InterCity West Coast consultation

[Ivo]

So it's quite clear that there are provisionally ten paths available for the new WC franchise out of Euston, and an additional one out of Birmingham.

I am of the opinion, as with several others on here, that the problem service is the Chester one. Does anyone have any loading figures for it? All of the other services serve very large conurbations, whereas it dawdles along to a relatively minor city; yes, it has good links but so does Crewe. Therefore, I would propose the following:

2tph EUS - BHM (390)
1tph EUS - BHM - CTR (390)
3tph EUS - MAN (390)
2tph EUS - LIV (390)
1tph EUS - GLC (390)
1tph EUS - PRE - BPN/BIF (220/221 x2)
1tph BHM - CAR - GLC/EDB (220/221 x2)

...or does that use too many units? Also, this would require OHLE extended through to Chester, as tbtc suggested. It would however cause a problem with the Holyhead services, which I would propose are curtailed at Crewe and run using something like a 67.

 

[MCR247]

I think Chester deserves a better service than one through Birmingham to be fair

 

[Failed Unit]

I think Chester deserves a better service than one through Birmingham to be fair

I would suggest that is a good idea if it went via Shrewsbury, although I don't expect WSRC would agree unless they operated it.

 

[tbtc]

I think Chester deserves a better service than one through Birmingham to be fair

A half hourly London - Northampton - Stafford - Crewe - Chester LM service would be my answer - once an hour via Stoke (but skip stopping south of Stafford, once an hour stopping more (but avoiding Stoke).

Wire up the twenty-odd miles, order some more 350s, and you have twenty spare Voyagers (and an ATW 153) spare...

 

[Ivo]

I just don't see the need for a Chester service. Unless I'm mistaken, it only tends to call at MK and Crewe; yes, the latter has decent connections but it is already well served from both London and Chester. That is why I propose extending the current Wolvo service there, with calls at Stafford and Crewe. Whilst it would mean a slower service, it would mean a greater capacity (even if Brum does take up a lot of it...!), and would provide better links to Birmingham and its airport.

Ultimately, I would agree with tbtc that an LM service may be a good call; would that in theory still leave in free path (allowing the second Liverpool run to continue as planned using my set above)?

I might actually give a WC timetable a go in a bit. I'm not sure where freight paths would slot in, but we'll see how it goes! And it'll be faire on the "shacks" such as Nuneaton and Wigan.

 

[tbtc]

I just don't see the need for a Chester service. Unless I'm mistaken, it only tends to call at MK and Crewe; yes, the latter has decent connections but it is already well served from both London and Chester. That is why I propose extending the current Wolvo service there, with calls at Stafford and Crewe. Whilst it would mean a slower service, it would mean a greater capacity (even if Brum does take up a lot of it...!), and would provide better links to Birmingham and its airport

If London - Chester was via Birmingham, then you have an excuse to:

1. Run Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth hourly, once ERTMS etc is resolved on the Cambrian

2. Run Cardiff - Shrewsbury - Holyhead hourly (thus saving the need for WAG to have more "Premier" services)

3. Withdraw the current Birmingham - SHrewsbury - Chester - Holyhead service (replaced by equivalent frequency enhancements from Birmingham to Shrewsbury and from Shrewsbury to Holyhead)

Places like Cwmbran/ Hereford/ Shrewsbury get a half hourly service to Cardiff (with the hourly South Wales - Manchester train)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Crewe to Chester is a frustratingly short distance, twenty miles or so, which would free up twenty Voyagers (plus one ATW DMU). Wire it up, give the Chester - Crewe service to LM, and sort out a 57-drag for a token Holyhead service (since there seems to be more will for links from North Wales to South Wales than to London)

The traffic is for London and Manchester first not Cardiff the loadings on the North Wales Coast can be quite high and some 5 car Voyagers west of Chester are overcrowded.

Were all doing a good job of demonstrating the capacity case for HS2 on this thread arent we as its all rob Peter to pay Paul!

 

[tbtc]

The traffic is for London and Manchester first not Cardiff the loadings on the North Wales Coast can be quite high and some 5 car Voyagers west of Chester are overcrowded

Well, the politicians seem more interested in linking north Wales to south Wales (and not Liverpool/ Manchester etc)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well, the politicians seem more interested in linking north Wales to south Wales (and not Liverpool/ Manchester etc)

Depends which politicians you ask..i.e Plaid only. Still an election for Wales this year could see a change in Govt in Cardiff Bay. With the Independent for Blaenau Gwent stepping down and the expected backlash against the Torys/Lib Dems for Westminster policy's many suspect that Labour will just scrape a go it alone majority in the Senedd by default.

 

[route:oxford]

Bring back "The Clansman"!

 

[The Planner]

It'd probably be too complicated for NR to contemplate, but you could run Birmingham-Edinburgh/Manchester Airport-Glasgow one hour and Birmingham-Glasgow/Manchester Aiport-Edinburgh the next hour - have the trains join/split at Wigan NW; split/join at Carstairs.

Nothing to do with NR, we dont define operators routes, the Dft spec the services. We then try and fit it in.

 

[Invincibles]

I would like to see some of the Manchester to Scotland paths combined with paths on the Trent Valley slows and Crewe to Manchester Airport to create a slow service between London and Scotland using either 350s or something a little more comfortable. This is suggested above as being possible for Pendolinos were it not for the difficulties in using the airport station. The extra journey opportunities would make this train attractive because clearly the timings would not make people use it over the whole route.

Otherwise I think that they are getting it right, just needs a little more options for connections from Nuneaton and Tamworth into the Manchester trains (purely selfish)

Most of these questions seem to ask you to say "yes that would be good" so that they can simply say "well we could not make everyone happy"

 

[northwichcat]

Crewe to Chester is a frustratingly short distance, twenty miles or so, which would free up twenty Voyagers (plus one ATW DMU). Wire it up, give the Chester - Crewe service to LM, and sort out a 57-drag for a token Holyhead service (since there seems to be more will for links from North Wales to South Wales than to London)

It isn't one ATW DMU that stays on that service all day. ATW use that service as a way of moving stock between Chester and Crewe without ECS moves, that's why you can get anything from a 150 to a 153 to a 158 to a 175 running those shuttles.

Why not wire up Runcorn-Chester-Crewe and reinstate the missing bi-directional part on the Halton curve then you could run the following using EMUs:

Liverpool-London calling at Stafford only 1tph
Liverpool-London calling at Runcorn, Chester and Crewe 1tph
Liverpool-Birmingham calling at South Parkway, Runcorn, Chester, Crewe ... Birmingham 1tph

Alongside the proposed 1tph LM Preston-Birmingham, Liverpool-Birmingham and Liverpool-London services and a 5tpd Voyager service from Holyhead to London via Wrexham and Birmingham.

 

[cle]

The Chester service is well-used, I've been on it several times. Very handy too.

But I think it could have a couple more stops to be more useful, and to mop up some of the smaller stations - maybe Nuneaton on each, and then alternate Lichfield and Tamworth hourly? I'm sure it would be possible up the Trent Valley with 4 tracks to change some pathing.

This would offer these stations lots of good connections at Crewe (as opposed to the slower LM services), and wouldn't impact journey times too badly.

 

[tbtc]

Why not wire up Runcorn-Chester-Crewe

...if you are going to do that then wiring the North Wales coast line to Llandudno/ Holyhead becomes very tempting - EMUs direct to/from Manchester/ London etc - maybe go back to terminating the Shrewsbury services at Chester (with the half hourly service west of Chester being provided by Manchester/ London trains?)

 

[northwichcat]

...if you are going to do that then wiring the North Wales coast line to Llandudno/ Holyhead becomes very tempting - EMUs direct to/from Manchester/ London etc - maybe go back to terminating the Shrewsbury services at Chester (with the half hourly service west of Chester being provided by Manchester/ London trains?)

Wiring up Runcorn-Chester-Crewe is only a small extension of the Chester-Crewe you suggested and would allow the following using EMUs during engineering works/disruption:
1. Divert Liverpool-London services via Chester instead of via Acton Bridge.
2. During Chester-Crewe engineering works run services as Chester-Liverpool-London or visit Runcorn.

If you wire up the whole of the Manchester-Llandudno then you really need to do Edgley Junction-Mickle Trafford as well otherwise if there's problems/ engineering works on the Warrington line the service would be replaced by buses and during problems units would have to be abandoned as they're be no way of getting them home.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Guardian:

Germany's Deutsche Bahn, Spain's Renfe, Abellio of the Netherlands and Trenitalia are among the companies weighing up bids for the franchise, which will start in 2012 and run until 2026, when the government hopes to open the first phase of its proposed £17bn north-south high speed rail line.

DB, Renfe and Abellio attended a recent Department for Transport seminar on the west coast franchise while Trenitalia has already expressed an interest in bidding as part of a joint venture with France's Veolia. A government source said: "This shows that Britain is open for business. It is no surprise that high-quality bidders are interested in such a prestigious franchise."

 

[The Planner]

Those wanting a gamble should stick a fiver on the frogs, they'll give DB a run for their money I think.

 

[Chafford1]

Those wanting a gamble should stick a fiver on the frogs, they'll give DB a run for their money I think.

If DB win, will they be forced to give up Chiltern?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why would they be?

 

[Chafford1]

Why would they be?

Because they would hold a monopoly on the two fast London - Birmingham services.

 

[Aictos]

Those wanting a gamble should stick a fiver on the frogs, they'll give DB a run for their money I think.

What do you feel are the odds then if you were the bookie and were able to offer a gamble on the interested parties?

 

[The Planner]

Depends on whether the Dft take account of the bids merits or go off who offers the most cash again. I really think that Virgin will rest on their laurels and not offer anything innovative. DB have the clout and more than likely the cash, it will be interesting to see if they consider any intergration with Arriva with their bid. Abellio could do the same with Northern. The others are going to be dark horses and will offer something a bit different I think. Hopefully the Dft will look at some of them in "thats a good idea, why hasn't anyone thought of that before..." frame of mind, but I dont hold my hopes up.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because they would hold a monopoly on the two fast London - Birmingham services.

Don't see why that is a problem, lots of monopolies already exist on large flows. London - Manchester, London - Leeds, London - Brighton and London - south Wales all spring to mind.

 

[Invincibles]

London to Brighton?
London to Leeds? (OK EMT is slow but...)

OK the other two are monopolies, but then there were many other examples that could have been given as well.

I just wonder what the purpose of the Chiltern line becomes if it is owned by the same people as the west coast franchise.

Northern into west coast makes some sense, it has happened before with the old FNW section anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

London to Brighton?
London to Leeds? (OK EMT is slow but...)

OK the other two are monopolies, but then there were many other examples that could have been given as well.

I just wonder what the purpose of the Chiltern line becomes if it is owned by the same people as the west coast franchise.

Northern into west coast makes some sense, it has happened before with the old FNW section anyway.

I would hardly consider a EMT competion, but I could have quote london - Newcastle, London - liecester etc.

Who competes on London - Brighton - oh yeah FCC bad example,should have gone for London - Ashford.

But then london midland do London - Birmingham as well should DB ever get the west coast franchise so Birmingham will still have more choice than many Uk cities. Some of which don't even have different bus companies either. Stagecoach or nothing in lincs for example.

 

[Dreadnought]

Depends on whether the Dft take account of the bids merits or go off who offers the most cash again. I really think that Virgin will rest on their laurels and not offer anything innovative. DB have the clout and more than likely the cash, it will be interesting to see if they consider any intergration with Arriva with their bid. Abellio could do the same with Northern. The others are going to be dark horses and will offer something a bit different I think. Hopefully the Dft will look at some of them in "thats a good idea, why hasn't anyone thought of that before..." frame of mind, but I dont hold my hopes up.

Believe it will be a "Show me the Money" kind of franchising so don't expect anything too innovative unless it is seen a profitable exercise to help fund the payments to the DfT!!

I'm sure I read somewhere this is how most franchises will now be let as the DfT tries to make as much money as it can from the railways!

 

[cymro inside]

Sadly even though there is a demand for Chester to Stoke through services it is unlikely to happen as it would be a nightmare crossing the wcml at Crewe to gain access to platform 6 or 11, Chester needs an hourly service to London as the loading figures have been very satisfactory(i believe vt are very pleased with the revenue increase from the enhanced service) a lot of people in the South Wirral area now use Chester as their railhead for London instead of Liverpool hence the full car park by 0800 every morning! also dont forget that there is all year round boat train traffic from Holyhead for London which has seen an upsurge since the volcanic ash incident and also great demand from North Wales premier station(in revenue and footfall) Bangor...not to mention seasonal and weekend traffic to the coastal resorts.

 

[Failed Unit]

Believe it will be a "Show me the Money" kind of franchising so don't expect anything too innovative unless it is seen a profitable exercise to help fund the payments to the DfT!!

I'm sure I read somewhere this is how most franchises will now be let as the DfT tries to make as much money as it can from the railways!

Hasn't that always been the case?