Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[AM9]

So you would demolish, large areas of inner London, Manchester, Liverpool etc?

My house is in a conservation area so I'm not sure you can render it externally.
With internal cavity insulation how economically worthwhile is it?

I have loft insulation, is still has an EPC of an E

We've already excepted listed houses, but to prevent any serious attempts to reduce energy leakage in every house in a conservation area would in the circumstances facing the UK would just be historical self-indulgence. Whatever the rules say now, commitment to reducing the damage to the climate trumps the importance of any current 'rules', so it would just require a change to the planning law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW it is probably cheaper to insulate the inside than the outside, I suspect, as it needn't be weatherproof. The downside is losing a bit of space.

Blocks of flats can still be done as per Grenfell, just using the correct fireproof materials, or again internally.

 

[najaB]

Burning gas to heat the house is very clean, there is a bit of C02 but, it's not nearly as bad as heating the house with coal or wood.

If you are only considering net CO2, then wood wins by a country mile. All the Carbon content of the wood was pulled from the atmosphere during the lifetime of the tree, all of the Carbon in gas was sequestered millennia ago.

 

[DelayRepay]

We've already excepted listed houses, but to prevent any serious attempts to reduce energy leakage in every house in a conservation area would in the circumstances facing the UK would just be historical self-indulgence. Whatever the rules say now, commitment to reducing the damage to the climate trumps the importance of any current 'rules', so it would just require a change to the planning law.

And, sorry if I sound like a broken record, focusing on the low hanging fruit - the houses that can easily be improved, regardless of who owns them. This will keep the installers busy while we work out what to do with the more difficult cases, and will also probably help those most in need who are less likely to live in listed buildings or conservation areas (note I said less likely, not that nobody in these properties/areas has a low income).

 

[AM9]

If you are only considering net CO2, then wood wins by a country mile. All the Carbon content of the wood was pulled from the atmosphere during the lifetime of the tree, all of the Carbon in gas was sequestered millennia ago.

Yes, but redistributing it in a few hours as carbon particulates and CO in a residential area is a major environmental issue.

 

[DelayRepay]

A slight shift in topic, does anyone know how the suppliers are going to deal with the bill credits in terms of setting Direct Debits?

In my simple mind, I assumed that when they adjust our DDs to reflect the new tariff, they'd reduce the annual amount by £400 and then set the DD based on that. But I've seen something on another forum saying that British Gas are planning to refund the government credit to the bill-payer's bank account each month. My own supplier hasn't said what they're doing yet.

 

[najaB]

Yes, but redistributing it in a few hours as carbon particulates and CO in a residential area is a major environmental issue.

Oh, without a doubt. Just pointing out that 'clean' gas isn't the solution for CO2 emissions that some make it out it be.

 

[Howardh]

A slight shift in topic, does anyone know how the suppliers are going to deal with the bill credits in terms of setting Direct Debits?

In my simple mind, I assumed that when they adjust our DDs to reflect the new tariff, they'd reduce the annual amount by £400 and then set the DD based on that. But I've seen something on another forum saying that British Gas are planning to refund the government credit to the bill-payer's bank account each month. My own supplier hasn't said what they're doing yet.

I was under the impression that the credits were going straight into one's credit, so if you had a credit of £400 with a supplier then that should increase by £40/month over winter.

But since then I've heard so many different options and no idea which is correct. Maybe it varies depending on your supplier?

I have £800 credit with OVO built over the summer. I put in £110/month. To cover winter I expect them to add the £400 in stages, so I have £1200 + £660 to spend on dual fuel until spring when my account will be £0. Hopefully I won't be spending £1800 over 6 months, at £300/month but we'll see how it goes. Dreading winter 23/24 as I will have little in credit after next summer.

 

[najaB]

Dreading winter 23/24 as I will have little in credit after next summer.

Hopefully wholesale gas prices will be closer to the historical trend by then.

 

[DelayRepay]

I was under the impression that the credits were going straight into one's credit, so if you had a credit of £400 with a supplier then that should increase by £40/month over winter.

But since then I've heard so many different options and no idea which is correct. Maybe it varies depending on your supplier?

I know the government are paying it monthly - £66/£67 per month between October and March. Like you I have heard many different things about how it will apply in practice.

I pay by fixed monthly Direct Debit. My expectation was that if, for example, the supplier calculated that my DD needed to be £200, I would actually pay £133 with the balance being covered by the credit. But I'm not sure it will work like this. I am trying to do some budgeting so it would be helpful to know.

Like you, I have a large credit balance built up over the summer so maybe I won't need to increase my DD this winter. Last year it worked perfectly with my balance being about £50 in credit on my April bill.

 

[JamesT]

I was under the impression that the credits were going straight into one's credit, so if you had a credit of £400 with a supplier then that should increase by £40/month over winter.

But since then I've heard so many different options and no idea which is correct. Maybe it varies depending on your supplier?

I have £800 credit with OVO built over the summer. I put in £110/month. To cover winter I expect them to add the £400 in stages, so I have £1200 + £660 to spend on dual fuel until spring when my account will be £0. Hopefully I won't be spending £1800 over 6 months, at £300/month but we'll see how it goes. Dreading winter 23/24 as I will have little in credit after next summer.

I think it very much depends on the supplier. I'm with Shell who have put out https://www.shellenergy.co.uk/blog/post/how-are-government-measures-helping-with-energy-bills where they say they'll credit £66/67 each month to the account. Whereas British Gas's page https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-price-news.html says they're making payments to your bank account rather than crediting at their side.

 

[Howardh]

Sorry; I quited the £400 credit as being £40/month when it should have been around £66 of course (I assume it's spread over 6 months?)

 

[cjmillsnun]

What is the point of spending thousands insulating the insides if it doesn't pay back. Unless the government is suddenly going to give grants for it.

Burning gas to heat the house is very clean, there is a bit of C02 but, it's not nearly as bad as heating the house with coal or wood.

It's a much worthwhile to tackle easier ways of reducing C02. Ie not shipping crap from China.
Production of steal for new cars etc

Burning gas produces NOx, CO, CO2, etc. all the same gasses as a car exhaust. It’s not very clean at all. Plus you have the damage of digging for and

Insulation does pay back. Especially with energy prices increasing.

 

[Trainbike46]

So you would demolish, large areas of inner London, Manchester, Liverpool etc?

That wouldn't be needed at all. I would go as far as saying that every house in this country that is structurally sound could be insulated with some thought, though some are definitely easier than others

My house is in a conservation area so I'm not sure you can render it externally.
With internal cavity insulation how economically worthwhile is it?

If you have a cavity wall, cavity insulation is usually very economically worthwhile. Though the climate emergency and energy crisis are enough reason by themselves

I have loft insulation, is still has an EPC of an E

How is your house heated? My resonably well-insulated flat has an EPC of E simply because of how terribly inefficient the heating system is, I think it was listed as a potential EPC of C if only the heating system is improved

"Why should I do something when someone else could". Passing the buck has to stop. ALL these things need doing.

Fully agree!!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Some of it is increased network prices (inflation effecting materials, wages, etc) but to my knowledge the overwhelming majority of the rise is bailing out the failed energy companies and all their customers. One might question whether its right that Ofgem's lackadaisical regulation of the sector which allowed for private companies to be set up, profits extracted during good times and then the individuals who profited to cut their losses and the mess over to the taxpayer and bill payers...

Absolutely and if they try and dump the cost of the BULB failure on us that will add another £150/household.

It would still be somewhat related to the price of wholesale electricity because it covers various balancing charges that are dififcult to recover from the retailers.
After all the system operator is the one who decides what generating plant actually generates and has to cover the cost of electricity produced but that is (nominally) consumed by noone.

The billing system is not perfect and measurable quantities of electricity are lost to resistive heating in cables and transformers, and outright electricity theft.

balancing charges are huge and getting bigger every month with the amount of renewables on the system which have to be constrained off and replaced by CCGTs which at current gas prices is an absolute disaster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==

Hopefully wholesale gas prices will be closer to the historical trend by then.

It wont be forward prices are lower than today but still massively up on 12mths ago



What we have to hope is the big six have bought forward plenty of gas volume earlier in the year when forward prices were lower otherwise the price cap is going to continue higher although there must now be massive demand destruction ie why would a pub open every day of the week if they have spend more heating it then they take in sales.

 

[duncanp]

I know the government are paying it monthly - £66/£67 per month between October and March. Like you I have heard many different things about how it will apply in practice.

I pay by fixed monthly Direct Debit. My expectation was that if, for example, the supplier calculated that my DD needed to be £200, I would actually pay £133 with the balance being covered by the credit. But I'm not sure it will work like this. I am trying to do some budgeting so it would be helpful to know.

Like you, I have a large credit balance built up over the summer so maybe I won't need to increase my DD this winter. Last year it worked perfectly with my balance being about £50 in credit on my April bill.

What I have heard is that energy companies are going to apply the discount for direct debit payers by working out the cost of energy used for the month, and then deducting the discount before applying it to your account.

Ie. If your account is £200 in credit, and the cost of energy used for the month is £250, your account will be debited by £250 - £67 = £183. You will still pay the same direct debit amount every month. So, in the example above if your regular direct debit amount is £175, the balance of your account will be <Opening Balance> + <Regular Direct Debit> - (<Cost of energy used> - Discount>) = £200 +£175 - (£250 - £67) = £192.

 

[Ediswan]

I pay by fixed monthly Direct Debit. My expectation was that if, for example, the supplier calculated that my DD needed to be £200, I would actually pay £133 with the balance being covered by the credit. But I'm not sure it will work like this. I am trying to do some budgeting so it would be helpful to know.

Here is what E.ON say:

• Fixed Direct Debit customers will receive the money automatically as a deduction to their monthly Direct Debit.
• Pay on receipt of bill customers and regular cash payment customers will see the money automatically applied as a credit to their energy accounts in the first week of each month. This will show as a credit in the payments section of their monthly bill.
• Smart prepayment customers will see the money credited directly to their meters as a top up in the first week of each month.
• Traditional prepayment customers will be provided with vouchers in the first week of each month. It's likely these will only be redeemable at the Post Office, not at all top-up locations.

That appears to match your expectation for DD. Can't comment on other suppliers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder do the anti-smart-meter prepay people still think they're a bad idea?

 

[Smidster]

Absolutely and if they try and dump the cost of the BULB failure on us that will add another £150/household.

balancing charges are huge and getting bigger every month with the amount of renewables on the system which have to be constrained off and replaced by CCGTs which at current gas prices is an absolute disaster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==


It wont be forward prices are lower than today but still massively up on 12mths ago

View attachment 119612

What we have to hope is the big six have bought forward plenty of gas volume earlier in the year when forward prices were lower otherwise the price cap is going to continue higher although there must now be massive demand destruction ie why would a pub open every day of the week if they have spend more heating it then they take in sales.

The question to ask yourself is what is going to push prices down over the 12-18 months.

Realistically the only thing that would have an impact in the short-term is a change of regime in Russia and that is very unlikely to happen.

In the longer run there is more you can do around supply, and especially a transition to renewables which we should be going absolutely hell-for-leather on right now, but it takes time to come on-stream.

It is going to be a very dark (maybe literally) period - I hope you enjoyed the good times.

 

[DelayRepay]

Here is what E.ON say:

That appears to match your expectation for DD. Can't comment on other suppliers.

Meanwhile British Gas say

If you pay by Direct Debit​

We'll send the money straight to your bank each month – like a refund – once your Direct Debit has gone through. If your monthly Direct Debit payment is lower than the monthly discount value, the remaining balance will be applied to your energy account.

Which implies they'll take the full DD amount then send £66 back. Which seems an inefficient way of doing things!

 

[Howardh]

I wonder do the anti-smart-meter prepay people still think they're a bad idea?

Wish I could get mine to work; They have said they would fix it remotely but so far hasn't worked, and it's showing the wrong tariff for both fuels. However the actual billing on the OVOs site is correct, so I'm not paying for more than I use. But begs the question about smart meters...what's the point?? If I need to know my consumption/cost, the online account updated daily.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The question to ask yourself is what is going to push prices down over the 12-18 months.

demand destruction should have a modest impact also there are more LNG terminals coming on line and plenty of LNG vessels to ship the gas

Realistically the only thing that would have an impact in the short-term is a change of regime in Russia and that is very unlikely to happen.

agreed but the West can get more out of Russia if it changes its behaviour. Yes that might be a climb down but high energy prices might trigger a depression and the consequences of that on societal instability are a much bigger threat that can't be ignored.

In the longer run there is more you can do around supply, and especially a transition to renewables which we should be going absolutely hell-for-leather on right now, but it takes time to come on-stream.

problem here is everybody wants wind turbines now and solar panels both of much are very dependant on China providing the rare earth resources and costs and lead times are going up What is utterly disgraceful in the UK is how we've lead the world on offshore wind but have done nothing to grow our own supply chain. We make blades but the high value turbines and electrical transmission equipment are largely al sourced from Europe and Asia. Go back 60 years when the CEGB was building out power stations and the 275/400kv grid its was ALL sourced from UK suppliers.

It is going to be a very dark (maybe literally) period - I hope you enjoyed the good times.

Its an increasing possibility but some leadership from our politicians that the way to avoid it is to tell people the truth and by economising its possible to avoid it.

 

[najaB]

But begs the question about smart meters...what's the point?? If I need to know my consumption/cost, the online account updated daily.

And how do you suppose the data is fed back to the online account?

 

[duncanp]

Meanwhile British Gas say


Which implies they'll take the full DD amount then send £66 back. Which seems an inefficient way of doing things!

I think the greedy grasping thieving little &*&^£%^ energy companies have been given the choice of applying the discount in the way that British Gas are doing, or deducting the discount from the cost of energy used before applying the money to your account, as I described in my post earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wish I could get mine to work; They have said they would fix it remotely but so far hasn't worked, and it's showing the wrong tariff for both fuels. However the actual billing on the OVOs site is correct, so I'm not paying for more than I use. But begs the question about smart meters...what's the point?? If I need to know my consumption/cost, the online account updated daily.

Because you have a smart meter!

 

[Howardh]

And how do you suppose the data is fed back to the online account?

The actual meters on the gas and electricity are correct, it's the darned thingy in the kitchen that's wrong, that I call my "dumb meter" - the display unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remotely independently of the meter. Otherwise I'd be getting the wrong tarrif on my bills.

I can tell you that it's not because they have no ability to break down electrons as having gone to a specific house from anywhere remote of it, otherwise they'd have no need for any meter.

Where it is in fact coming from is your smart meter. The wrong tariff being set up on it just affects its display.

 

[Howardh]

I can tell you that it's not because they have no ability to break down electrons as having gone to a specific house from anywhere remote of it, otherwise they'd have no need for any meter.

Where it is in fact coming from is your smart meter. The wrong tariff being set up on it just affects its display.

I've corrected my mistake. Trying to separate the readings from the actual meters (correct) from the readings shown on that meter display/monitor, which is incorrect. It's that display they can't get right, so to be honest it's better switched off entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've corrected my mistake. Trying to separate the readings from the actual meters (correct) from the readings shown on that meter display/monitor, which is incorrect. It's that display they can't get right, so to be honest it's better switched off entirely.

I don't use the little display either. I use it more for "fit and forget", i.e. I get accurate bills without having to do anything at all.

 

[Howardh]

I don't use the little display either. I use it more for "fit and forget", i.e. I get accurate bills without having to do anything at all.

All it does is give me an idea of how much I'm using, so if it's just the lights on it shows a little bar, but if the oven't on it shows a huge bar. Handy for checking if an appliance has been left on - if it shows a couple of bars then go round the house and check. So I suppose it's useful that way!