LNER strike day services: Who operates them?

[Christmas]

The main railway dispute thread is closed so had to start this. On the strike day of Saturday 30th July LNER were operating a limited service from Edinburgh Waverley to King's Cross despite LNER drivers being on strike.

My question is who was actually driving those trains? Managers are presumably ASLEF members too.

The news on ITV mentioned limited services on the next strike days by other TOCs. Again, who's driving those trains? Has the government managed the impossible and found a source of competent agency drivers?

 

[SJN]

The main railway dispute thread is closed so had to start this. On the strike day of Saturday 30th July LNER were operating a limited service from Edinburgh Waverley to King's Cross despite LNER drivers being on strike.

My question is who was actually driving those trains? Managers are presumably ASLEF members too.

The news on ITV mentioned limited services on the next strike days by other TOCs. Again, who's driving those trains? Has the government managed the impossible and found a source of competent agency drivers?

Managers are generally members of TSSA who are on strike at some TOC’s on 18th & 20th August.

 

[GB]

The main railway dispute thread is closed so had to start this. On the strike day of Saturday 30th July LNER were operating a limited service from Edinburgh Waverley to King's Cross despite LNER drivers being on strike.

My question is who was actually driving those trains? Managers are presumably ASLEF members too.

The news on ITV mentioned limited services on the next strike days by other TOCs. Again, who's driving those trains? Has the government managed the impossible and found a source of competent agency drivers?

Not every driver is in the union.

 

[skyhigh]

Has the government managed the impossible and found a source of competent agency drivers?

No.

Managers are not in ASLEF, and not all drivers are either. Those are the people driving trains - same as they do every other working day. No agency drivers.

 

[matt_world2004]

Even if a driver is in the trade union they are free to comply with the strike or not. They are not bound to participate in the strike. Likewise someone who isn't in the trade union can participate in the strike if they want ( they just won't get any strike pay from the union)

 

[Christmas]

Well I'm very surprised at that. Most driver managers at ScotRail are in ASLEF so I had assumed that LNER would be the same.

 

[skyhigh]

Most driver managers at ScotRail are in ASLEF

Are you sure on that? As I understand it here managers cannot be in ASLEF. I assumed that was nationwide but maybe it's a local policy.

 

[800001]

LNER driver managers drove on the drivers strike days.

 

[43066]

Even if a driver is in the trade union they are free to comply with the strike or not. They are not bound to participate in the strike. Likewise someone who isn't in the trade union can participate in the strike if they want ( they just won't get any strike pay from the union)

While that may be true, you won’t find many ASLEF members who break strikes. Likewise you won’t find many drivers who aren’t ASLEF members.

There are nowhere near enough or either to make a material difference.

 

[Andyh82]

Are you sure on that? As I understand it here managers cannot be in ASLEF. I assumed that was nationwide but maybe it's a local policy.

Is this one of those strange railway things? If you better yourself and step up the career ladder you are thrown out of the union and treat like ‘them’ rather than ‘us’? A driver manager is hardly the CEO?

 

[mmh]

Is this one of those strange railway things? If you better yourself and step up the career ladder you are thrown out of the union and treat like ‘them’ rather than ‘us’? A driver manager is hardly the CEO?

No different to the civil service. Most people are in the PCS, a few in Prospect and then you have the FDA, ostensibly for the Senior Civil Service grades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==

Surprised this thread hasn't had a reply of the S-word yet. Well done all!

 

[43066]

Is this one of those strange railway things? If you better yourself and step up the career ladder you are thrown out of the union and treat like ‘them’ rather than ‘us’? A driver manager is hardly the CEO?

They aren’t forced to leave the union, in fact I was speaking to one the other day who is still in ASLEF. Upon becoming DMs many do choose to leave ASLEF and join TSSA. It wouldn’t really be appropriate for a manager to attend a branch meeting, though, so I’m not sure how that would work in practice if they wanted to.

It isn’t really seen as a a “step up” in the way it would be in other industries, rather it’s a move into a different job which introduces a conflict of interests.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is this one of those strange railway things? If you better yourself and step up the career ladder you are thrown out of the union and treat like ‘them’ rather than ‘us’? A driver manager is hardly the CEO?

I don't think it's a them and us thing, more to avoid a conflict of interest if there is a dispute between both.

 

[GKMaxx]

Aslef are the dominant union for drivers , so they do the collective bargaining for that grade.
TSSA do the collective bargaining for managers . It generally makes sense to be a part of the union that looks after you best interests.

 

[Bald Rick]

It wouldn’t really be appropriate for a manager to attend a branch meeting

Genuine question - why not?

They pay their subs, and presumably are in the union for the same benefits as everyone else.

 

[43066]

Genuine question - why not?

They pay their subs, and presumably are in the union for the same benefits as everyone else.

(For the record I hardly go to branch meetings either).

I think simply because they’re employed in an investigatory/disciplinary role, so chat amongst “the men on the ground” isn’t appropriate for their ears. Their performance in their role is benchmarked against completely different objectives and outcomes to ours.

It’s very different to industries where your manager works with you directly, and is someone you one day aspire to become. On the railway, your manager is the person who interviews you when you’ve screwed up. To quote Blackadder, the less you’re “at home to Mr. Cock-Up”, the less you will see of them. If you do much overtime at all you will also earn more money than your manager, potentially quite a lot more.

We have a very cordial relationship between drivers and managers where I am, but make no mistake. There’s still a divide.

Would I rule it out for myself in the future? No. Would I be doing it for the wrong reasons, ie to get away from shifts? Almost certainly!

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok fair enough.

I still don’t understand it though. Especially this bit.

We have a very cordial relationship between drivers and managers where I am, but make no mistake. There’s still a divide.

 

[43066]

Ok fair enough.

I still don’t understand it though. Especially this bit.

They come into the messroom, we all have a good old chinwag.

We also think before we speak .

How do you deal with your manager?!

 

[tiptoptaff]

ASLEF has a "supervisory" grade for Driver Managers who retain driver competence.

They aren't included in Driver Grade ballots or strike actions, or pay negotiations.

At my TOC, they're on a fixed "premium" as an additional percentage of thr driver wage. As a result, they don't need TSSA to negotiate for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==

Quite importantly, ASLEF will still represent them if they have an incident or any other enquiry where their work is called in to question.

 

[43066]

Quite importantly, ASLEF will still represent them if they have an incident or any other enquiry where their work is called in to question.

They also presumably don’t attend branch meetings? I’ve never known of a DM to do so since I joined the railway. It might happen elsewhere, but I doubt it (I’m two TOCs in).

I’d be keen to know how that side of things works for someone in a management role retaining ASLEF membership.

 

[PupCuff]

Away from the Driver world, I started in management on a secondment from 'the grades' and during that period I remained with the RMT; when I formally full time moved into management the option did remain for me to stay, indeed this was encouraged by my at the time LLC rep, and the RMT did maintain a rep in head office for these circumstances - though for the similar reasons as noted above, I moved into TSSA.

TSSA are the most appropriate union for managers, really. As pointed out upthread, there is a divide between frontline grades and management, though I think it's getting less and less, particularly where frontline staff see folk they respect being promoted into management grades.

 

[DarloRich]

Is this one of those strange railway things? If you better yourself and step up the career ladder you are thrown out of the union and treat like ‘them’ rather than ‘us’? A driver manager is hardly the CEO?

you aren't forced to leave the union on promotion but each part of the railway workforce has its own union recognition, collective bargaining & representation agreement.

In practice, you tend to change union if you progress into a different section of the workforce so you get the benefits of the union recognition in your sector of the workforce. It is no different to teachers or the civil service in that regard.

Of course, it isn't quite that clear cut but you get the gist (There is cross over. I bet ASLEF have a section for DRIVER managers while TSSA have a section for driver MANAGERS! )

 

[ComUtoR]

I’d be keen to know how that side of things works for someone in a management role retaining ASLEF membership.

Apologies as I cut the previous part of your post but it only required a one word response. "Courtesy"

I know a few Managers who have retained their ASLEF membership and I was very much involved at my local branch.

There is a misunderstanding between local representation and what happens at Branch. Branch meetings are there to discuss "ASLEF" and Union issues. If a Manager attended then there shouldn't be any conflict as "The Union" is there to serve its members.

Local issues are very different. Thats where a Manager would be in potential conflict. However, if a Manager was present then you have the perfect opportunity to discuss local issues on a 1-1 level and speak in an open, and protected, forum.

Managers don't go to branch but this is more out of a courtesy than anything else. Personally I think this is ASLEFs error. By asking Managers to step aside or leave the Union they help create the *them and us" culture. What they could do is work more collaboratively and exploit that inside relationship with the Management grade.

The Union do an incredible job but they could certainly do better if they had Managers as active members.

TSSA are well known for rolling over and getting their tummy tickled.

 

[800 Driver]

(For the record I hardly go to branch meetings either).

I think simply because they’re employed in an investigatory/disciplinary role, so chat amongst “the men on the ground” isn’t appropriate for their ears. Their performance in their role is benchmarked against completely different objectives and outcomes to ours.

It’s very different to industries where your manager works with you directly, and is someone you one day aspire to become. On the railway, your manager is the person who interviews you when you’ve screwed up. To quote Blackadder, the less you’re “at home to Mr. Cock-Up”, the less you will see of them. If you do much overtime at all you will also earn more money than your manager, potentially quite a lot more.

We have a very cordial relationship between drivers and managers where I am, but make no mistake. There’s still a divide.

Would I rule it out for myself in the future? No. Would I be doing it for the wrong reasons, ie to get away from shifts? Almost certainly!

Driver managers have their own branches within aslef

 

[Sheridan]

No different to the civil service. Most people are in the PCS, a few in Prospect and then you have the FDA, ostensibly for the Senior Civil Service grades.

Indeed, when I was in the civil service and a PCS member, my line manager was also my union rep. I never felt great about that, but as they weren’t senior enough to join another union there was nothing wrong with it, per se. If enough people had felt strongly enough we could have appointed a different rep but most members didn’t seem to mind!

 

[TUC]

Well done and thank you to those who turn up for work and do their job and beyond to keep services running.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well done and thank you to those who support the strikes today. Those who choose to lose a day's pay, those who will stay home, and those who will picket.

I'll be bringing plenty of water down for you.

 

[John Luxton]

Could it be that some people just do not agree with strikes and continue to work. For a period of time in my teaching career I was a member of the NUT. I never voted for strike or industrial action nor did I participate in it as I found it morally wrong to disadvantage pupils or their parents and neither was a I prepared to give up my wages!

Thus I carried on working. I imagine the same could be true with some rail staff. Some of my colleagues did not agree with me but they did respect the reasons for my decision.

 

[dk1]

Could it be that some people just do not agree with strikes and continue to work. For a period of time in my teaching career I was a member of the NUT. I never voted for strike or industrial action nor did I participate in it as I found it morally wrong to disadvantage pupils or their parents and neither was a I prepared to give up my wages!

Thus I carried on working. I imagine the same could be true with some rail staff. Some of my colleagues did not agree with me but they did respect the reasons for my decision.

I have only ever come across one or two train drivers in my entire career who have behaved like that. Some might not be vocal or join in any protest, but this grade tends to tow the line in almost 100% solidarity to whatever the union decides,

 

[43066]

Well done and thank you to those who turn up for work and do their job and beyond to keep services running.

How predictable. It seems every post of yours is either a complaint about the railway in general or a moan about strikers.

Well done to the ASLEF members exercising their democratic right to withdraw their labour today.

Could it be that some people just do not agree with strikes and continue to work. For a period of time in my teaching career I was a member of the NUT. I never voted for strike or industrial action nor did I participate in it as I found it morally wrong to disadvantage pupils or their parents and neither was a I prepared to give up my wages!

Thus I carried on working. I imagine the same could be true with some rail staff. Some of my colleagues did not agree with me but they did respect the reasons for my decision.

Most on the railway (by which I mean 99%) would view it as morally unacceptable to go against the democratic mandate of the union, which is really undermining one’s colleagues. Giving up wages isn’t what anyone wants to have to do, but it’s part and parcel of strike action.