Digital railcard not usable on expiry date

[BigCj34]

I decided to travel on was supposed to be the last usable day of my 26-30 railcard last week, and I was unable to renew it because of my age. However when I pulled open the app it said it had expired. I raised this with the train guards before I boarded the train and they did not have an issue, but when I contacted Railcard customer services they responded:

Thanks for taking the time to email us. I was sorry to learn that you were unable to use your 26-30 Railcard on the last date of its expiry.

I would like to advise that Railcards are valid until midnight of the expiry date, since your Railcard expired on Monday, 08 August 2022 technically it expires on Sunday, 07 August 2022 after midnight as the system captures the next day.

Therefore, you were unable to use it on Monday, 08 August 2022.

Thanks again for contacting us. I trust this information clarifies the situation, and you have a lovely day.

Please do let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

The website for 26-30 railcards explicitly states that the railcard is still valid on the date of expiry, and surely would not have been an issue if it was a physical cars. I purchased a card from 9 August last year which should have been valid until 23:59 on 8 August this year, but actually it turns out was valid only to 23:59 on 7 August, which is then not a year's validity. Also any expiry date should mean "up to and including".

It is quite a contradictory response and contradicts information on their own website. Thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Don't buy digital Railcards unless it's a 26-30 (as these are not sold as physical cards). They are not fit for purpose, this is but one of those ways.

 

[miklcct]

I decided to travel on was supposed to be the last usable day of my 26-30 railcard last week, and I was unable to renew it because of my age. However when I pulled open the app it said it had expired. I raised this with the train guards before I boarded the train and they did not have an issue, but when I contacted Railcard customer services they responded:

Thanks for taking the time to email us. I was sorry to learn that you were unable to use your 26-30 Railcard on the last date of its expiry.

I would like to advise that Railcards are valid until midnight of the expiry date, since your Railcard expired on Monday, 08 August 2022 technically it expires on Sunday, 07 August 2022 after midnight as the system captures the next day.

Therefore, you were unable to use it on Monday, 08 August 2022.

Thanks again for contacting us. I trust this information clarifies the situation, and you have a lovely day.

Please do let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

The website for 26-30 railcards explicitly states that the railcard is still valid on the date of expiry, and surely would not have been an issue if it was a physical cars. I purchased a card from 9 August last year which should have been valid until 23:59 on 8 August this year, but actually it turns out was valid only to 23:59 on 7 August, which is then not a year's validity. Also any expiry date should mean "up to and including".

It is quite a contradictory response and contradicts information on their own website. Thoughts?

In this case it's clearly a breach of contract. If you get any penalty fares because of this and fail the appeal, you should pay the penalty fares and sue the rail delivery group for damages.

 

[Hadders]

What staggering incompetence. A railcard that expires on 8th August is actually valid until 04:29 on 9th August.

How can they get something so simple so wrong.

 

[Furrball]

Well given that it has not been possible to renew a railcard online for oh about 4 months should give an idea!!

 

[Ediswan]

Thanks for taking the time to email us. I was sorry to learn that you were unable to use your 26-30 Railcard on the last date of its expiry.

I would like to advise that Railcards are valid until midnight of the expiry date, since your Railcard expired on Monday, 08 August 2022 technically it expires on Sunday, 07 August 2022 after midnight as the system captures the next day.

Best quality gibberish. If I read correctly, the guard was happy to accept the card on the 8th.

 

[XAM2175]

What staggering incompetence. A railcard that expires on 8th August is actually valid until 04:29 on 9th August.

How can they get something so simple so wrong.

It's genuinely pathetic.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not the first time I've heard that explanation used for a midnight expiry, I think the problem is it should expire at 2359 XX/XX the last minute of that day as 0000 XX/XX is the first minute of the day.

 

[BigCj34]

Best quality gibberish. If I read correctly, the guard was happy to accept the card on the 8th.

Yes thankfully he showed some common sense, though thought it would be best to give them a heads up. The next person may not be so lucky with a ticket inspector.

Interesting that it should last until 0429 the following day, is there anywhere that says that? Or is that assumed because a 'ticket day' is up until 0429?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==

In this case it's clearly a breach of contract. If you get any penalty fares because of this and fail the appeal, you should pay the penalty fares and sue the rail delivery group for damages.

It means it wasn't actually valid for a year which I purchased, for starters...

 

[XAM2175]

Not the first time I've heard that explanation used for a midnight expiry, I think the problem is it should expire at 2359 XX/XX the last minute of that day as 0000 XX/XX is the first minute of the day.

Yes, it would be resolved by carrying the expiry date as a datetime field and specifying the time portion as 23:59:59 on the date of expiry - or even something as cack-handed as setting the expiry date to be one day greater than it actually should be and then subtracting that extra day from the date shown to the user!

The fact that it wasn't caught in testing (or worse, was ignored) and persists to this day is ludicrous.

 

[43096]

Not the first time I've heard that explanation used for a midnight expiry, I think the problem is it should expire at 2359 XX/XX the last minute of that day as 0000 XX/XX is the first minute of the day.

Should it not expire at 04:00 the next day, like tickets do?

 

[RPI]

I witnessed this for the first time the other day, a girl showed her ticket then when asked for her railcard sheepishly showed me an "expired" digital 16-17 saver, upon closer inspection it was for that very date, I explained this to her and endorsed her ticket so she didn't have to worry the whole day.

I've since passed this on to my TOC's head of retail to follow up and issue a staff brief!

 

[Adam Williams]

This to me is the only official information I can find on an RDG site, and the way I read it suggests midnight:

Can I use my Railcard on the date of expiry? - 26-30 Railcard

Terms and conditions for the railcard would appear to be silent on the matter. Digital railcards spec is silent on the matter, and the documented accreditation tests don't check that railcards expire at a particular time.

I've not found anything online to support a 04:29 expiry interpretation.

 

[Western Sunset]

I witnessed this for the first time the other day, a girl showed her ticket then when asked for her railcard sheepishly showed me an "expired" digital 16-17 saver, upon closer inspection it was for that very date, I explained this to her and endorsed her ticket so she didn't have to worry the whole day.

I've since passed this on to my TOC's head of retail to follow up and issue a staff brief!

Now that's excellent customer service. Very well done!

 

[XAM2175]

This to me is the only official information I can find on an RDG site, and the way I read it suggests midnight:

Can I use my Railcard on the date of expiry? - 26-30 Railcard
Terms and conditions for the railcard would appear to be silent on the matter. Digital railcards spec is silent on the matter, and the documented accreditation tests don't check that railcards expire at a particular time.

I've not found anything online to support a 04:29 expiry interpretation.

Yes, as much as the 0429 expiry might be reasonably held to be consistent with the end of the "ticketing day", in the absence of a specific time of expiry I'd interpret it as 2359 on the given date.

It really is the sort of detail that should be documented in the digital specifications and the accreditation tests, because failure to do so leads exactly to this sort of scenario.

I've since passed this on to my TOC's head of retail to follow up and issue a staff brief!

Now that's excellent customer service. Very well done!

Seconded!

 

[Western Sunset]

I've just contacted National Rail to seek clarification on all this. I'll let you know their response...

 

[aifo]

As a developer, Date Time boundary issues are the bane of my existence. I can definitely see someone just comparing Now (including time) and Expiry Date (at 00:00:00), not realising the issue and nobody picking it up.
Other fun date time things that cause bugs:
Clock change from GMT to BST and vice versa, Leap Years and Time Zones

Of course the likelihood is, now it's been reported, it will be considered low priority because the workaround is the human element fixes the problem.

 

[Hadders]

A railcard purchased on 1 January is valid for a year. That means it should carry an expiry date of 31 December, and this is what happens with a paper railcard. It can be used on 31 December. In fact were you not able to use it on 31 December then it wouldn't have a years validity, only 364 days.

Thinking about digital railcards, if one is purchased in 1 January what expiry date does it carry. I'd expect it to show 31 December and it would have to be valid for travel on 31 December, otherwise it wouldn't have a years validity upon purchase. Does a digital railcard purchased on 1 January show an expiry date of 1 January by any chance? If it did then I could understand why they are saying they're not valid on the last day.

 

[BigCj34]

A railcard purchased on 1 January is valid for a year. That means it should carry an expiry date of 31 December, and this is what happens with a paper railcard. It can be used on 31 December. In fact were you not able to use it on 31 December then it wouldn't have a years validity, only 364 days.

Thinking about digital railcards, if one is purchased in 1 January what expiry date does it carry. I'd expect it to show 31 December and it would have to be valid for travel on 31 December, otherwise it wouldn't have a years validity upon purchase. Does a digital railcard purchased on 1 January show an expiry date of 1 January by any chance? If it did then I could understand why they are saying they're not valid on the last day.

It would show 31 December, but then the railcard would not open on that day as it would say it has expired.

Even if it did show an expiry date of 1 January the following year I would expect to be able to use it on that day if that is the listed expiry date.

 

[BigCj34]

Got another reply when I wrote back. Absolutely no will to amend what should be an easy fix.

"Thanks for your response to the query registered with us. I was sorry to learn that the 26-30 Railcard should allow you access up until 23:59 of the expiry date and not expire on Sunday, 07 August 2022, midnight as it captures the next day as there was no option of getting the physical Railcard with 26-30 its only digital.

I am sorry to inform you that we won't be able to help you as the expiry date on the system is configured in such a way that adding days won't be an option on the Railcard. As my colleague explained to you that your Railcard expired on Sunday, 07 August 2022, after midnight since the system captures the next day.

While I know this may not be the answer you were looking for, I trust I was able to clarify the situation.

Thanks again for contacting us, and please let me know if I can be of any further assistance."

 

[gray1404]

Take the matter to the rail Ombudsman

 

[Ianigsy]

Appalling English for a customer relations professional. If that's how they structure their sentences, it's not really surprising that they can't understand the issue.

 

[Western Sunset]

And I'm still waiting for a reply from National Rail asking for clarification of this, which I sent 10 days ago.

 

[Hadders]

This is appalling. If the railcard is not useable on its last day of validity then it's been mis-sold. It is sold with validity of a year (i.e. 365 days), and not 364 days.

I wonder if this is something Trading Standards might be interested in?

 

[Western Sunset]

I've read the reply from the Railcard people (in post #20) several times and it still doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm assuming "BigC" copied it out exactly as they received it; if so, an absolutely shocking and poorly worded reply.

 

[gray1404]

It's time that the contact centre for Railcards and NRE was back in the UK.

 

[BigCj34]

I've read the reply from the Railcard people (in post #20) several times and it still doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm assuming "BigC" copied it out exactly as they received it; if so, an absolutely shocking and poorly worded reply.

Yes, direct copy and paste. Rail ombudsmen is a good shout.

 

[gray1404]

They can sort issues like this out on physical Railcards. I had the issue once and they sent me another physical one with a later expiry date (plus a few days to allow for postage time).

 

[py_megapixel]

It sounds like it's a software bug which someone in the customer service centre has erroneously tried to explain as if it were an actual policy! How utterly incompetent.

 

[Western Sunset]

When I was teaching, my class of 7-year-olds could write something more coherent than the pathetic attempt by National Rail.