Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[JamieL]

Because the railway is providing an essential public service. Those folks paid for a ticket so they should be able to board the train at the time they wish. If that requires declassifying first class then so be it. Getting everyone to their destination on time is more important than the comfort of a minority of people in first class.

The same could be said for domestic flights, or the road network, or coach travel. Yet all offer a blend of services at different levels.

And again, its not about leaving people behind, its about inviting them to upgrade.

 

[lachlan]

The same could be said for domestic flights, or the road network, or coach travel. Yet all offer a blend of services at different levels.

And again, its not about leaving people behind, its about inviting them to upgrade.

And what do you propose we do if they don’t wish to pay more?

Unsure how this compares to the road network, or coaches, or flights to be honest

 

[43066]

I think social hierarchies are perceived to be flatter thsn they used to be (whether they are or not is another debate...). Terminology changes would align with approaches in other industries, e.g. airline industry.

I suppose it depends on whether you consider “first class” to be a description of the product, or of the people travelling within it! Certainly at my operator many first class tickets are also cheap advances. The highest price fare payers these days are likely to be those travelling on business holding standard class open returns.

Because the railway is providing an essential public service. Those folks paid for a ticket so they should be able to board the train at the time they wish. If that requires declassifying first class then so be it. Getting everyone to their destination on time is more important than the comfort of a minority of people in first class.

It should only be done to prevent people being left behind, or where crowding is becoming a safety issue. Not merely when standard is busy, even uncomfortably busy. The railway isn’t supposed to be a charity and allowing people to pay extra for first increases choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same could be said for domestic flights, or the road network, or coach travel. Yet all offer a blend of services at different levels.

And again, its not about leaving people behind, its about inviting them to upgrade.

Once again, if you have a plane that is full in Economy they upgrade people to business for free to free up seats. It's not possible to do that the same way with trains because there's no check-in.

 

[43066]

Once again, if you have a plane that is full in Economy they upgrade people to business for free to free up seats. It's not possible to do that the same way with trains because there's no check-in.

And also because, unlike aircraft, trains aren’t “full” when all seats are taken. Railway passengers can be expected to stand, as per what their ticket entitles them to, with no expectation of an upgrade.

If airlines were allowed to carry standees I’m sure they would!

 

[LowLevel]

Once again, if you have a plane that is full in Economy they upgrade people to business for free to free up seats. It's not possible to do that the same way with trains because there's no check-in.

They don't allow standees on a plane is perhaps more accurate. I can quite easily, if I wished to, wander down a busy train and offer a few people official upgrades to first class if I wanted to - there's even a coupon for it on my ticket machine. I don't actually work trains with first class, but the train crew have always had an element of discretion.

On the other point regarding standing, don't know what the current state of play is but the Intercity TOCs used to have internal policies that first class passengers without a seat would be entitled to a refund of the difference in fare to standard.

10 plus years ago when I worked on the platform at an IC station we had a few trains that were often full in first class - we used to offer a seat in standard with a rebate or a first class seat on the next train 5 minutes later which was a full length HST with 2 and a bit FC coaches.

 

[WizCastro197]

There is a difference between kids naturally being kids - laughing, playing and chatting - and parents playing entertainment devices out loud for them, of course, The latter is badly behaved parents, which is why I have no time for it.

Yes I agree. That’s why I am always make sure that my brother has headphones when travelling for the sake of everyone else and my own sanity!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have been a regular standard class traveller - and will still use it on the rare occasion I use a train for leisure purposes. I have never found the environment acceptable to work in though.

I do think the "classes" should be renamed into something more suitable for modern Britain. Perhaps "Business Gold", "Standard Premium" and "Standard Saver" or similar.

That’s really a very overly PC thing to say. First class is named so to reflect it being the nicest way to travel.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Does Eurostar declassify its first class or upgrades some standard passengers to first class whenever the train gets full?

 

[AlterEgo]

Does Eurostar declassify its first class or upgrades some standard passengers to first class whenever the train gets full?

No, it is reservation-only, so there are no standees. And I don't think they do operational upgrades either - bumping standard people up to SP to free up more ticket sales in standard, because I don't think the economics work for them.

 

[LowLevel]

No, it is reservation-only, so there are no standees. And I don't think they do operational upgrades either - bumping standard people up to SP to free up more ticket sales in standard, because I don't think the economics work for them.

They do have the facility for the train manager to upgrade people without payment - whether they ever do it as a routine I don't know.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does Eurostar declassify its first class or upgrades some standard passengers to first class whenever the train gets full?

There's no Standard or First Class on Eurostar. It's Second Class (as per standard European terminology), Standard Premier (equivalent to First Class) and Business Premier (only if you're loaded!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no Standard or First Class on Eurostar. It's Second Class (as per standard European terminology), Standard Premier (equivalent to First Class) and Business Premier (only if you're loaded!).

It's not. The lowest class is Standard, not Second. It says on their website.

 

[AlterEgo]

They do have the facility for the train manager to upgrade people without payment - whether they ever do it as a routine I don't know.

Would imagine this is more for goodwill upgrades or service recovery (air con failure in a coach for example).

 

[Goldfish62]

It's not. The lowest class is Standard, not Second. It says on their website.

Ops, my mistake. Humblest apologies. It used to be Second Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ops, my mistake. Humblest apologies. It used to be Second Class.

I have a feeling they changed it when Standard Premier became a thing, i.e. from First and Second to Standard, Standard Premier and Business Premier.

 

[43066]

They don't allow standees on a plane is perhaps more accurate. I can quite easily, if I wished to, wander down a busy train and offer a few people official upgrades to first class if I wanted to - there's even a coupon for it on my ticket machine. I don't actually work trains with first class, but the train crew have always had an element of discretion.

On that note (and appreciate it might vary by TOC), do guards generally have authority to declassify 1st purely at their sole discretion or do they need to agree it with control?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On that note (and appreciate it might vary by TOC), do guards generally have authority to declassify 1st purely at their sole discretion or do they need to agree it with control?

I suspect it varies by TOC. With the frequency it's done on LNR I suspect guards have the authority there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==

Or we could stop mucking about with railway terminology that has been perfectly fine for ~150 years. We can't have "guards" anymore, we have to have "train managers"....or "conductors".....or any one of 101 different names for what appears to be exactly the same job.

Guard is a specific Rulebook safety role. You can have any number of job titles that include performing that role and maybe other stuff too like selling tickets, or being in charge of a team of other staff like caterers.

 

[LowLevel]

On that note (and appreciate it might vary by TOC), do guards generally have authority to declassify 1st purely at their sole discretion or do they need to agree it with control?

It's generally the guard's sole discretion and is notified to control to be logged.

 

[43066]

It's generally the guard's sole discretion and is notified to control to be logged.

Makes sense, thanks. Exactly as it should be since they’re the ones on the ground.

 

[hexagon789]

I have a feeling they changed it when Standard Premier became a thing, i.e. from First and Second to Standard, Standard Premier and Business Premier.

Eurostar has always had 3 classes i understand, what was Leisure Select became Standard Premier and the catering offer declined; nothing else has really changed. Standard has always been Standard, the launch fares offer certainly used "Standard Class"!

 

[miklcct]

Some regional services (LNR Euston - Crewe, GA London - Norwich, SWR London - Weymouth/Exeter) MAY justify it,

I'll say the SWR London - Weymouth / Exeter service is a proper "intercity" service, at least between Waterloo and Southampton / Bournemouth / Salisbury. Similar to the LNR Euston - Birmingham / Crewe services south of Northampton, GA London - Norwich which they actually call it as intercity.

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

I'll rather fly easyJet / Ryanair if the flexibility of train travel is removed.

Queue to get a reservation? Is your computer and smartphone broken? There are also regional trains between those stations.

If intercity trains can't carry local passengers, regional trains will get scrammed. Imagine none of the GWR intercity services carry passengers between London and Reading, how can the regional trains cope with the demand?

People have certainly got used to that, but with a leisure oriented railway no longer willing to pay huge uplifts of 300% over even an Off Peak Return that is simply no longer economic. It needs higher occupancy or complete removal.

Seatfrog's existence is symptomatic of bad yield management / too much 1st, it isn't a viable business model for all of it.

First class is a premium product and cater for the rich. The proportion of first class should be reduced (how should a 5-coach LNER train has 1.5 coaches as first class?! There should only be 1/3 of a coach as first class which caters exclusively to the rich).

I have been a regular standard class traveller - and will still use it on the rare occasion I use a train for leisure purposes. I have never found the environment acceptable to work in though.

I do think the "classes" should be renamed into something more suitable for modern Britain. Perhaps "Business Gold", "Standard Premium" and "Standard Saver" or similar.

"First" and "Standard" are commonly-accepted terms which are the simplest to understand.