 303 in Glasgow I was surprised at how crude the guards' swing door was, which appeared to be made of horizontal wooden planks inside - in fact it was just like the doors on 1950s BGs, which Pressed Steel also built. I was used to the 1930s Wirral electric units (Met-Cam/BRCW design), also air doors for passengers, whose guards' door, although hand-sliding, was fully of the same standard of finish as the rest of the unit.

I don't know how Gresley bogies got selected for a range of BR electric units at that time. They seemed to have performed alright under LNER stock, but swung around under electric units.

 

[Pigeon]

I rather think they must have done, because they managed to impose the Pressed Steel flavour of body design suckage on seemingly every car they had anything to do with, and become the principal answer to the question of "why do British car body designs suck?". It's particularly apparent looking at something like the Volvo 1800, in contrast to the Swedish bodies Volvo did themselves for their other models of the time, which were very good designs. Producing railway stock to BR's designs was probably a bit like the Volvo 1800, with BR's drawings being highly specific at the level of what it has to look like overall and for some way below that, but still leaving it up to Pressed Steel to fill in the lower levels themselves with all the opportunities that brings.

 

[Helvellyn]

I don't know how Gresley bogies got selected for a range of BR electric units at that time. They seemed to have performed alright under LNER stock, but swung around under electric units.

As generally 75mph units probably was thought the Gresley was suitable, and maybe still considered better than a BR Mk1 bogie (some Mark 1 Restaurants got Gresley bogies).

However, as the 311s came after the 309s (Commonwealths throughout) and the 310s (B4s, with I think modified B5s for the motor coach) odd the 311s reverted to Gresley bogies. They had different traction motors, so a different bogie wouldn't have been the end of the world.

Always surprised it wasn't the 311s shipped South to Manchester in the 1980s so they must have had something going for them.

 

[McRhu]

The Gresley bogies provided great entertainment when hammering down from Kilpatrick, through Bowling, in a 303 (or 311 in latter times). I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that one's posterior was almost shoogled right off the moquette.

 

[Revaulx]

The Gresley bogies provided great entertainment when hammering down from Kilpatrick, through Bowling, in a 303 (or 311 in latter times). I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that one's posterior was almost shoogled right off the moquette.

The AM4s and their Great Eastern brethren (AM5 and 8) partly mitigated the awful ride of the Gresleys by having massively bouncy padded seats. Great fun!

 

[delt1c]

The AM4s and their Great Eastern brethren (AM5 and 8) partly mitigated the awful ride of the Gresleys by having massively bouncy padded seats. Great fun!

So did the 303’s and 311’s

 

[Revaulx]

So did the 303’s and 311’s

Really? It’s a hell of a long time since I rode on one, but I recall the seats being quite a lot less generously padded (and having lower, less enveloping backs) than the AM4s. Poor ride aside, they felt a great deal more modern though.

 

[delt1c]

Really? It’s a hell of a long time since I rode on one, but I recall the seats being quite a lot less generously padded (and having lower, less enveloping backs) than the AM4s. Poor ride aside, they felt a great deal more modern though.

Remember many a ride on the North Clyde service sitting behind the drivers cab enjoying the view ahead , whilst bouncing in the seat. Have to admit that later travelling on 304's they seemed to bounce all over the place , probably roughest ride ( especially in a compartment) I have had on an EMU

 

[matchmaker]

The ride in the motor coach was even worse!

 

[Helvellyn]

Really? It’s a hell of a long time since I rode on one, but I recall the seats being quite a lot less generously padded (and having lower, less enveloping backs) than the AM4s. Poor ride aside, they felt a great deal more modern though.

Is that post the mid-1980s refurb that just over half the 303 fleet received? The original seats (albeit low back) were replaced with PEP/455 style low back seats in a 2+2 layout.

 

[McRhu]

I remember the original 303 seats as being generously voluptuous with an attractive striped pattern.

 

[Beebman]

In 1982 I spent a whole day on a 303 with original seats on The Blue Train Railtour and I don't recall feeling any sort of discomfort!

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/820904wi.htm

 

[Revaulx]

Is that post the mid-1980s refurb that just over half the 303 fleet received? The original seats (albeit low back) were replaced with PEP/455 style low back seats in a 2+2 layout.

No I was going back to the mid to late 70s. The seats were like the 304s only lower backed and somewhat less bouncy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Remember many a ride on the North Clyde service sitting behind the drivers cab enjoying the view ahead , whilst bouncing in the seat. Have to admit that later travelling on 304's they seemed to bounce all over the place , probably roughest ride ( especially in a compartment) I have had on an EMU

I was a regular on the Altrincham line for several years before and after it was converted to AC. The 304s had not only significantly worse ride than the 40 year old DC units they replaced, they were also quite a bit less sprightly in their acceleration; not great for a line with so many closely spaced station stops.

 

[37114]

Just an aside - white asbestos is safer than blue (its relative) but its brown that is the really dangerous one

I thought it was generally regarded that Blue was the most dangerous out of the 3 albeit brown was more dangerous than white.

 

[Bikeman78]

There's quite a bit about the re-furbishment issue in Alan Millar's book about Strathclyde PTE, published by Ian Allan in 1985. Sadly this doesn't get to the end of the saga.

Very simply, the original intention was to life-extend both 303s and 311s to cover the go-ahead to Ayrshire electrification. This would involves some units being re-bogied and uprated to 90mph. Further changes relating to a later decision to go for driver only operation and factors like asbestos stripping and PCB electrical equipment being recognised as toxic made it all very complicated and there was a limit to what conversion rate Springburn could manage.

The Class 318s (and later 320s) emerged from this mess.

There was no 'golden solution' that was missed and the 303/311 units still rode terribly on their original bogies.

If I recall correctly there was a combined total of 110 class 303 and 311. The 318s and 320s total 43 units. How many 303s were refurbished? Did some 303s move to Manchester when the 314s arrived? I'm struggling to see how the 303/311 fleets would have cover the Ayrshire routes unless there were plenty spare in the early 1980s.

 

[Beebman]

If I recall correctly there was a combined total of 110 class 303 and 311. The 318s and 320s total 43 units. How many 303s were refurbished? Did some 303s move to Manchester when the 314s arrived? I'm struggling to see how the 303/311 fleets would have cover the Ayrshire routes unless there were plenty spare in the early 1980s.

This page has a very detailed history of the 303s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-303-s

As part of the refurbishment program, the 303's required the removal of deadly asbestos, withdrawn units 017 and 022 were used as asbestos storage vehicles for a time during the program. The sets refurbished were:
303001,003-004,006,008-014,016,019-021,023-025,027-028,032-034,037-038,040,043,045-047,051,054-056,058,061,065, 070-071,077,079-080,083,085,087-091.

In 1981 12 sets,303036, 041, 048, 049, 050, 053, 057, 059, 060, 066, 067, 078, 082, which were deemed as being surplus were transferred to Manchester. They were painted in the Greater Manchester PTE livery of Orange and Brown and operated services to and from Crewe. During their time in Manchester, 303066+303067 made it as far as London Euston on a railtour. These units would remain in the Manchester area until 1993 although most were withdrawn and scrapped long before this with 2 sets even making it to Wales for scrapping. There was three exceptions, set 048 was sent back north in 1990 for restoration back to its original style, whilst 060 and 082 were sent north to Yoker depot to be stripped for spare parts before being scrapped.

There's a similar page for the 311s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-311

And likewise for the 318s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-318

Was there any intention to use the 303/311 fleets on the Ayrshire routes? The 318s appear to have been ordered and built in advance of electrification in 1986.

 

[McRhu]

I remember one of the AM3s having half yellow panel ends, with black chevrons. I can't remember the unit number and I have never seen a picture of it since, but it definitely did exist. Can't remember if it was still in Caley blue or Rail Blue. Incidentally, the black and yellow body-side stripe of the original Caley Blue livery was painted freehand, if I picked the story up right.

 

[Bikeman78]

This page has a very detailed history of the 303s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-303-s




There's a similar page for the 311s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-311

And likewise for the 318s:
https://scottishtrains.zenfolio.com/class-318

Was there any intention to use the 303/311 fleets on the Ayrshire routes? The 318s appear to have been ordered and built in advance of electrification in 1986.

Thanks. I'd forgotten about that useful website. The arrival of the 314s and the departure of 12 units to Manchester ties up.

The fleet before the 314s arrived comprised around 110 units, minus any early casualties. In 1995 the combined 303+314+318+322 fleet was still about 110 units but with several extra electrified lines. Did they run shorter trains or was the availability of the older fleets very poor? It seemed okay in the late 1990s. If I recall correctly there were just over 40 diagrams for the 50 odd 303s.

 

[Falcon1200]

Annoyingly I can't find my book on Strathclyde Transport to confirm (or correct !) my thoughts, but what I believed happened is this;

The 16 Class 314 sets were ordered to provide the additional resources for the Argyle Line service, not to replace existing sets.

Subsequent service reductions allowed the transfer of some Class 303 sets to Manchester.

The Ayrshire electric service was originally planned to be operated by a mix of new sets and refurbished Class 303 sets, however money was found to buy 20 Class 318 sets, enough to cover all Ayrshire services; When Ardrossan South Beach/Largs was added to the scheme, an extra 318 was ordered (which is why the coach numbers of 318270 do not immediately follow those of 318269).

 

[D6130]

The 16 Class 314 sets were ordered to provide the additional resources for the Argyle Line service, not to replace existing sets.

It's a long time ago, but I was involved in the service planning for the Argyle Line opening in 1979 and ISTR that the original order was for 14 class 314 units and that an additional 2 units were then ordered to replace the class 303s lost in the Ibrox and Paisley accidents.

 

[Beebman]

I remember one of the AM3s having half yellow panel ends, with black chevrons. I can't remember the unit number and I have never seen a picture of it since, but it definitely did exist. Can't remember if it was still in Caley blue or Rail Blue. Incidentally, the black and yellow body-side stripe of the original Caley Blue livery was painted freehand, if I picked the story up right.

Is this what you're looking for?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4929626805/

It's not a very high quality photo but it's in colour so hopefully it's useful.

 

[McRhu]

Is this what you're looking for?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4929626805/

It's not a very high quality photo but it's in colour so hopefully it's useful.

That's it. Thank you!

 

[Strathclyder]

As generally 75mph units probably was thought the Gresley was suitable, and maybe still considered better than a BR Mk1 bogie (some Mark 1 Restaurants got Gresley bogies).

Here is a Mk1 Restaurant with Gresley bogies being shunted at Inverness in April 1968 (from eastbank.org.uk). Not to drag my own thread off-topic, but is it known how many Mk1s in total had Gresley bogies?

However, as the 311s came after the 309s (Commonwealths throughout) and the 310s (B4s, with I think modified B5s for the motor coach) odd the 311s reverted to Gresley bogies. They had different traction motors, so a different bogie wouldn't have been the end of the world.

Perhaps it was to keep them in line with the 303s in terms of bogie maintenance and spares even with the different traction motors, even though Gresley bogies underneath EMUs were a known quantity (IE; bouncy/rough riding characteristics) by the time the 311s entered traffic.