Digital railcard not usable on expiry date

[gray1404]

It sounds like it's a software bug which someone in the customer service centre has erroneously tried to explain as if it were an actual policy! How utterly incompetent.

I remember this issue affecting me during the first lockdown when I was renewing my railcard. So the point are making is this has been going on for a very long time now and nobody wants to do anything about it, to the extent it has become normalised. It's totally unacceptable and needs to end. The level of contempt Sharon by the customer service contact centre when they are contacted about this issue is disgusting. It is basically an attempt to fob multiple customers off by trying to justify an error with some polite lingo that makes no coherent sense.

 

[Western Sunset]

To my surprise (and delight) I actually got a reply from National Rail querying expiry dates on railcards; see my post #16. This is what they say verbatim:

Hello Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to email us. My sincere apologies for the delayed response. I understand that you are seeking clarification on the expiry of a Railcard.

As per our Terms and conditions, I would like to inform you that the start date and the end date on the Railcard are system generated; therefore, when the date changes at midnight, the system recognises the new date as its expiry date. Hence, your Railcard becomes inactive.

While I realise that this is not the answer you were hoping for, I trust I was able to clarify the situation.

If you have any other queries, please let me know if I can be of any further help.

Kind regards,

Santosh Khanvilkar
The Railcard Help Team


At least the reply is written in a more coherent way. Looks like it's all down to the "system" and that's that.

 

[gray1404]

It has nothing to do with the system. It is to do with the way the system is programmed. A system only do what it is programmed to do by a human.

If the same logic is then applied to my tickets or e-tickets then they should never be valid. After all once it hits midnight on a day then it becomes invalid if the same logic is true of railcards. The response is a load of tripe especially where he puts as pair of terms and conditions. There is nothing in the terms and conditions that stipulate that about the expiry date.

I'm also sick to death of seeing this line in customer service correspondence these days as an excuse for nothing being done about a real problem... I think this matter should be escalated to the Rail Ombudsman now if possible.
While I realise that this is not the answer you were hoping for, I trust I was able to clarify the situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

This matter could easily be resolved by then changing the coding so the Railcard is valid until 23: 59 59 on the expiry date rather then 00 00 00

 

[Ediswan]

This matter could easily be resolved by then changing the coding so the Railcard is valid until 23: 59 59 on the expiry date rather then 00 00 00

I rather suspect that @aifo had the explanation of the bug at post #17. If you compare against a date (only), the underlying library will assume 00:00:00.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To my surprise (and delight) I actually got a reply from National Rail querying expiry dates on railcards; see my post #16. This is what they say verbatim:

Hello Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to email us. My sincere apologies for the delayed response. I understand that you are seeking clarification on the expiry of a Railcard.

As per our Terms and conditions, I would like to inform you that the start date and the end date on the Railcard are system generated; therefore, when the date changes at midnight, the system recognises the new date as its expiry date. Hence, your Railcard becomes inactive.

While I realise that this is not the answer you were hoping for, I trust I was able to clarify the situation.

If you have any other queries, please let me know if I can be of any further help.

Kind regards,

Santosh Khanvilkar
The Railcard Help Team


At least the reply is written in a more coherent way. Looks like it's all down to the "system" and that's that.

It's a clear explanation of what is happening and what the bug is, but also a breach of contract, as what is being advertised is a 12 month Railcard, not a 364 day one.

Unfortunately it's unlikely anyone would see one day as enough to sue over. Unless any of our resident litigation enthusiasts might fancy a go?

 

[gray1404]

I think a possible solution here could be if enough members write to their MP about it and then the MP sends a letter to the relevant minister who may have enough clout to get something done about it. After all I assume railcards for shortly be taking on The Great British Rail branding.....

 

[Western Sunset]

I think I'll pen a reply to Santosh tomorrow raising the following three points as mentioned by others above:

1. There is nothing in the terms and conditions that stipulate that railcards become invalid at the start of the day of expiry
2. There is a clear breach of contract, and misrepresentation from a trading standards view, as what is being advertised is a 12-month Railcard, not a 364-day one
3. The matter could easily be resolved by changing the coding so the Railcard is valid until 23: 59 59 on the expiry date, rather then 00 00 00

Anything else I should add? I'll probably mention referral to the Rail Ombudsman if a satisfactory reply/outcome is not forthcoming.

 

[Hadders]

You might want to mention that, as currently implemented, there is a difference in the validity between physical and digital railcards.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think I'll pen a reply to Santosh tomorrow raising the following three points as mentioned by others above:

1. There is nothing in the terms and conditions that stipulate that railcards become invalid at the start of the day of expiry
2. There is a clear breach of contract, and misrepresentation from a trading standards view, as what is being advertised is a 12-month Railcard, not a 364-day one
3. The matter could easily be resolved by changing the coding so the Railcard is valid until 23: 59 59 on the expiry date, rather then 00 00 00

Anything else I should add? I'll probably mention referral to the Rail Ombudsman if a satisfactory reply/outcome is not forthcoming.

You might want to mention that, as currently implemented, there is a difference in the validity between physical and digital railcards.

Thanks H. I'll put that as the second point.

 

[LOL The Irony]

This matter could easily be resolved by then changing the coding so the Railcard is valid until 23: 59 59 on the expiry date rather then 00 00 00

It'd have to be coded to expire at 04:29:59 the following day, as that is still considered the current day.

 

[gray1404]

It'd have to be coded to expire at 04:29:59 the following day, as that is still considered the current day.

For ticketing purposes yes but not necessarily for railcards. There has been a discussion on this point in a previous thread so I do not want to restart it here but I recall no consensus was met.

 

[Western Sunset]

I've just sent off my email to Santosh at the Railcard Help Team, basically along the lines of post #39 above. Now to wait and see what they say - hopefully, he'll pass it to his manager, and by mentioning the Railway Ombudsman it might get them moving. Though on reflection, probably not...

 

[Watershed]

I've just sent off my email to Santosh at the Railcard Help Team, basically along the lines of post #39 above. Now to wait and see what they say - hopefully, he'll pass it to his manager, and by mentioning the Railway Ombudsman it might get them moving. Though on reflection, probably not...

Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to take RDG to the Rail Ombudsman. In theory, if you wanted to make a journey on the lost day of validity, you could buy an undiscounted ticket and claim for the difference. But if it's more than £30 they will say you should have bought a new Railcard instead.

It's one of those things where it's really rather difficult to get what you're owed, in any vaguely cost effective manner.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It seems like the kind of thing that perhaps a collective legal action might be able to address, though it'd be far better if RDG just fixed it.

 

[Watershed]

It seems like the kind of thing that perhaps a collective legal action might be able to address, though it'd be far better if RDG just fixed it.

In theory yes, but as seen on the GTR claim thread, the threshold to bring a collective claim is quite onerous. And RDG would almost certainly defend it on any technicality.

 

[XAM2175]

But if it's more than £30 they will say you should have bought a new Railcard instead.

Might be a bit hard for somebody who's turned 31 since they bought the last one, isn't eligible for the disabled persons or veterans offers, and is travelling alone outside the Network Railcard area

 

[gray1404]

In theory yes, but as seen on the GTR claim thread, the threshold to bring a collective claim is quite onerous. And RDG would almost certainly defend it on any technicality.

I wonder if the realistic prospects though of an attempt of such a legal claim would cause them to simply correct the matter rather than have to defend it.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread, I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected. I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of any action to deal with people who have been incorrectly charged, but can confirm that there is no question that Digital Railcards should (like their paper equivalents) expire at the end of their last day of validity.

 

[Starmill]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread

Perhaps you can clarify what advice you think is incorrect and why? And of course, what your own advice would be to someone who has found that they've lost a day of validity of their railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==

I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected.

I'm sure this will be very reassuring to anyone who has not travelled because of the price difference between the railcard and full price fare, paid for a more expensive ticket than necessary, been charged for a new ticket at full fare, been charged a Penalty Fare or reported for prosecution.

 

[Hadders]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread, I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected. I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of any action to deal with people who have been incorrectly charged, but can confirm that there is no question that Digital Railcards should (like their paper equivalents) expire at the end of their last day of validity.

That is good to hear.

In the meantime, I hope a staff brief will be issued, and prosecutions departments made aware.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Perhaps you can clarify what advice you think is incorrect and why? And of course, what your own advice would be to someone who has found that they've lost a day of validity of their railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==


I'm sure this will be very reassuring to anyone who has not travelled because of the price difference between the railcard and full price fare, paid for a more expensive ticket than necessary, been charged for a new ticket at full fare, been charged a Penalty Fare or reported for prosecution.

By National Rail customer services - I'm happy to clarify I wasn't referring to those on the thread

 

[Watershed]

I'm sure this will be very reassuring to anyone who has not travelled because of the price difference between the railcard and full price fare, paid for a more expensive ticket than necessary, been charged for a new ticket at full fare, been charged a Penalty Fare or reported for prosecution.

Indeed. "Taken seriously" would, in any business that even remotely cares about the customer experience, mean issuing a nationwide brief to staff instructing them to accept falsely "expired" Railcards. Instructing TOCs to check through their prosecutions and Penalty Fares correspondence to make sure nobody has been wrongly charged/convicted. And issuing a press release apologising and asking anyone who is affected to get in touch.

Of course none of those things are going to happen. The most that might happen is that the RDG, reluctantly, reimburses those who threaten to take legal action.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. "Taken seriously" would, in any business that even remotely cares about the customer experience, mean issuing a nationwide brief to staff instructing them to accept falsely "expired" Railcards. Instructing TOCs to check through their prosecutions and Penalty Fares correspondence to make sure nobody has been wrongly charged/convicted. And issuing a press release apologising and asking anyone who is affected to get in touch.

Precisely. That's a bare minimum of action to take at this point, now that they're aware of this serious error. It still wouldn't be enough to get a refund out to those entitled to one in every case, but it would be a start.

Ideally, everyone who has lost a day of validity incorrectly should be given something to make up for it also. Say, a free 7 days of validity back into their railcard app.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==

By National Rail customer services - I'm happy to clarify I wasn't referring to those on the thread

Ah, I understand. Thank you.

 

[Western Sunset]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread, I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected. I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of any action to deal with people who have been incorrectly charged, but can confirm that there is no question that Digital Railcards should (like their paper equivalents) expire at the end of their last day of validity.

That's good to hear. Though there was no intimation in the reply I got from them recently (post #32) that anything was to change.

 

[swt_passenger]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread, I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected. I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of any action to deal with people who have been incorrectly charged, but can confirm that there is no question that Digital Railcards should (like their paper equivalents) expire at the end of their last day of validity.

It would probably save any future issues if they dealt with the 0430 end of validity at the same time…

 

[Wallsendmag]

Despite the poor and incorrect advice given to a number of people on this thread, I have found out that this issue is being taken seriously by the Railcard people at RDG who are working on getting it corrected. I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of any action to deal with people who have been incorrectly charged, but can confirm that there is no question that Digital Railcards should (like their paper equivalents) expire at the end of their last day of validity.

Someone in the industry may have given them a heads up.

 

[thedbdiboy]

You think?

 

[Adam Williams]

I suspect there was more than one heads-up provided about this...

Doesn't reflect super well on the outsourced customer service though really, does it? That seemingly the best (only?) way to get something properly investigated is to complain about it on the forum.

It's not like tech companies are much better though, you see folks only getting their account unlocked/appeal reviewed when they post about it on Reddit or HackerNews.

 

[Western Sunset]

In my reply to them, I suggested a coding change to 04:29:59 for the day after the expiry date. I'll let you know when (of if) they reply again.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Someone in the industry may have given them a heads up.

You do realise that industry members browse and populate these forums? I can list off 5 people off the top of my head who work(ed) in backroom roles.