Grand Central give up on Pontefract

[wbbminerals]

I don't know wether this has already been posted but Grand Central plan to stop calling at Pontefract due to low passenger numbers, replacing it with a stop at Mirfield.

From this article in the Pontefract and Castleford Express:

RAIL chiefs have revealed plans to axe a service between Pontefract and London – hailed as the ticket to boost the town’s economy – after serving just 15 passengers a day.

Grand Central Trains announced this week it has applied to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) to take a “faster” and “more direct route” to the capital after “disappointing” passenger figures from the town’s Monkhill railway station.

and:

A spokesman for Grand Central said passenger numbers from Pontefract had been “disappointing” and confirmed it had applied to the ORR to change the route – making an additional stop at Mirfield.

So does this mean after going through Kirkgate to London it would join the Wakefield line to Doncaster at Hare Park Junction?

 

[Eric]

I have to welcome this news because as it stands at the moment it's quicker for me to go via Leeds to get to London KX then the three hour journey on GC.

 

[wbbminerals]

I agree, it is good news, although I will miss being able to go to Ponte on a decent train!

 

[tbtc]

Mirfield would have been a more logical stop in the first place.

Any idea how much faster it'd be to avoid Pontecarlo?

 

[wbbminerals]

Well at the moment it's 43 mins to Donny from Wakefield Kirkgate, I would imagine it would be about 25mins or so without Ponte (please note this is an estimate and I'm not sure).

Times can be seen here: http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/110850 GC Timetable NE&York to London V2.pdf

 

[Eric]

I think overall it'll cut the journey time by at least 20 minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I mentioned this last week in the ECML thread, in the context of GC's other extant application, which aims to have all their Sunderland and Bradford services call at Doncaster. They hope this will be approved as some sort of compensation for their services being slowed down on the ECML as part of the overall standard pattern 6 tph timetable.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31492&page=20

2nd post give the link to the track access application for the Doncaster calls...

 

[mrcheek]

well as long as they keep things as they are for another month, so I can do the old route on my ALR in March.
Then Ill do the new route next year....

 

[laird]

Is there no chance of improving the line speed on the route via Pontefract Monkhill to allow it to remain part of the route?
Adding Mirfield is interesting, I guess that would be to give a quicker connection to Huddersfield?
Passenger number there doesn't seem that much to choose between Pontefract Monkhill and Mirfield.
I wonder why the Pontefract residents haven't taken to the service, for them it would have been quite a good link to London I would have thought being just the Doncaster stop away from Kings Cross.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder why the Pontefract residents haven't taken to the service, for them it would have been quite a good link to London I would have thought being just the Doncaster stop away from Kings Cross.

Maybe there just isn't enough suppressed demand. Just like Wrexham really.

 

[43167]

The options for Pontefract are simple, use it or lose it. They havn't used it, so it looks like they will use it. Its been running for about 9 months, so GC are right to explore the options.

 

[TheWalrus]

Good idea. Makes so much more sense and there are much better places to call at on the route via Bentley.

 

[tbtc]

Adding Mirfield is interesting, I guess that would be to give a quicker connection to Huddersfield?

Mirfield is handy for Huddersfield/ Dewsbury/ Kirklees

Then again, Pontefract is close to Castleford/ Knottingley (the kind of people who'd normally have to go to Wakefield)

As an Open Access operator, I guess they have to adjust to demand a lot quicker than a "normal" TOC can. I'm still not convinced by the Bradford service (when busier services in Yorkshire have shorter trains), but at least this move shows that GC are being realistic in what they serve and fair play to them.

 

[Failed Unit]

The options for Pontefract are simple, use it or lose it. They havn't used it, so it looks like they will use it. Its been running for about 9 months, so GC are right to explore the options.

I guess Pontefract is a bit different in the sense that you can drive to Doncaster and Wakefield fairly easily (or use a train to get to Wakefield) and use the much more frequent east coast service. Hartlepool however is a bit railway isolated and the drive to the ECML is a lot longer.

It will be interesting to see if demand picks up as a result of this change, as many of its key markets are still significantly quicker by changing at Leeds.

 

[4SRKT]

Why bother with Mirfield at all and not just cut the Ponte stop and the diversion away from the best route?

 

[Failed Unit]

Why bother with Mirfield at all and not just cut the Ponte stop and the diversion away from the best route?

Quicker change for Huddersfield?

 

[4SRKT]

Quicker change for Huddersfield?

Possibly, but wouldn't Huddersfield punters just drive to Brighouse with its decent car park as they do now?

 

[Failed Unit]

Possibly, but wouldn't Huddersfield punters just drive to Brighouse with its decent car park as they do now?

Or just take a train to Leeds or Manchester and change at either of those stations

To be honest I am not sure what GCs unique selling point on this route is, apart from direct. WSRC did have the quality of service and the food in particular, but from what I understand the catering is better on East Coast.

 

[radamfi]

In most countries, there would be no market for WSMR and Grand Central. However, a lot of people in Britain insist on direct trains, because connections are not as respected.

 

[4SRKT]

In most countries, there would be no market for WSMR and Grand Central. However, a lot of people in Britain insist on direct trains, because connections are not as respected.

Well, there's no market for WSMR in this country either.........

 

[Eric]

Or just take a train to Leeds or Manchester and change at either of those stations

To be honest I am not sure what GCs unique selling point on this route is, apart from direct. WSRC did have the quality of service and the food in particular, but from what I understand the catering is better on East Coast.

The many times I've done this route all the way through, the patronage of said service has been appalling with only eleven passengers on one of the last London KX - Bradford INT services.

However I do believe this service makes a profit between Doncaster and London KX because it's non stop from Doncaster and so appeals to those commuting to the capital, but GC must be losing thousands having these five car sets heavily under occupied roaming around West Yorkshire.

I'm next traveling to London next Thursday and will be taking advantage of the £25 return deal so I'll report back with how busy the service is.

I really hope things pick up for GC because their staff are an absolute credit to the company.

 

[43167]

The many times I've done this route all the way through, the patronage of said service has been appalling with only eleven passengers on one of the last London KX - Bradford INT services.

However I do believe this service makes a profit between Doncaster and London KX because it's non stop from Doncaster and so appeals to those commuting to the capital, but GC must be losing thousands having these five car sets heavily under occupied roaming around West Yorkshire.

I'm next traveling to London next Thursday and will be taking advantage of the £25 return deal so I'll report back with how busy the service is.

I really hope things pick up for GC because their staff are an absolute credit to the company.

Im doing it tomorrow, so will also report back. The Sunderland loadings were poor to begin with, though bad reliabilty didnt help. Now they are doing very well.

Hopefully the West Yorkshire loadings will also improve.

 

[wbbminerals]

When I used GC last Sunday between Ponte and Halifax there were one or two fairly full carraiges, but most were empty.

 

[laird]

Last month I travelled on a Friday afternoon (1522 Bradford to Doncaster) the load wasn't great but certainly not insignificant. I didn't see crowds disembarking at Doncaster but perhaps a few more got on so perhaps it would at worst have broken even.
Friday evening toward London I guess might be a more popular service than other days of the week but it does make me wonder if some of the services are even more popular?

I guess traditionally we would have expected the Morning Southbound and Evening Northbound to be the popular services, certainly the morning Southbound is prohibited from the off peak tickets suggesting it could be lucrative?

What about the other services with three trips in each direction I guess some will be busier than others?

 

[142094]

I don't think GC release any figures on what part of the route makes the most money but of course it is probable that the main income is from York and Doncaster to the capital. As the flows on the other routes are much smaller, in effect they are subsidised by the York/Doncaster stops.

Guessing the route will be Hare Park Jcn as mentioned above, will certainly save a bit of time on that part. However last time I was on going from Kirkgate to Bradford, the train had a lot of dwell time at Brighouse and Halifax, and still arrived into Bradford early.

 

[colpepper]

It's still amazing GC don't run a direct Huddersfield train. A far larger population than Pontefract or Mirfield.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think GC release any figures on what part of the route makes the most money but of course it is probable that the main income is from York and Doncaster to the capital. As the flows on the other routes are much smaller, in effect they are subsidised by the York/Doncaster stops.

Guessing the route will be Hare Park Jcn as mentioned above, will certainly save a bit of time on that part. However last time I was on going from Kirkgate to Bradford, the train had a lot of dwell time at Brighouse and Halifax, and still arrived into Bradford early.

1. Should existing Doncaster/York flows be subsidising this service?
2. Since it takes over fifty minutes from Wakefield to Bradford (under fifteen miles, as the crow flies) I'd be annoyed if it arrived late!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's still amazing GC don't run a direct Huddersfield train. A far larger population than Pontefract or Mirfield.

Mirfield and Brighouse will serve a fair number of people in Kirklees.

To run to Huddersfield would either need to be a separate service (possibly instead of Bradford) or need to be a reversal of the Bradford service which would make it even slower (as it is it runs at around twenty miles an hour to cover the Wakefield - Bradford stretch - as the crow flies - adding on a ten/fifteen minute diversion into Huddersfield and back out again would mean it was quicker to walk!)

 

[142094]

1. Should existing Doncaster/York flows be subsidising this service?

Perhaps not, but those there would be little value running to the stations north of York or Doncaster. However it does give a valuable link to London to the stations served on the rest of the route. The business case for GC will rest of the ORCATS revenue. No ORCATS no GC.

2. Since it takes over fifty minutes from Wakefield to Bradford (under fifteen miles, as the crow flies) I'd be annoyed if it arrived late!

50 minutes Wakefield to Bradford is a joke. If that could be cut down by even half that time then I bet GC would have a lot more passengers. Far too easy to get the fast train from Forster Square and a short hop onto the KGX train.

 

[colpepper]

To run to Huddersfield would either need to be a separate service (possibly instead of Bradford) or need to be a reversal of the Bradford service which would make it even slower (as it is it runs at around twenty miles an hour to cover the Wakefield - Bradford stretch - as the crow flies - adding on a ten/fifteen minute diversion into Huddersfield and back out again would mean it was quicker to walk!)

Does the MML service to Sheffield not reverse at Nottm Midland? It just seems perverse that station like Mirfield and Brighouse have a direct London service when a station the size of Huddersfield with its immediate and surrounding population doesn't.

 

[MCR247]

No, they go via Derby. (apart from peak extensions of the Nottingham fasts)