Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[Bletchleyite]

That's great, an option offered for Swansea-Manchester. A buffet car is better than nothing. Thought the Mk4s were only limited to Cardiff-Holyhead once a day? Any chance of any Mk4s running on Cambrian services from Birmingham (I'd choose a Mk4 over a 197)?

No, 197s only on the Cambrian due to ETCS. I do still think it's a major shame a more InterCity like service offering (and hard product) wasn't considered for the Cambrian rather than keeping the "same old" Standard only DMU service, just with new DMUs. I'd not have used Mk4s (at all), I'd have ordered a fleet of something dedicated like FLIRTs.

Indeed, I think TfW have got their whole order a***-about-face, I'd have put 195s on local DMU services in South Wales and Class 231 FLIRTs on long distance!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

Have a similar photo, full and standing in all 11 carriages. Was declassified however, but standing in first, in all connecting vestibules and all carriages. Some standing for two hours plus after delays.

Noted one of their colleagues promising compensation on their Twitter for journeys having to be made standing over 15 minutes. I don't think it is genuine and probably just a delay repay in disguise!

It has been the case in the past for at least one IC TOC that if a seat reservation was made but not honoured and it was necessary to stand as a result (i.e. no other seat was available) you could get a partial refund. Unsurprisingly I can't find this on Avanti's website.

LNER on the other hand:

Our Seat Guarantee scheme | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

What is the Seat Guarantee scheme?​

Our seats are famously comfy. So it’s only natural to be cheesed off if you find none are available when you’ve gone to the trouble of booking one.
If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat, our Seat Guarantee scheme lets you claim a refund. Here’s how it works:

• If you had a one way ticket, we’ll compensate you 100% of the value
• If you had a return ticket, we’ll compensate you 50% of the value
• If you had a First Class ticket and the only seat available is in Standard, we’ll compensate you the difference between the fare you paid and the Standard equivalent

 

[Birmingham]

Indeed, but that argument could suggest that Avanti don’t need first class on Birmingham services as a lot of the stops are less than 30 mins apart! I agree to an extent - but I think the wider use of services must be considered.

When these services were run properly pre-covid there was about an hour non-stop between Coventry and Watford Junction or between Rugby and London Euston. And from the December 2022 timetable some services should be non-stop between Coventry and London Euston.

 

[Cowley]

I think it’d be good not to stray too much further from the thread subject from here, which is:

Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services​

Thanks everyone.

 

[Hadders]

It did make me wonder though- has there ever been an instance where a TM has refused to declassify first class but passengers have taken matters into their own hands?

I was on a very wedged VTEC service a few years back, following some disruption. Before we left Kings Cross the Train Manager made some very aggressive announcements about passengers holding standard class tickets needing to vacate 1st class. I would've moved if I could but it was standing all the way down 1st class as well as standard.

As the train pulled out the Train Manager, by now rather grumpy, announced that 1st class service was suspended until Stevenage. To be fair it looked like half the train got off at Stevenage.

 

[Huntergreed]

I’ll be on another pendolino later - and a 9 car. I’ll let you know how busy it is and the conditions surrounding first class entry but I’m dreading it already!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll be on another pendolino later - and a 9 car. I’ll let you know how busy it is and the conditions surrounding first class entry but I’m dreading it already!

Seriously, if it's heaving sit in SP. There is almost no chance you'll be charged if it's so full the guard couldn't get through. And if you are it's not horrendously expensive. I'd go for Coach G given the reports above of K being "reclassified" on some occasions.

 

[JamieL]

I was on Pendolino earlier- 1357 Euston to Glasgow service - Coach H was re-roled from Standard Premium to First but G remained SP. I was supposed to be sitting in Coach J but everyone got reallocated to H due to a football team embarking.

In fairness to Avanti, the trip ran more or less as advertised - no declassification nonsense and full food/drink service. It was late of course, but only by 10mins. Biggest grumble is that the journey time has been significantly extended. Its normally circa-4.5hrs but today was scheduled for 5.25hrs. Made it feel alot longer especially with extra lingering time at stations.

Decided to cancel my return journey with them Monday AM and will get the sleeper Sunday night instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on Pendolino earlier- 1357 Euston to Glasgow service - Coach H was re-roled from Standard Premium to First but G remained SP. I was supposed to be sitting in Coach J but everyone got reallocated to H due to a football team embarking.

So Avanti think 11 prima donnas getting a coach to themselves is more important than not leaving people behind at Euston? I get that they'll have booked it, but these are special times, were I Avanti I'd have booked them a road coach instead and given a refund, or invited them to occupy normal first class seats alongside the slightly-posh-hoi-polloi.

If you've got evidence (e.g. photos) of that rather than just hearsay I'd go to the Press with it.

 

[JamieL]

So Avanti think 11 prima donnas getting a coach to themselves is more important than not leaving people behind at Euston? I get that they'll have booked it, but these are special times, were I Avanti I'd have booked them a road coach instead and given a refund, or invited them to occupy normal first class seats alongside the slightly-posh-hoi-polloi.

If you've got evidence (e.g. photos) of that rather than just hearsay I'd go to the Press with it.

I saw it with my own eyes - the train made a special stop at Watford Junction to pick them up and the disembarked at Preston. It was the players and extras - there must have been about 20 of them - all wearing dark blue badged team clothing. I don't follow football though so can't tell you who!

I don't think anyone was left behind though. First passengers in Coach J were just shifted to the same seats in Coach H and there was then just one SP coach - so I guess the only people seen off was anyone who wanted to upgrade to SP but couldn't get a seat- I don't know if that happened as I didn't venture up that far!

 

[mmh]

That really depends on if the train is short formed or not. As a passenger paying for first class why should I have a nice journey ruined because a TOC can't be bothered to pay more to the ROSCO !

Why is your nice journey ruined because someone might be sitting in your carriage who paid less than you? That's been the case for many years - you have no idea what someone else paid and what ticket they hold.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is your nice journey ruined because someone might be sitting in your carriage who paid less than you? That's been the case for many years - you have no idea what someone else paid and what ticket they hold.

There has for years been an expectation built up that 1st means a table to yourself, because BR and successive TOCs have been awful at filling it up. That was never a right, and now people are moaning on realising it actually means you get one seat.

If that's really how people want it, it should be sold as a per bay upgrade to Standard. But as things are it isn't.

 

[Huntergreed]

By chance I got on an earlier service from Lancaster, and it just happened to be a (very quiet!) refurbalino!

Much more pleasant ride home and interesting to chat to some staff about their opinions on the new refurb! Shop staff are saying it’s made their life much more difficult!

 

[HarryF]

By chance I got on an earlier service from Lancaster, and it just happened to be a (very quiet!) refurbalino!

Much more pleasant ride home and interesting to chat to some staff about their opinions on the new refurb! Shop staff are saying it’s made their life much more difficult!

Interestingly I had a conversation last month with the shop staff about the refurbished units and they also said the refurbished units were harder to work than the unrefurbished ones so seems to be quite a lot of staff feeling like that

 

[m4tt]

Shop staff are saying it’s made their life much more difficult!

The first class hosts told me the aisles are slightly narrower making it hard to turn the food/drink trolley. I didn't notice it but I guess if that is your job you would pick up on subtle changes

 

[stuu]

Pre-covid I used to commute Taunton-Bristol. On a Friday this would normally mean the 1745 from Bristol which was always extremely cosy.

If a four car turned up, then it was absolutely horrendous.

I knew to stand at the very end of the platform to stand the best chance of getting a reasonable space (never a seat), which would mean being in the vestibule for first class more often than not.

Not once in 6 years of doing that was first class ever declassified

 

[Western Sunset]

I saw it with my own eyes - the train made a special stop at Watford Junction to pick them up and the disembarked at Preston. It was the players and extras - there must have been about 20 of them - all wearing dark blue badged team clothing. I don't follow football though so can't tell you who!

I don't think anyone was left behind though. First passengers in Coach J were just shifted to the same seats in Coach H and there was then just one SP coach - so I guess the only people seen off was anyone who wanted to upgrade to SP but couldn't get a seat- I don't know if that happened as I didn't venture up that far!

Would've been the Watford team, as they're playing at Preston this weekend.

 

[Falcon1200]

So Avanti think 11 prima donnas getting a coach to themselves is more important than not leaving people behind at Euston?

What a bizarre attitude - I take it you don't think much of footballers !! Why should such a group, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of other people ?

 

[185143]

What a bizarre attitude - I take it you don't think much of footballers !! Why should such a group, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of other people ?

Because the "other people" have also booked and paid their fares, are already on the train.

 

[Birmingham]

Why should such a group, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of other people ?

My emphasis…
“Why should other people, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of such a group?”

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a bizarre attitude - I take it you don't think much of footballers !! Why should such a group, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of other people ?

They shouldn't be denied travel. They could occupy seats on the same basis as everyone else, i.e. board and take what is available, or the railway could offer to arrange them a road coach if they preferred private travel. Obviously with a refund from what they paid down to what they got.

Avanti do not presently have the capacity to honour private coach bookings, unfortunately, other than on the Liverpool route which is the only one which has not suffered any cut.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Is the button on the microwave smaller? Should they push for a compensatory pay increase?

The layout looks awful to me. Again a missed opportunity for say a smaller counter and some standing bar tables, Italian style?

 

[class397tpe]

How are XC not managing to have everything at least 8-car when they're running half their normal service?

It's 3 things really.

1) The cancelled routes are shorter: Newcastle - Reading and Manchester - Bristol/Exeter Vs Edinburgh - Plymouth and Manchester- Bournemouth.
2) The utilisation of HSTs is very poor with only 2 in use per day.
3) They have reinstated certain services - e.g. a number of extras via Doncaster (some from Banbury), and some Manchester to Bristol services.

Unfortunately (other than the HST services) they seem to use the same random unit allocator as Northern and there appears to be no thought about what services get 4 car, 5 car or doubled up. Really, they should be trying to minimise single 4-car running and be trying to run a mix of single 5-cars and double 4-cars. But it just seems totally random.

Also, their basically complete suspension of advance tickets for the past few months and for the foreseeable future means they have no way to steer people towards the services which are planned to have more capacity - the double voyagers, and the HSTs.

We all know XC needs more rolling stock desperately, but this stuff is just pure incompetence. They really could manage what they currently have a lot better.

 

[Birmingham]

2) The utilisation of HSTs is very poor with only 2 in use per day.

What on earth is going on with the HSTs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What on earth is going on with the HSTs?

Cost?

 

[AlterEgo]

So Avanti think 11 prima donnas getting a coach to themselves is more important than not leaving people behind at Euston? I get that they'll have booked it, but these are special times, were I Avanti I'd have booked them a road coach instead and given a refund, or invited them to occupy normal first class seats alongside the slightly-posh-hoi-polloi.

If you've got evidence (e.g. photos) of that rather than just hearsay I'd go to the Press with it.

Problem is, football teams occupy a whole coach and pay very, very handsomely for the privilege and security of a dedicated area. If you shunt them onto a bus (which won't be a luxury team bus) they won't come back to the train again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem is, football teams occupy a whole coach and pay very, very handsomely for the privilege and security of a dedicated area. If you shunt them onto a bus (which won't be a luxury team bus) they won't come back to the train again.

That'll be why they did it, but they should take that hit now given their position. It's no different from declassifying 1st.

 

[AlterEgo]

That'll be why they did it, but they should take that hit now given their position. It's no different from declassifying 1st.

Materially, no, but the impact on the TOC is very heavy. Football teams are Avanti's best customers. It's extraordinarily lucrative and I can see why they'd rather turn away "ordinary" passengers even if that doesn't give the right optics.

 

[TheBigD]

Problem is, football teams occupy a whole coach and pay very, very handsomely for the privilege and security of a dedicated area. If you shunt them onto a bus (which won't be a luxury team bus) they won't come back to the train again.

Given the current position of railway finances it is entirely appropriate for Avanti to be going after this lucrative market.

 

[Steve Harris]

Why is your nice journey ruined because someone might be sitting in your carriage who paid less than you? That's been the case for many years - you have no idea what someone else paid and what ticket they hold.

Your missing the point completely.
I'm not talking about passengers paying less than me. I'm talking about TOC's actually having the correct numbers of coaches to carry the correct number of customers in the Class they have paid for.

Do keep up at the back there !!

 

[mmh]

Your missing the point completely !

What, is the point that first class shouldn't just be a bigger seat but also that the seat next to you is empty?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What, is the point that first class shouldn't just be a bigger seat but also that the seat next to you is empty?

People have certainly got used to that, but with a leisure oriented railway no longer willing to pay huge uplifts of 300% over even an Off Peak Return that is simply no longer economic. It needs higher occupancy or complete removal.

Seatfrog's existence is symptomatic of bad yield management / too much 1st, it isn't a viable business model for all of it.