InterCity West Coast consultation

[YesToHS2]

Dft consultation. Have you say.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2011-01/

 

[FrozenPoints]

Headline points:

Delay Repay is pretty much a requirement in the next franchise:
"Bidders will be required to produce a passenger charter including a Delay Repay compensation scheme based on delays to journeys and will be required to demonstrate a commitment to a proactive policy of informing passengers of their right to claim in any given situation.

"The Delay Repay compensation scheme will apply to all ticket types from daily tickets through to annual season ticket holders irrespective of what caused the delay with the value of compensation calculated on an equitable basis for all. For season tickets, compensation would be calculated using the proportional daily cost of ticket."

And what we know already from the ORR document is major developments for the North West.

Some questions in the consultation:
"Among the questions they may wish to consider are:
- Should the Euston-Glasgow service be enhanced to hourly?
- What is the appropriate balance for London-Glasgow services between fast journey times with few intermediate stops and slower times with more stops?
- Which intermediate stations should be served by Glasgow trains, and how frequently?
- Should the spare off-peak path be used to provide an hourly service between Euston and Preston (or Lancaster or Blackpool) to serve intermediate stations, such as Warrington and Wigan, thus enabling these calls to be removed from the Glasgow trains, with consequent journey time reductions between London and Glasgow?
- Is 3 trains per hour the appropriate level of service between London and each of Birmingham and Manchester, and for how many hours of the day should such a service level operate?
- What is the appropriate frequency of service between Milton Keynes and north-west England?
- Does the West Coast InterCity operator have a role to play in the provision of commuter services between Milton Keynes and London, or would commuters overcrowd the InterCity services?
- Should off-peak services be provided between London and each of Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield, or does the existing hourly service provided by London Midland cater adequately for these flows?
- Is there a case for allocating Pendolinos to some of the Birmingham to Scotland services (to provide greater capacity) whilst allocating
54 diesel-powered Voyagers to some Euston services so that direct trains can be operated to destinations, such as Blackpool North, that lie on non-electrified routes?
- What level of service should be provided at smaller stations on the network such as Motherwell, Lockerbie and Penrith?
- What level of service should be provided between stations such as Oxenholme and Penrith?
- Is there a case for more InterCity services to call at Watford Junction and/or Rugby?"

 

[ainsworth74]

- Is there a case for allocating Pendolinos to some of the Birmingham to Scotland services (to provide greater capacity) whilst allocating
54 diesel-powered Voyagers to some Euston services so that direct trains can be operated to destinations, such as Blackpool North, that lie on non-electrified routes?

There aren't even 54 Super Voyagers in total let alone Virgin having 54! So is this a typo or are DfT not aware of how many trains there are in the country?

 

[philjo]

Perhaps it means 54 vehicles rather than 54 units.
= 6 x 9-car units (or 6 trains formed of 4 & 5 car units coupled together)

 

[MCR247]

VT don't have any 4 car trains

 

[deltic]

What about WCML becoming an electrified only service - ie scrap N Wales services. So fast trains from London serving Glasgow, Blackpool (when electrified), Manchester, Liverpool and Wolverhampton. Also Birmingham- Glasgow/Edinburgh and when Manchester-Preston electrified Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh. North Wales services switch to ATW running between Holyhead to Birmingham/Cardiff.

 

[MCR247]

What benefits would that bring?

 

[Matt Taylor]

What about the 221s that were cut to four cars?

 

[MCR247]

Virgin used the centre cars of 144 to put into 142 and 143, and has 144s driving cars in warm storage

 

[TomJ93]

All VT are 5 cars.

 

[krus_aragon]

What about WCML becoming an electrified only service - ie scrap N Wales services.
...
North Wales services switch to ATW running between Holyhead to Birmingham/Cardiff.

As that's the current ATW service, there's nothing to switch, just cut.

Downsides of that plan include losing all remaining direct trains to Crewe (once the Gerallt Gymro goes via Wrexham), and Chester loses its hourly London service as well.

 

[deltic]

As that's the current ATW service, there's nothing to switch, just cut.

Downsides of that plan include losing all remaining direct trains to Crewe (once the Gerallt Gymro goes via Wrexham), and Chester loses its hourly London service as well.

Few people travel to North Wales (on the times I have travelled including at peak times) - more travel to Liverpool which still only has an hourly service would also take out a Voyager running under the wires - free up a path for a higher capacity pendolino

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The peak services to Crewe and Chester are hellishly busy though...

 

[MCR247]

There is a path for a second Liverpool now

 

[WatcherZero]

Dft specifically mentions the 4 car sets ('Class 221 Super Voyager sets, 18 5-car and 3 4-car')

Anyway back on topic, 14 years as expected takes it to opening of HS2 in 2026.
SDO due to platform extensions not being carried out expected at Haymarket, Coventry, Rugby and Wilmslow.
Interesting section setting out exactly how the two cars will be introduced into existing sets.
The system for rewarding investment appears will be in, including if a repayment period extends beyond the end of the franchise the franchisee will be compensated.

There seems a heavy emphasis on asking PTEs/ITA or other councils to fund additional services or improvements, but with the budget cuts I doubt they will be proposing to sponsor many improvements.

Asks bidders to balance supply with demand and possibly sponsor extra stock to reduce overcrowding.

Its annoying the London centric way its written so everything is 'from Euston', for example one of the questions asking if there should be an extra Euston-Preston service so that the Euston-Glasgow service wont stop in Wigan, however the passenger balance is about 3 times greater Wigan-Scotland than Wigan-Euston passengers! (though true more favor Edinburgh than Glasgow). I suppose however that when Manchester-Scotland services are rerouted an additional Euston service would be nice....hmm I withdraw my objection so long as this change doesnt occur till then.

Suggests reallocating a Voyager to Birmingham-Scotland to free up a Super Voyager for Blackpool services.

Seems to reflect that more people want to travel on bank holidays and weekends now and services should be laid on using alternate routes, and yet NR wants its weekend maintenece blockade lengthened from 16 to 18 hours!

Franchise bidders will be expected to go into the meetings with local PTE's about their station improvement ideas having already drawn up their own plans to improve all stations.

The McNulty reviews suggestion of rather than TOCs simply funding station improvements that NR implements to actually managing the work themselves to save money seems to have been picked up on.

'On TVMs at time of purchase, display of any applicable restrictions and full acceptance of rail card discounts, plus any increased functionality would be desirable.'

Suggestion of adding a pantograph to the Super Voyagers so they can be fitted with regenerative brakes.

 

[mimku]

ainsworth74 and philjo - 54 is the page number in the document not the number of super voyagers.

An amusing copy and paste nevertheless.

 

[swt_passenger]

VT don't have any 4 car trains

As far as the DfT are concerned they do. The recent alterations had to be fully reversible, that's why one of the units still has two shops.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Headline points:

Delay Repay is pretty much a requirement in the next franchise:
"Bidders will be required to produce a passenger charter including a Delay Repay compensation scheme...

It was announced a while back by DfT that all franchises will use delay repay upon renewal, it isn't negotiatiable as far as I understand.

IIRC SWT's last renewal in 2007 was the last one before the delay repay scheme became the standard procedure, the new LM franchise announcement in Jun 2007 included this:

The new passenger refund system, Delay/Repay, will compensate season ticket holders for delays to journeys they have actually taken, not on the basis of overall performance. This is the same compensation system as currently operates for single, return and weekly ticket holders. Refunds will be on the basis of the proportional daily cost of season tickets, with a 50% single refund for delays of 30-59 minutes, 100% single refund for delays of 60-119 minutes, and 100% return refund for delays of 120 minutes+. This system will be rolled out nationally during the term of each new franchise

 

[Ivo]

Is it me or is there no mention of Edinburgh in the list of stations VWC currently serve?

There is a path for a second Liverpool now

I see that there is indeed a spare off-peak path, but there is no mention of it being allocated to Liverpool; indeed, it is suggested that it may not be allocated to the WC franchise at all.

 

[WatcherZero]

Suggestions for the path seem to be Birmingham-Preston, London-Blackpool or for a open operator.

I noticed that the only mention of Edinburgh was in the route diagram (bar two mentions in the introduction blurb defining the WC franchise and one in the key cities timings table), the document main body seemed to portay Glasgow as the only Scottish station however. In fact Edinburgh is even omitted from the frequency of each station table and the list of franchise operated and non franchise operated stations!

Im just happy my local station got quite a few mentions.

 

[Failed Unit]

SDO due to platform extensions not being carried out expected at Haymarket, Coventry, Rugby and Wilmslow.
Interesting section setting out exactly how the two cars will be introduced into existing sets..

Interesting I will really need to pay more attention at Haymarket but a Mk4, Loco and DVT can fit on the platforms. (although I can't remember heading to Edinburgh if the loco is really on the platfrorm)

A 9x Mk4 is the same length as the current pendo's. I know 2 extra coaches are longer than the DVT and loco but surely Haymarket platforms are not much shorted?

Can passengers access pendos at the front and rear doors? If I recall in first the kitchen prevents and in standard the cycle racks prevent this. just a little surprised selective door operation be needed at Haymarket,

 

[WatcherZero]

Are all the platforms the same length? could apply only when their using certain ones.

 

[telstarbox]

Intrigued about delay repay for season tickets - how would you prove you'd been on a delayed train?

 

[Failed Unit]

Are all the platforms the same length? could apply only when their using certain ones.

They can only use 3 & 4 which I think are the same length, I know the signal on 4 may result in not been able to use the who length. I suspect an 11car Pendo will be in the region of about 10m longer than a mk4 set, which could result in the rear coach having a door off the platform (if the one nearest to the cab is in public use)

 

[northwichcat]

SDO due to platform extensions not being carried out expected at Haymarket, Coventry, Rugby and Wilmslow.

Wilmslow services are expected to remain 9 car.

Its annoying the London centric way its written so everything is 'from Euston', for example one of the questions asking if there should be an extra Euston-Preston service so that the Euston-Glasgow service wont stop in Wigan, however the passenger balance is about 3 times greater Wigan-Scotland than Wigan-Euston passengers! (though true more favor Edinburgh than Glasgow).

That was exactly the problem with Warrington and Crewe in 2008. The Crewe stops were removed from Glasgow-London and Liverpool-London services because the Chester and Manchester to London via Crewe services were enhanced and all called at Crewe. However, both DfT and Virgin failed to realise how many passengers were boarding the Glasgow services at Crewe for Warrington (as well as Wigan, Preston and Lancaster) and just halved the service without listening to people's complaints about the proposed Dec 2008 timetable.

 

[Helvellyn]

Hmm, you could have hourly Euston to Blackpool calling at Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston; then an hourly Euston to Glasgow calling at Watford Junction/Milton Keynes (pick up only, alternate hours), Rugby, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme LD, Penrith NL, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow.

Or what about pairs of Voyagers running London-Preston: one portion going on to Blackpool; another portion to Barrow-in-Furness?

Run the Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services to serve the NW to Scotland, skip-stopping some stations in Cumbria. It'd probably be too complicated for NR to contemplate, but you could run Birmingham-Edinburgh/Manchester Airport-Glasgow one hour and Birmingham-Glasgow/Manchester Aiport-Edinburgh the next hour - have the trains join/split at Wigan NW; split/join at Carstairs.

 

[northwichcat]

Run the Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services to serve the NW to Scotland, skip-stopping some stations in Cumbria. It'd probably be too complicated for NR to contemplate, but you could run Birmingham-Edinburgh/Manchester Airport-Glasgow one hour and Birmingham-Glasgow/Manchester Aiport-Edinburgh the next hour - have the trains join/split at Wigan NW; split/join at Carstairs.

And where would the units come from to do that?

It's been proposed that in 2019 they'll be a portion working from Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Scotland every hour.

However, the new WCML timetable is for 2012 implementation so I doubt you'll get any new units in time.

 

[Lampshade]

Or what about pairs of Voyagers running London-Preston: one portion going on to Blackpool; another portion to Barrow-in-Furness?

That is exactly what they should be doing, rather than the single Voyager service to Lancaster/Blackpool alternate that is proposed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Intrigued about delay repay for season tickets - how would you prove you'd been on a delayed train?

It's a weak area to be sure, but it's been up and ruinning for a few years in a few SE TOCs, so they must know the risks by now. There's apparently a guy started up a website in the London area that sends email reminders to people if any train is late on a route they've registered. But anyone in a delay repay area only has to browse the Live Departure Boards to look for delayed trains anyway.

Being a cynic though, I reckon the financial pros and cons have been considered very carefully, and the whole idea is positive for the TOCs. ISTM that by causing season ticket holders more hassle, as they have to claim for every individual delayed journey, the overall cost to the TOC will reduce, as a reasonable proportion of people will just not bother claiming; and of course there are no charter discounts such as 10% off annual season renewals to factor into the budget anymore...

 

[krus_aragon]

Few people travel to North Wales (on the times I have travelled including at peak times) - more travel to Liverpool which still only has an hourly service would also take out a Voyager running under the wires - free up a path for a higher capacity pendolino

Disregarding the argument of how many people travel from London to North Wales, cancelling North Wales services alone doesn't gain anything as they're effectively extensions of Chester services: you'd have to axe the Chester services as well to free any slots on the WCML.

As I understand it, most Voyager workings out of Euston are doubled-up workings to Chester & Lancashire/N Wales, splitting at either Crewe or Chester. If so, will there be much capacity gained by replacing two Voyagers with a Pendolino?

Your point about diesels under the wires does still stand.

 

[tbtc]

Disregarding the argument of how many people travel from London to North Wales, cancelling North Wales services alone doesn't gain anything as they're effectively extensions of Chester services: you'd have to axe the Chester services as well to free any slots on the WCML.

As I understand it, most Voyager workings out of Euston are doubled-up workings to Chester & Lancashire/N Wales, splitting at either Crewe or Chester. If so, will there be much capacity gained by replacing two Voyagers with a Pendolino?

Your point about diesels under the wires does still stand.

Crewe to Chester is a frustratingly short distance, twenty miles or so, which would free up twenty Voyagers (plus one ATW DMU). Wire it up, give the Chester - Crewe service to LM, and sort out a 57-drag for a token Holyhead service (since there seems to be more will for links from North Wales to South Wales than to London)