Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?

[Eyersey468]

In Hull, I remember an East Yorkshire bus driver saying that for operational reasons, (I am assuming to help cut down on scenarios like you've stated above regarding holding the bus up) the ticket machines are set up to accept passes 5 minutes before 9:30. In reality, this is only usually an issue if an East Riding pass holder attempts to use their pass before 9:30 or any other out of area pass holders, since Hull pass holders have no time restrictions for journeys that start within the city boundary.

In my home county of North Lincolnshire, it is the same in allowing unrestricted pass usage as long as the journey starts within the county boundaries.

And regarding what one person said about being surprised at operators not asking a pass holder to state their destination, Scunthorpe based Hornsbys have that policy, I posted a thread about it a while back. But even on Stagecoach buses, elderly people usually state their destination as they place their passes on the ticket machine.

It is true that EY ticket machines are programmed to accept passes from 0925, this is so that a bus that is due away at 0930 can load up before, if the bus is due somewhere at 0927 say the pass holder is meant to pay to the 0930 point. To be honest when I was on local I would try to get there for 0930 to avoid the arguments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stating destination or not will relate to how reimbursement is done in that area. If it's based on the single fare, as it is in some places, you need to know what that is.

 

[duncanp]

Maybe moving the 0930 start to 1000 across the country (England) may help and extra 30 minutes worth of income may just scrape in enough to keep the route going, obviously Wales and Scotland excepted as they'd do their own thing.



Just wait until October, I think the whingeing will increse especially when certain services are cut which will lead to passholders complaining that the 0930 into town has been cut and they're now expected to take the 1005 instead as the one before departs at 0900 and they have to pay.

I really don't think that moving the start time to 10:00 is going to bring in a lot a revenue.

The only extra income it will bring in is from those who currently travel for free at 09:30 who have to get on the bus at that time, eg. to get to a hospital appointment.

The majority of passholders whose travel is discretionary will just wait until 10:00. Indeed it might lead to some people not travelling altogether because if you can't get on the bus (for free) until 10:00 then you have lost most of the morning by the time you get to your destination, especially if it is a long way away.

The current legislation allows for local authorities to designate a bus service that runs before 09:30 as "off peak", and thus available to passholders, if waiting for the first bus after 09:30 would cause unecessary hardship or inconvenience.

This particularly affects rural services that may only run once or twice a day, and where there are good reasons for the service having to run before 09:30 (eg. to connect with another bus or a train, or a bus that has jsut finished a school run, and is returning in service to the garage)

I don't. So if we look at my parents once they aren't fit to go out alone - it could be me, it could be my sister, it could be her other half, or it could be their older son. Restricting it to one person would be prohibitive.

My views on the Two Together Railcard are probably already known (I don't support its existence - it is a bad excuse not to have a proper National Railcard for adults, and doesn't provide the flexibility of a car where you can give anyone a lift if you wish).

I see the point about restricting it to one person being prohibitive. I suppose it depends whether abuse of the companion pass scheme is widespread as to whether it is worth doing anything about it.

I agree that there should be one National Railcard that everyone is entitled to, and which gets people the same discounts as a Senior Railcard. It is one way of attracting people back to the railways post COVID.

 

[Bayum]

A companion pass should be for just one nominated person, with the intention that the companion provides assistance to the disabled or elderly person whilst they are making a journey. The conditions should be similar to the Two Together railcard, where both persons must be travelling together for the pass to be valid.

If said ENCTS holder had a permanent carer attached to them this might work. If they have someone different supporting them regularly or it is a different family member who has been able to take the day off work that day it becomes trickier. I think there needs to be that flexibility available.

 

[Eyersey468]

If said ENCTS holder had a permanent carer attached to them this might work. If they have someone different supporting them regularly or it is a different family member who has been able to take the day off work that day it becomes trickier. I think there needs to be that flexibility available.

I take the point about flexibility but feel there does need to be something in place to try to stop people like the lad I was saying about, the companion scheme isn't for him to get his mates free rides.

 

[duncanp]

If said ENCTS holder had a permanent carer attached to them this might work. If they have someone different supporting them regularly or it is a different family member who has been able to take the day off work that day it becomes trickier. I think there needs to be that flexibility available.

If the family member accompanying the disabled or elderly person has a reasonable income, then I would question whether there is any need for them to travel for free.

But perhaps a compromise would be that a disabled or elderly person can nominate two people who can receive companion cards, who can then travel for free when travelling as a companion to the disabled or elderly person.

Anyone else accompanying them could travel for the relevant child fare, or a flat fare.

 

[Dai Corner]

If the family member accompanying the disabled or elderly person has a reasonable income, then I would question whether there is any need for them to travel for free.

But perhaps a compromise would be that a disabled or elderly person can nominate two people who can receive companion cards, who can then travel for free when travelling as a companion to the disabled or elderly person.

Anyone else accompanying them could travel for the relevant child fare, or a flat fare.

Perhaps a distinction needs to be drawn between the disabled passholders who are capable of travelling alone and those who are not? The York lad mentioned above presumably travelled alone in one direction so doesn't need a companion pass. Another disabled passholder with a different condition might be completely unable to use a bus alone so would get a companion pass.

A little more bureaucracy would be required, but there's plenty of that involved in claiming disability benefits and passes anyway.

 

[Eyersey468]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be drawn between the disabled passholders who are capable of travelling alone and those who are not? The York lad mentioned above presumably travelled alone in one direction so doesn't need a companion pass. Another disabled passholder with a different condition might be completely unable to use a bus alone so would get a companion pass.

A little more bureaucracy would be required, but there's plenty of that involved in claiming disability benefits and passes anyway.

Yes he travelled alone in one direction then got his mate a free ride in the other direction. Maybe a compromise would be to say a limited number of people can be nominated to be companions BUT one of these people has to be travelling with the passholder the full length of each journey for the pass to be valid. I think the York lad moved a while ago as no one has seen him for years

 

[duncanp]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be drawn between the disabled passholders who are capable of travelling alone and those who are not? The York lad mentioned above presumably travelled alone in one direction so doesn't need a companion pass. Another disabled passholder with a different condition might be completely unable to use a bus alone so would get a companion pass.

A little more bureaucracy would be required, but there's plenty of that involved in claiming disability benefits and passes anyway.

I agree.

I can travel alone using my ENCTS pass, but I accept that there are others who can't do so.

When you apply for a pass the first time, or when it is renewed, there should be a box a tick to say whether you require a companion.

If you tick that box, then you should get supporting evidence from a medical professional such as your GP, which could then be sent in with the application form.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be drawn between the disabled passholders who are capable of travelling alone and those who are not? The York lad mentioned above presumably travelled alone in one direction so doesn't need a companion pass. Another disabled passholder with a different condition might be completely unable to use a bus alone so would get a companion pass.

A little more bureaucracy would be required, but there's plenty of that involved in claiming disability benefits and passes anyway.

Well, that is the whole point of the companion pass. If the disabled passholder is capable of travelling alone, then they don't need one, and it should be restricted to say one nominated person rather than some Netflix style code shared amongst several people.

The irony is that the ENCTS market is the area with the biggest drop off in passenger figures since Mar 2020.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well, that is the whole point of the companion pass. If the disabled passholder is capable of travelling alone, then they don't need one, and it should be restricted to say one nominated person rather than some Netflix style code shared amongst several people.

The irony is that the ENCTS market is the area with the biggest drop off in passenger figures since Mar 2020.

I'm not sure restricting the companion pass to one nominated individual is a good idea. That one person might not be available every time the disabled passholder wants to travel and I see no harm in allowing different friends, relatives etc to accompany him/her.

 

[Tetchytyke]

feel there does need to be something in place to try to stop people like the lad I was saying about

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see the issue with this sort of thing. The companion can't travel without the disabled person, and only one companion can travel at once.

If a disabled person and a friend are travelling at the same time in the same direction then this will inevitably happen, but it's hardly a large-scale issue unless the disabled person has an overwhelming urge to ride backwards and forwards on buses all day to save their mate two quid. The disabled person having to be there prevents more widespread abuse.

It's worth pointing out that the mobility component of PIP is only paid to people who are unable to travel without assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be drawn between the disabled passholders who are capable of travelling alone and those who are not? The York lad mentioned above presumably travelled alone in one direction so doesn't need a companion pass. Another disabled passholder with a different condition might be completely unable to use a bus alone so would get a companion pass.

A little more bureaucracy would be required, but there's plenty of that involved in claiming disability benefits and passes anyway.

That I think is the real answer. People shouldn't be in a position to abuse the facility - if they would be able to travel alone they should not have it.

 

[Gloster]

I don’t know how the system works, but could you have a prominent code on the disabled person’s card (for example, AB1234). Those who are allowed to travel with him or her have a card clearly marked AB1234 as well. The cards should have some clear differentiation between, say one has a green background and the other red.

There have been times when I have seen people accompanying disabled holders and getting the feeling that the purpose seems to allow the accompanier to do their shopping, or worse. I will say this seems to be family rather than council employees.

Old habits die hard. Despite it not being necessary, we have those who clearly state their destination, even though they may not understand why they don’t need to. It is not needed here as they haven’t devised a submarine bus.

 

[Eyersey468]

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see the issue with this sort of thing. The companion can't travel without the disabled person, and only one companion can travel at once.

If a disabled person and a friend are travelling at the same time in the same direction then this will inevitably happen, but it's hardly a large-scale issue unless the disabled person has an overwhelming urge to ride backwards and forwards on buses all day to save their mate two quid. The disabled person having to be there prevents more widespread abuse.

It's worth pointing out that the mobility component of PIP is only paid to people who are unable to travel without assistance.

It wasn't just the occasional time though he did it a lot and over the course of a year the money adds up, while it's a bit extra revenue for the bus company potentially it means other things could have to be cut back on to pay for it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People shouldn't be in a position to abuse the facility - if they would be able to travel alone they should not have it.

The main eligibility criterion for the disabled pass is receiving the mobility component of PIP. You can't get this benefit if you are able to travel alone without assistance.

It wasn't just the occasional time though he did it a lot and over the course of a year the money adds up

I'm sure he did correlate his travel with that of a friend for their mutual benefit, but the point stands that the friend can't travel without him. Any "abuse" is therefore self-limiting unless the lad wants to spend his life riding around on buses for the benefit of other people.

 

[Dai Corner]

The main eligibility criterion for the disabled pass is receiving the mobility component of PIP. You can't get this benefit if you are able to travel alone without assistance

If that's the case, the York lad shouldn't have had a disabled pass as he frequently demonstrated that he could travel alone. But perhaps he qualified on a different criterion, such as being barred from driving by a medical condition, which would make what he did more like giving his mates a lift

 

[Deerfold]

If that's the case, the York lad shouldn't have had a disabled pass as he frequently demonstrated that he could travel alone. But perhaps he qualified on a different criterion, such as being barred from driving by a medical condition, which would make what he did more like giving his mates a lift

My wife's grandmother had a companion pass due to being blind. She was perfectly capable of getting to her nearest town and her usual shops by herself. However, if she was going any further she needed someone to accompany her - me, my wife or one of her other granchildren.

 

[Dai Corner]

My wife's grandmother had a companion pass due to being blind. She was perfectly capable of getting to her nearest town and her usual shops by herself. However, if she was going any further she needed someone to accompany her - me, my wife or one of her other granchildren.

Being able to take any companion of her choice without any pre-nomination requirement is exactly how I think the system should work.

 

[Flying Snail]

Being able to take any companion of her choice without any pre-nomination requirement is exactly how I think the system should work.

Even if the "companion" is a random person they recruit at the bus stop offering free travel to?

 

[Dai Corner]

Even if the "companion" is a random person they recruit at the bus stop offering free travel to?

See my earlier post where I advocate only allowing disabled people who are incapable of travelling alone to take a companion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I fully support the ENCTS scheme, I think the principle of it is excellent, however, they do seem to be given out like sweets so I think a review is needed, both the OAP and Disability parts of the scheme should be means tested.

When the ENCTS pass scheme was in its preliminary discussion stages, was means testing ever entered into in relation to the granting of such passes?

 

[Dai Corner]

When the ENCTS pass scheme was in its preliminary discussion stages, was means testing ever entered into in relation to the granting of such passes?

Don't know. But I can see the sense in means-testing instead of age-testing. I imagine it would be very expensive though, as I suspect a large number of paying bus passengers would qualify.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my view the government tried to do it on the cheap and didn't consider how much it would cost, then when they found it cost too much their solution seemed to simply be to cut and cut what the bus operators get, but if the funding gets cut too much there will come a tipping point when swathes of services get cut because they can't pay any more.

Which Government was in power when the ENCTS pass was first introduced?

 

[Dai Corner]

Which Government was in power when the ENCTS pass was first introduced?

Gordon Brown's I think.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If that's the case, the York lad shouldn't have had a disabled pass as he frequently demonstrated that he could travel alone.

It depends how you wish to define people who use wheelchairs, really. PIP is based on their ability to move unaided.

Wheelchair users aren't really able to travel without assistance for obvious reasons, not least being unable to even board a bus without the assistance of the driver and/or a companion. But clearly many are otherwise cognitively able to travel independently.

 

[PeterC]

I fully support the ENCTS scheme, I think the principle of it is excellent, however, they do seem to be given out like sweets so I think a review is needed, both the OAP and Disability parts of the scheme should be means tested.

OK, what will that cost in additional admin and how much will be saved. Figures please.

 

[Dai Corner]

It depends how you wish to define people who use wheelchairs, really. PIP is based on their ability to move unaided.

Wheelchair users aren't really able to travel without assistance for obvious reasons, not least being unable to even board a bus without the assistance of the driver and/or a companion. But clearly many are otherwise cognitively able to travel independently.

I don't think anyone's said whether or not the York lad was a wheelchair user.

I've seen a number of (powered) wheelchair users travel on buses alone. The only assistance they required was the driver deploying the ramp, which is part of the job.

 

[Wychwood93]

The Wikipedia entry for the ENCTS:

English National Concessionary Travel Scheme - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think anyone's said whether or not the York lad was a wheelchair user.

I don't think anyone has. It smacks to me more of grumbling that a disabled person's friend can travel with a disabled person for free. The horror.

The only assistance they required was the driver deploying the ramp, which is part of the job.

Indeed, but that is still assistance. Which IME isn't always forthcoming, more so on the railways these days to be fair, but certainly my experience in the past is that it was surprising how many bus ramps were "broken" or the driver "had a bad back" or the bus was "full".

It seems a lot of work to have designated companions, all to clamp down on an "abuse" which is self-limiting anyway. Unlike with blue badge abuse, the disabled person actually has to travel.

I don't doubt abuse takes place, with random people sometimes being the companion, but disabled ENCTS numbers are low (from memory just under 10% of ENCTS passes are for disabled people). It's one of those things where rules to prevent "abuse" cost more than the actual abuse does.