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Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?

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Dai Corner

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I don't think anyone has. It smacks to me more of grumbling that a disabled person's friend can travel with a disabled person for free. The horror.

Why should somebody get free bus travel just because they happen to have a disabled mate who could travel alone and has the time on his hands to facilitate free travel for able-bodied friends?

Indeed, but that is still assistance. Which IME isn't always forthcoming, more so on the railways these days to be fair, but certainly my experience in the past is that it was surprising how many bus ramps were "broken" or the driver "had a bad back" or the bus was "full".
Did you complain to the operator? What was the outcome?
It seems a lot of work to have designated companions, all to clamp down on an "abuse" which is self-limiting anyway. Unlike with blue badge abuse, the disabled person actually has to travel.
I haven't advocated that. I have advocated limiting companion passes to those who can't travel alone.
 
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AM9

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OK, what will that cost in additional admin and how much will be saved. Figures please.
Not only is means testing expensive in the first place, it would also need to be regularly updated because senioors citizens' personal circumstances do change from time to time. Consider the total cost of such a 'cost saving' measure before justifying an expensive administration machine just to satisfy a jealous minority.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Not only is means testing expensive in the first place, it would also need to be regularly updated because senioors citizens' personal circumstances do change from time to time. Consider the total cost of such a 'cost saving' measure before justifying an expensive administration machine just to satisfy a jealous minority.
Each year that passes, a new tranche of entitled people qualify for the pass, having reached the qualifying age requirements.
 

Dai Corner

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Each year that passes, a new tranche of entitled people qualify for the pass, having reached the qualifying age requirements.
I think the use of age-based passes is mainly 'self means-tested'. People often don't apply if they're not going to use them, and don't use them if they can afford alternatives.

I had in mind issuing passes to people of working age who are receiving certain benefits.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Even if the "companion" is a random person they recruit at the bus stop offering free travel to?

Anyone in the position to do that shouldn't have a pass. If they do the means testing is not working properly.

To add, if anyone is doing that for money and it is proven, they should lose their pass.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think the use of age-based passes are mainly 'self means-tested'. People often don't apply if they're not going to use them, and don't use them if they can afford alternatives.
Are there statistics available that will show the percentage of ENCTS pass recipients of the qualifying age that are still working?

I feel that seperate threads should run for the standard ENCTS passholders and the Disabled passholders as they are distinctly dissimilar.
 

Dai Corner

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Are there statistics available that will show the percentage of ENCTS pass recipients of the qualifying age that are still working?

Probably not, but is a passholder working part time for minimum wage more or less entitled to it than one receiving a pension several times as much?
I feel that seperate threads should run for the standard ENCTS passholders and the Disabled passholders as they are distinctly dissimilar.
Quite possibly. Our esteemed moderator may wish to split the thread.
 

GusB

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The rules for companion travel in Scotland are as follows:


If you need to travel with a companion, they're entitled to travel for free if your National Entitlement Card has the Companion Travel logo on it. You need to present extra information when you apply for your card.

To qualify, you must meet one of the following criteria.

You live in a care/residential home or hospital and are eligible for:

  • the higher or middle rate of the care component of Disability Living Allowance
  • the standard or enhanced rate of daily living component of Personal Independence Payment
  • Attendance Allowance
  • the higher or middle rate of the care component of Child Disability Payment
  • Pension Age Disability Payment
  • the standard or enhanced rate of the daily living component of Adult Disability Payment
You do not live in a care/residential home or hospital and:

  • get the higher or middle rate of the care component of Disability Living Allowance
  • get the standard or enhanced rate of daily living component of Personal Independence Payment
  • get Attendance Allowance
  • get the higher or middle rate of the care component of Child Disability Payment
  • get Pension Age Disability Payment
  • get the standard or enhanced rate of the daily living component of Adult Disability Payment
  • are severely sight impaired (blind)
  • get a war pensions constant attendance allowance
Visit the Transport Scotland website for more information.

Cards which have companion entitlement carry a "+1" symbol to make them identifiable.

I can see some merit in having specific named individuals on the card, but it puts unnecessary restrictions on the pass holder (ie they can't travel at all) if those named individuals were unavailable on the day.

Anyone who is in receipt of any of the above-mentioned benefits has already been made to jump through several hoops without having to go through an additional assessment to get a bus pass. Is there abuse in the system? No doubt. Is it actually a big problem in the grand scheme of things? I'm not so sure. It's not down to us, nor the bus company to police it; suspected abuse of the service should be reported to the pass issuer, and if they the feel that there's activity that warrants investigation they should decide on the appropriate action and whether it's worth doing so.

I do have one question, though - do bus companies get reimbursed twice for someone carrying a companion card? If yes, then I can see that abusing companion entitlement could become quite costly (or extra income for the bus company); if not, what's the point of trying to enforce it?
 
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Taunton

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One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.
I suspect this is more to do with arriving punctually for the 09.30 medical appointment to find a whole waiting room full of others who have been given the same time, and finally being seen at 11.45.
 

Tetchytyke

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I have advocated limiting companion passes to those who can't travel alone.

There's been several comments up thread about restricting passes to a designated companion, it wasn't a comment directed at you rather the thread as a whole.

People who get the companion element receive certain benefits, the main eligibility for which is they require support or supervision- this may be for physical or mental reasons.

This isn’t strictly true. There are other aspects to the mobility component besides this.

True, I was trying to keep things simple. The PIP descriptors for the mobility refer to movement (walking aided or unaided) and separately the ability to plan a journey and travel safely.

It seems my understanding of the eligibility for the companion card was slightly mistaken, @GusB helpfully shows it is based on the care/daily living component of PIP whereas I thought it was based on the mobility component. Happy to be corrected.
 

Tetchytyke

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Did you complain to the operator? What was the outcome?

I'm not disabled but I was accompanying friends/family who use wheelchairs. Not my complaint to make, I generally just helped to lift the chair on/off the bus when it happened.

More generally, complaints my friend has made have largely been fobbed off, "lessons learned", "additional training", etc. The same thing we see with complaints about assisted travel on the railways.
 

Eyersey468

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I don't think anyone's said whether or not the York lad was a wheelchair user.

I've seen a number of (powered) wheelchair users travel on buses alone. The only assistance they required was the driver deploying the ramp, which is part of the job.
No the York lad wasn't a wheelchair user

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't think anyone has. It smacks to me more of grumbling that a disabled person's friend can travel with a disabled person for free. The horror.
I have no issue with someone who needs a companion having one, what I along with my colleagues objected to was the way he was using his pass solely to get his mates free rides in and out of York
 

Starmill

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In healthcare, if a person is registered with a GP practice in England and receives significant treatment somewhere else, there is a mechanism for reallocating those costs. For example someone if who lives and works in Newcastle goes on holiday to Cornwall and breaks their leg slipping on some stairs, requiring surgery and a few weeks in hospital. I don't know what the effects would be for people going to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland though.
 

Dai Corner

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In healthcare, if a person is registered with a GP practice in England and receives significant treatment somewhere else, there is a mechanism for reallocating those costs. For example someone if who lives and works in Newcastle goes on holiday to Cornwall and breaks their leg slipping on some stairs, requiring surgery and a few weeks in hospital. I don't know what the effects would be for people going to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland though.
I believe it operates at least UK-wide and when we were in the EU throughout that Union. I remember there was some controversy surrounding reports that our NHS weren't bothering to charge other countries for work they did.

In the context of this thread, are you advocating that ENCTS reimbursements should be paid by the local authority in which the passholder resides regardless of where they made their journey? How does affect whether they're 'freeloaders' or not?
 

Starmill

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I believe it operates at least UK-wide and when we were in the EU throughout that Union. I remember there was some controversy surrounding reports that our NHS weren't bothering to charge other countries for work they did.

In the context of this thread, are you advocating that ENCTS reimbursements should be paid by the local authority in which the passholder resides regardless of where they made their journey? How does affect whether they're 'freeloaders' or not?
I wasn't expressing a clear view either way on the right way to fund reduced rate or free travel because I don't know what the sums involved are or the scale is like. I was just pointing out that it would be possible to "return" charges to where someone lives if there were a view that this would better balance the costs of the scheme.

As to "freeloaders" I certainly don't agree. My view is that we live in a rules-based society and we should all respect the entitlements and obligations which flow from those rules. As a result if one is entitled to something then one has the right to use it or claim it within those rules however they like, and to expect that everyone else will respect their right to do so. By all means one could argue that the system isn't working and should be changed e.g. by cutting back on entitlements, though that's not an argument I'd agree with either. However one can't make it personal by calling someone a "freeloader" purely for following the rules.

The only freeloaders are those who are breaking the rules, e.g. tax evaders.
 

Russel

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OK, what will that cost in additional admin and how much will be saved. Figures please.

How would I know?

I'm simply stating it's not right that it's not right that the tax payer should be funding free travel for people who have the means to pay for it themselves.
 

Dai Corner

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How would I know?

I'm simply stating it's not right that it's not right that the tax payer should be funding free travel for people who have the means to pay for it themselves.
How about 'free' healthcare or education?
 

Starmill

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Why should somebody get free bus travel just because they happen to have a disabled mate who could travel alone and has the time on his hands to facilitate free travel for able-bodied friends?
I think that this is one occasion where it is better to accept the very tiny additional costs for people who don't need it than to risk denying people who do need it. It has got to be an extremely niche thing.
 

Gloster

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As someone who lives in an area with a large number of pensioners, including many who are well enough off to have moved to the area, and which also has a lot of elderly visitors, there is a sub-species of ENCTS card holder who believe that it gives them special rights, not just free travel. Jumping the queue, hogging a second seat with their shopping when the bus is busy, blocking the aisle with their trolleys, extra politeness from the driver, etc. It is only a minority, but they do not set a good example to the young. Nowhere else have I seen a woman who had a habit of using her large ‘bag for life’ to shove small children and guide-dogs out of the way so she could get on first.
 

Dai Corner

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I think that this is one occasion where it is better to accept the very tiny additional costs for people who don't need it than to risk denying people who do need it. It has got to be an extremely niche thing.
Or only allow companion travel to passholders who cannot travel alone, as a previous poster indicated happens in Scotland.
 

GusB

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As someone who lives in an area with a large number of pensioners, including many who are well enough off to have moved to the area, and which also has a lot of elderly visitors, there is a sub-species of ENCTS card holder who believe that it gives them special rights, not just free travel. Jumping the queue, hogging a second seat with their shopping when the bus is busy, blocking the aisle with their trolleys, extra politeness from the driver, etc. It is only a minority, but they do not set a good example to the young. Nowhere else have I seen a woman who had a habit of using her large ‘bag for life’ to shove small children and guide-dogs out of the way so she could get on first.
Unfortunately that's just human nature. I'd guess that most people are just happy with the ability to use their pass and get on with life, but there always be some people who think that they're a cut above everyone else, and this by no means restricted to the world of concessionary travel. As someone who has worked in customer service positions for most of my working life, I've seen more than my fair share of entitled individuals!

As long as the passes are being used within the letter of the rules there's not much that can be done unless it can be proved that they're being used fraudulently. Tightening up the rules makes it harder for those with a genuine need. I've never been afraid to put the likes of the bag-for-life lady in their place. Shoving someone out of the way is simply bad manners, and needs to be called out. If it was the small child who did the shoving there would (rightfully) be much tutting and complaining about bad parenting etc.; why is it acceptable simply because it comes from an older person? I think people are often too scared to say anything out of "respect for the elderly", which should be earned rather than just expected.
 

Deerfold

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Being able to take any companion of her choice without any pre-nomination requirement is exactly how I think the system should work.

But you also advocate it should only be available to people incapable of travelling alone - she was capable of some journeys alone, but not others.
 

SLC001

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I have to comment. Retired, I have the means to pay for my travel. The reason for this is that I have worked hard, given up many luxuries and deliberately saved for my retirement. I know (as a former financial adviser) that many people have simply not bothered to save for their retirement choosing to enjoy life, spend their money on other things. Live for the present. Retirement planning has never been at the top of their priority list even though they could easily afford to save. Fine, that is their choice but they should now accept the consequences of their actions. I am damned if I should loose a right or benefit through my prudence and forward thinking so that others who didn't plan or simply could not be bothered can benefit at my expense. Means testing is totally unacceptable and if people really need help due to age or infirmity then, like education or the NHS, it should be properly funded through general taxation and not a specific tax on people like myself. Incidentally, I am not an advocate of tax cutting and recognise that if we want a decent society we all need to pay more taxes noting that even pensioners like me pay taxes too.
 

Starmill

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Or only allow companion travel to passholders who cannot travel alone, as a previous poster indicated happens in Scotland.
I don't think that's quite correct as Concession plus Companion card holders in Scotland can and do travel alone.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I have to comment. Retired, I have the means to pay for my travel. The reason for this is that I have worked hard, given up many luxuries and deliberately saved for my retirement. I know (as a former financial adviser) that many people have simply not bothered to save for their retirement choosing to enjoy life, spend their money on other things. Live for the present. Retirement planning has never been at the top of their priority list even though they could easily afford to save. Fine, that is their choice but they should now accept the consequences of their actions. I am damned if I should loose a right or benefit through my prudence and forward thinking so that others who didn't plan or simply could not be bothered can benefit at my expense. Means testing is totally unacceptable and if people really need help due to age or infirmity then, like education or the NHS, it should be properly funded through general taxation and not a specific tax on people like myself. Incidentally, I am not an advocate of tax cutting and recognise that if we want a decent society we all need to pay more taxes noting that even pensioners like me pay taxes too.
I sense that a kindred spirit inhabits this website.
 

Dai Corner

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But you also advocate it should only be available to people incapable of travelling alone - she was capable of some journeys alone, but not others.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't think that's quite correct as Concession plus Companion card holders in Scotland can and do travel alone.
Unable to travel alone at all then.
 

Baxenden Bank

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In healthcare, if a person is registered with a GP practice in England and receives significant treatment somewhere else, there is a mechanism for reallocating those costs. For example someone if who lives and works in Newcastle goes on holiday to Cornwall and breaks their leg slipping on some stairs, requiring surgery and a few weeks in hospital. I don't know what the effects would be for people going to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland though.
Something similar applies to ENCTS. For example popular tourist areas are re-imbursed by a levy on local authorities where those tourists come from. Or that was the situation. Whether that re-imbursement reflects the costs is another thing. With smart passes it ought to be able to easily identify who is using their pass where and pass back the cost of travel. You could, like the delay allocaters in the rail industry, build quite a bureaucracy around such arrangements.
 

duncanp

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I have to comment. Retired, I have the means to pay for my travel. The reason for this is that I have worked hard, given up many luxuries and deliberately saved for my retirement. I know (as a former financial adviser) that many people have simply not bothered to save for their retirement choosing to enjoy life, spend their money on other things. Live for the present. Retirement planning has never been at the top of their priority list even though they could easily afford to save. Fine, that is their choice but they should now accept the consequences of their actions. I am damned if I should loose a right or benefit through my prudence and forward thinking so that others who didn't plan or simply could not be bothered can benefit at my expense. Means testing is totally unacceptable and if people really need help due to age or infirmity then, like education or the NHS, it should be properly funded through general taxation and not a specific tax on people like myself. Incidentally, I am not an advocate of tax cutting and recognise that if we want a decent society we all need to pay more taxes noting that even pensioners like me pay taxes too.

Hear Hear !!

I have a similar situation paying for my mother's stay in a nursing home at the moment.

Not only do we have to pay the full fee without any assistance, but that fee is inflated to subsidise residents whose care is 100% paid for by the local authority. In others words, we pay more than the going rate so that the local authority can get away with paying less than the going rate. <(<(
 
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