Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[brad465]

I can't tell if this is satire or not (like a lot of things in recent years), The Sun are reporting a proposal to get GPs to write prescriptions that allow those struggling money off their energy bills:

https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1561077534871228417

EXCL - Latest on Treasury plans to ease the cost of living crisis. GPs would be able to write prescriptions to give needy Brits money off their energy bills under proposals. The blueprint is one of a bunch of options No11 boffins are kicking around.

 

[JonathanH]

We may need to help people in the short term deal with the cost of energy increases, because lots of bankrupt people isn't a good thing.

Are we really expecting there to be energy price deflation in the future? Surely this is just going to get worse and worse? I don't expect wages to catch up with energy price inflation.

Even if inflation (not energy specifically) falls to 2% a year it will still mean prices are higher than today and therefore a struggle.

 

[kristiang85]

À

I can't tell if this is satire or not (like a lot of things in recent years), The Sun are reporting a proposal to get GPs to write prescriptions that allow those struggling money off their energy bills:

https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1561077534871228417

But first you'd need to get an appointment with said GP to achieve that...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we really expecting there to be energy price deflation in the future? Surely this is just going to get worse and worse? I don't expect wages to catch up with energy price inflation.

Even if inflation (not energy specifically) falls to 2% a year it will still mean prices are higher than today and therefore a struggle.

No. The idea is that we have a massive programme of insulation so we pay more for energy but use hugely less, and that help bridges the interim period for people whose houses haven't been improved yet.

 

[JamesT]

Are we really expecting there to be energy price deflation in the future? Surely this is just going to get worse and worse? I don't expect wages to catch up with energy price inflation.

Even if inflation (not energy specifically) falls to 2% a year it will still mean prices are higher than today and therefore a struggle.

The graph on https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jun/14/uk-pay-falling-inflation-energy-bills-unemployment shows several sustained periods in the last couple of decades where average wages grew in real terms. Inflation of 2% is the Bank of England target as you do want a little inflation in the system to keep things moving.
In terms of energy inflation, https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas (might need to manually set the graph to 25Y or All) shows periods in the last 20 years when gas prices in the US have been even higher than now. It’s a world market so I’m assuming their prices are a fair reflection. But there are some specific events occurring right now mostly related to Putin that are pushing up the price. If that can be fixed, it’s not unreasonable to believe that prices would fall back towards their norm. Which would lower the costs of everyone using oil and gas and their products (e.g. the electricity generators)

 

[DelayRepay]

I can't tell if this is satire or not (like a lot of things in recent years), The Sun are reporting a proposal to get GPs to write prescriptions that allow those struggling money off their energy bills:

https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1561077534871228417

It doesn't seem the best use of NHS resources, but on the other hand I guess it's no different than the current system of GPs being able to issue food bank referrals (along with others like teachers, social workers etc).

If someone has a medical condition that means they need to use more energy, then it could be sensible if the GP could 'prescribe' an energy credit to cover that. But for general poverty, I think the GPs are too busy dealing with medical problems to start dealing with people who cannot afford to pay their gas bill. An organisation like Citizens Advice may be better placed to deal with this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

Are we really expecting there to be energy price deflation in the future? Surely this is just going to get worse and worse? I don't expect wages to catch up with energy price inflation.

Even if inflation (not energy specifically) falls to 2% a year it will still mean prices are higher than today and therefore a struggle.

In the long term, yes, as the world moves further from being dependent on fossil fuels, and as homes become more efficient causing demand to fall.

In the short term, no. I can guarantee we'll be having the same debate this time next year, and the year after.

 

[cactustwirly]

No. The idea is that we have a massive programme of insulation so we pay more for energy but use hugely less, and that help bridges the interim period for people whose houses haven't been improved yet.

Insulation isn't the answer for most houses.
Most inner city housing stock is Victorian Edwardian terraced housing. How do you suggest those are insulated?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Insulation isn't the answer for most houses.
Most inner city housing stock is Victorian Edwardian terraced housing. How do you suggest those are insulated?

In the middle of the last century, north-western region cities such as Liverpool, Salford and Manchester carried out slum-clearance of vast swathes of inner-city housing stock and built large council house estates in the outer areas of those cities to rehouse those residents.

 

[DelayRepay]

Insulation isn't the answer for most houses.
Most inner city housing stock is Victorian Edwardian terraced housing. How do you suggest those are insulated?

We must not let perfect be the enemy of good. There are measures that can be applied, even though these houses will never be efficient as newly built ones. For example there is no reason a Victorian terraced house cannot have loft insulation (although I appreciate that in many such houses the loft has been converted into an extra bedroom).

 

[AM9]

Insulation isn't the answer for most houses.
Most inner city housing stock is Victorian Edwardian terraced housing. How do you suggest those are insulated?

It may be that many older houses are made habitable by the addition of external insulation. Just because they were built between 1840 and 1910, doesn't mean that they are all required to be listed as of architectural significance. It's all very well whinging about external insulation being 'ugly', - it's not half as ugly as deaths through hypothermia and/or starvation, - (unless you live in comfort and can ignore it because it's somebody else's problem)!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Insulation isn't the answer for most houses.

Any house for which it isn't the answer and isn't of specific historic importance needs to be demolished. The situation with that and climate change is that important. But there aren't many houses where it's totally impossible at all with a bit of thought.

Most inner city housing stock is Victorian Edwardian terraced housing. How do you suggest those are insulated?

On the inside. I recall reading of a case where a Victorian terrace was converted to full Passivhaus. You lose a bit of space out of your rooms but it is perfectly possible.

However it is also an option if you don't mind losing the look to do it outside and render over the top. I have seen that done at an old friend's son's terrace in Nottingham as part of a Council scheme. It doesn't look terrible at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

We must not let perfect be the enemy of good. There are measures that can be applied, even though these houses will never be efficient as newly built ones. For example there is no reason a Victorian terraced house cannot have loft insulation (although I appreciate that in many such houses the loft has been converted into an extra bedroom).

You can insulate it and convert it. You just put 6" of Kingspan between the rafters and board the ceiling over it.

You are totally right, though - perfection is the enemy of good - there are enough houses that have hardly any loft insulation, to start with. If we ensured every house had at least a foot thickness of the itchy stuff and double glazing in all windows and doors, plus a thick curtain over the front door if there is no enclosed porch, that'd be a start.

 

[DelayRepay]

You are totally right, though - perfection is the enemy of good - there are enough houses that have hardly any loft insulation, to start with. If we ensured every house had at least a foot thickness of the itchy stuff and double glazing in all windows and doors, plus a thick curtain over the front door if there is no enclosed porch, that'd be a start.

And, to repeat the point from a few pages ago, this would benefit everyone. The resident of the home would benefit most from being warmer and having lower bills, but everyone would benefit through the reduction in demand for energy, which would help to negate the risk of blackouts, and should lead to lower prices for everyone. Even a climate change denier can't argue with basic economics

 

[cactustwirly]

Any house for which it isn't the answer and isn't of specific historic importance needs to be demolished. The situation with that and climate change is that important. But there aren't many houses where it's totally impossible at all with a bit of thought.



On the inside. I recall reading of a case where a Victorian terrace was converted to full Passivhaus. You lose a bit of space out of your rooms but it is perfectly possible.

However it is also an option if you don't mind losing the look to do it outside and render over the top. I have seen that done at an old friend's son's terrace in Nottingham as part of a Council scheme. It doesn't look terrible at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==



You can insulate it and convert it. You just put 6" of Kingspan between the rafters and board the ceiling over it.

You are totally right, though - perfection is the enemy of good - there are enough houses that have hardly any loft insulation, to start with. If we ensured every house had at least a foot thickness of the itchy stuff and double glazing in all windows and doors, plus a thick curtain over the front door if there is no enclosed porch, that'd be a start.

So you would demolish, large areas of inner London, Manchester, Liverpool etc?

My house is in a conservation area so I'm not sure you can render it externally.
With internal cavity insulation how economically worthwhile is it?

I have loft insulation, is still has an EPC of an E

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you would demolish, large areas of inner London, Manchester, Liverpool etc?

If you're talking about the terraces, no. They can be insulated inside, outside or both. As I said I know someone in one of those houses in Nottingham who has had exactly that done.

My house is in a conservation area so I'm not sure you can render it externally.

Do it internally then.

With internal cavity insulation how economically worthwhile is it?

The climate emergency has presumably escaped you?

I have loft insulation, is still has an EPC of an E

There are plenty that are worse, as they don't, but it should be possible to reach C with pretty much every house.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Fundamentally, I want a smaller government. Government and taxes should provide (in no particular order):
Defence
Law and order
Education
Health care
Cultural things like museums
National parks
Policies and laws that make for a nice community and enviornment

Everything else should be swept away IMO.

It is notable you don't mention what exactly should be cut from what the government currently provide. Pretty much everything our taxes are spent on can be argued to be part of that list of yours. To bring it on topic even things like financial support for rising energy bills would count because if people can't pay for heating then that will very quickly turn into both a health issue and a law and order issue.

 

[cactustwirly]

If you're talking about the terraces, no. They can be insulated inside, outside or both. As I said I know someone in one of those houses in Nottingham who has had exactly that done.



Do it internally then.



The climate emergency has presumably escaped you?




There are plenty that are worse, as they don't, but it should be possible to reach C with pretty much every house.

What is the point of spending thousands insulating the insides if it doesn't pay back. Unless the government is suddenly going to give grants for it.

Burning gas to heat the house is very clean, there is a bit of C02 but, it's not nearly as bad as heating the house with coal or wood.

It's a much worthwhile to tackle easier ways of reducing C02. Ie not shipping crap from China.
Production of steal for new cars etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the point of spending thousands insulating the insides if it doesn't pay back. Unless the government is suddenly going to give grants for it.

I am proposing that they should. And as energy won't get cheaper, in time it would.

Burning gas to heat the house is very clean, there is a bit of C02 but, it's not nearly as bad as heating the house with coal or wood.

Carbon is very similar. Don't confuse it with particulates and NOx at the point of use.

It's a much worthwhile to tackle easier ways of reducing C02. Ie not shipping crap from China.
Production of steal for new cars etc

"Why should I do something when someone else could". Passing the buck has to stop. ALL these things need doing.

 

[cactustwirly]

I am proposing that they should. And as energy won't get cheaper, in time it would.



Carbon is very similar. Don't confuse it with particulates and NOx at the point of use.



"Why should I do something when someone else could". Passing the buck has to stop. ALL these things need doing.

It's pointless though, houses burning gas is a tiny percentage of CO2 emissions.
It's the globalized economy, America and China are the issue

 

[kristiang85]

The climate emergency has presumably escaped you?

People spending a fortune on insulating their houses in Britain is going to do sod all for the global emissions.

This is a macroeconomic problem, and impoverishing people - most of whom are already in the lower financial cohorts - is not the solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's pointless though, houses burning gas is a tiny percentage of CO2 emissions.
It's the globalized economy, America and China are the issue

Any reduction is good.

People spending a fortune on insulating their houses in Britain is going to do sod all for the global emissions.

This is a macroeconomic problem, and impoverishing people - most of whom are already in the lower financial cohorts - is not the solution.

It won't impoverish them, as the Goverment would provide the money, potentially as a charge against the property. They would benefit due to considerably lower use of energy.

 

[Howardh]

What's all this (as mentioned above) about doctors prescribing medical notes to get your bills down? Eh? How do you qualify?? "Oh doc, it's a bit nippy out there and I'm feeling my knees"? Someone with no money in the bank...someone with thousands in the bank? Treated equally??

As far as I know, doctors don't have access to your financial records, so can someone with zillions go to their private doc for assistance, yet a pensioner who can barely make it down the stairs has tos pend hours trying to get thorugh??

I'll be ringing up for sure! Barmpot idea.

 

[DelayRepay]

What's all this (as mentioned above) about doctors prescribing medical notes to get your bills down? Eh? How do you qualify?? "Oh doc, it's a bit nippy out there and I'm feeling my knees"? Someone with no money in the bank...someone with thousands in the bank? Treated equally??

As far as I know, doctors don't have access to your financial records, so can someone with zillions go to their private doc for assistance, yet a pensioner who can barely make it down the stairs has tos pend hours trying to get thorugh??

I'll be ringing up for sure! Barmpot idea.

Like I said, in many areas GPs are able to issue referrals to food banks, alongside other organisations like schools or social services. I guess this would work in a similar way. I don't think you'd specifically be advised to go to the doctor for a heating 'prescription', rather it would be something the GP could do if they thought living in a cold house was making a medical condition worse.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like I said, in many areas GPs are able to issue referrals to food banks, alongside other organisations like schools or social services. I guess this would work in a similar way. I don't think you'd specifically be advised to go to the doctor for a heating 'prescription', rather it would be something the GP could do if they thought living in a cold house was making a medical condition worse.

Don't GPs already have enough work on their hands dealing with "the healing of the sick"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't GPs already have enough work on their hands dealing with "the healing of the sick"?

Advanced asthma inhalers like Fostair cost £50+ a pop, some over £100. A bit of gas may be a good investment if it allows an improvement with the basic generic ones.

 

[Howardh]

Like I said, in many areas GPs are able to issue referrals to food banks, alongside other organisations like schools or social services. I guess this would work in a similar way. I don't think you'd specifically be advised to go to the doctor for a heating 'prescription', rather it would be something the GP could do if they thought living in a cold house was making a medical condition worse.

So if I live in a house that's cold and I don't have a medical condition; the fact that living in a cold house ultimately will give me a medical condition, such as hypothermia is immaterial? Why not work on prevention rather than a cure?!

Edit, aren't there statute rules which states workers, such as office staff, can only work if their temperature is above a certain level, something like (please educate) 16c?? I can see many a pensioner huddled up at home in far lower temperatures than that.

 

[Busaholic]

Edit, aren't there statute rules which states workers, such as office staff, can only work if their temperature is above a certain level, something like (please educate) 16c?? I can see many a pensioner huddled up at home in far lower temperatures than that.

Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963; the temperature must not fall below 16C once the premises have been open to the worker for an hour.

 

[Howardh]

Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963; the temperature must not fall below 16C once the premises have been open to the worker for an hour.

Thanks, so I was along the right lines. Pity that can't be brought in for pensioners at home. Any part-time jobs available on said premises?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if I live in a house that's cold and I don't have a medical condition; the fact that living in a cold house ultimately will give me a medical condition, such as hypothermia is immaterial? Why not work on prevention rather than a cure?!

Edit, aren't there statute rules which states workers, such as office staff, can only work if their temperature is above a certain level, something like (please educate) 16c?? I can see many a pensioner huddled up at home in far lower temperatures than that.

Prevention is a massive programme of bringing the insulation of every house in the UK up to scratch. That's a 5 to 10 year project.

 

[Cdd89]

I am proposing that they should. And as energy won't get cheaper, in time it would.

Why the certainty that energy won’t get cheaper?

I can well agree it won’t get cheaper than 2021, or even early 2022; but my understanding is that short term factors are driving some of the most recent price increases (including increases in the price of substitutes).

 

[Howardh]

Prevention is a massive programme of bringing the insulation of every house in the UK up to scratch. That's a 5 to 10 year project.

Mine's a house from the 1930's and was fully insulated years ago, and you can tell! In the heatwave took a couple of days to warm up to get the inside to 25c, and when it cooled down took a couple of days to get back down to 20c. However the house is quite big (3 large bedrooms) so despite the insulation, no point in having any radiators on except the room I intend to use, the one thing I need to do is fix the heavy curtains as they cover the radiator right now. I do have blinds on those windows though which helps!! Only one window isn't double glazed (hallway) so that will be probably curtained/boarded over, and the outside doors thoroughly draughproofed.

If none of that works, might set fire to a few fivers to keep warm as that might be cheaper than turning the gas on....