Is Scotrail starting to crack down on fare dodging?

[43066]

An example of a fair and proportionate way is a £50 PF on top of paying the fare evaded, via a proper process with statutory appeals.

In my view fare evasion is equivalent in terms of culpability and harm to (say) low value shop lifting. It’s therefore fair and proportionate that it’s classified as a minor criminal offence and treated similarly in terms of sentencing.

Fraud is indeed a more serious offence and remains available as an alternative for prosecution.

Id be interested to know if any surveys have been done - anecdotally I strongly suspect most passengers want to see more enforcement not less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my view fare evasion is equivalent in terms of culpability and harm to (say) low value shop lifting. It’s therefore fair and proportionate that it’s classified as a minor criminal offence and treated similarly in terms of sentencing.

I see it as equivalent to failure to pay for parking, the sums are equivalent and there's no direct loss attributable to the failure to pay unlike theft where not only have you not paid but an item of value has been taken. Thus I see a civil penalty of a similar sum to a parking penalty as appropriate.

However even for theft I don't support private prosecutions and would wish to see England fall in line with Scotland in effectively banning them. Police and CPS with a robust public interest test or not at all. Private prosecutions are mostly used for blackmail, i.e. "give us £100 or so or we'll give you a criminal record and all the faff surrounding it". It should without doubt be a serious criminal offence with prison time to ask for or offer money in order for a prosecution to either be dropped or not be brought; it effectively shows contempt of the justice system, and so I would make it equivalent to contempt of Court. Settlements should be for civil (i.e. purely financial) claims only.

 

[43066]

I see it as equivalent to failure to pay for parking, the sums are equivalent and there's no direct loss attributable to the failure to pay unlike theft where not only have you not paid but an item of value has been taken. Thus I see a civil penalty of a similar sum to a parking penalty as appropriate.

I disagree as there’s an element of dishonesty with fare evasion (not with TfL who I think can prosecute on the basis of strict liability which is more dubious).

Private prosecutions are mostly used for blackmail, i.e. "give us £100 or so or we'll give you a criminal record and all the faff surrounding it".

That isn’t really a fair description of the process, as you’ll only get a criminal record if convicted by a court, the same way as anyone prosecuted by the CPS.

I’d argue the TOCs are more like a mini CPS than a private individual pursuing a vexatious prosecution against someone they simply don’t like, for example.

I’d like to see more effective and consistent enforcement, not just against fare evasion offences but also for things like playing music on loudspeaker.

It should without doubt be a serious criminal offence with prison time to ask for or offer money in order for a prosecution to either be dropped or not be brought

I’m not in complete disagreement with this view, however TV licensing is far worse than the railway in this regard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree as there’s an element of dishonesty with fare evasion (not with TfL who I think can prosecute on the basis of strict liability which is more dubious).

The railway can as well. The Byelaw (rather than RoRA) offence is strict liability. Would you therefore agree that at least this offence should be abolished, and thus to prosecute RoRA would be the only option, thus requiring proof of intent?

That isn’t really a fair description of the process, as you’ll only get a criminal record if convicted by a court, the same way as anyone prosecuted by the CPS.

Magistrates don't always spend enough time analysing cases, and as such unfair prosecutions do happen. Who do you believe, Bob Scally or a suited representative of TIL? The CPS provides a check-and-balance that a private prosecution does not have, one reason why I don't agree with them.

I’d argue the TOCs are more like a mini CPS than a private individual pursuing a vexatious prosecution against someone they simply don’t like, for example.

I wouldn't say they're vexatious, but I would say it's almost tantamount to blackmail. If you want a financial settlement, sue in a civil court (I have no issue with "pay us £100 or we'll sue you in a civil Court for £100+costs", for example). If you want a criminal record, prosecute. The railway cannot be trusted to act as a pseudo CPS.

I’d like to see more effective and consistent enforcement, not just against fare evasion offences but also for things like playing music on loudspeaker.

I would like to see that penalised, yes. For things like that (and feet on seats etc) a statutory fixed penalty not conveying a criminal record like those that were used for COVID or are used for speeding etc would be appropriate. Interestingly Merseyrail apparently want this but the law doesn't provide for it at present.

I’m not in complete disagreement with this view, however TV licensing is far worse than the railway in this regard.

TV licences are outdated and need abolished, as a considerable amount of televisual entertainment is no longer viewed on one. (Debate of what should replace them, if anything, is for another thread!)

 

[duncanp]

This particular, excessive, example of Scotrail fare evasion was reported in the Daily Record in May last year:

Scotrail fare dodger hit with £3000 bill after taking free trains for 53 days

The team at Edinburgh’s Waverley station were altered to the repeated misuse of the Ticket On Departure option.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

No, because some (but not all) Scotrail Guards and ATEs do check tickets, using Covid now as an excuse not to do the job one is paid for is unacceptable.

Yes, the repeated use of the TOD option from the ticket machine at Bellshill to collect tickets from Curriehill or Slateford into Edinburgh Waverley would seem at bit suspicious.

The fare dodger obviously didn't realise that his transactions were being recorded, and in any case most people travelling from Currie or Slateford into Edinburgh would use the more frequent services provided by Lothian Buses.

 

[Starmill]

But there isn't a Scottish Penalty fare system, there literally is no enforcement other than sell a ticket or BTP for huge cases.

So ask the Scottish Parliament to pass a framework upon which one up. Easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

The railway cannot be trusted to act as a pseudo CPS.

It would surely be better for everyone involved if prosecution always lay with the CPS, and they were provided the appropriate resources to make the right decision on whether to take each case forward. That's literally supposed to be their expertise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

TV licences are outdated and need abolished, as a considerable amount of televisual entertainment is no longer viewed on one. (Debate of what should replace them, if anything, is for another thread!)

It was so frustrating that they were going to go ahead with decriminalisation and then got cold feet. However, yes, it would be much better for everyone if they were just abolished, subject to the negotiation about how to replace the funding.

The government recently decided in favour of changing the Statutory Instrument for Penalty Fares in England to go to the proposed correct fare plus £50 / £100 for late payment surcharge approach. This in itself may help somewhat. Pay as you go also makes evasion less likely because people who chance it rather than miss their train, or who are just absent minded and forget, are more likely to touch in than to use a ticket machine.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Seriously?!?

Surely its obvious you have to pay for anything you make use of provided by a company (be that goods - shopping etc, or a service - transport, accommodation etc etc). Non-payment for any of those is obviously a crime, so why isn't it obvious that fare evasion is?

Unless you mean that it is a criminal rather than civil offence? That I could understand.

Not paying for goods is not necessarily a crime. I used to work for a mail order company and if you order something on credit and never pay a penny it is a civil matter and not a criminal one. A lot of people did their homework and knew this with some offers targeted at certain groups resulting in over 50% of sales not having any payments made. I suspect many of the people who did it wouldn't have dreamed of shoplifting but knew nothing would happen to them if they did it via credit.

However, I do agree that most people are well aware fare dodging is a crime but most think they will get off lightly. I would say there are more threads on here from people who thought they would simply get away with having to pay a Penalty Fare rather than be prosecuted than their are who genuinely didn't realise their actions were criminal.

 

[Starmill]

Not paying for goods is not necessarily a crime. I used to work for a mail order company and if you order something on credit and never pay a penny it is a civil matter and not a criminal one. A lot of people did their homework and knew this with some offers targeted at certain groups resulting in over 50% of sales not having any payments made. I suspect many of the people who did it wouldn't have dreamed of shoplifting but knew nothing would happen to them if they did it via credit.

However, I do agree that most people are well aware fare dodging is a crime but most think they will get off lightly. I would say there are more threads on here from people who thought they would simply get away with having to pay a Penalty Fare rather than be prosecuted than their are who genuinely didn't realise their actions were criminal.

Indeed - for the most part an unpaid debt by itself is not a criminal matter. There may be some exceptions such as council tax.

Of course, it's still possible even without a criminal conviction for debts to be collected on by means of a bailiff visit or an order for a deduction from benefits etc.

 

[Edsmith]

I’ve spent two weeks in Berlin and used the trains pretty much every day. I was ticket checked once. 5 or 6 plan clothes guys appeared out of nowhere and checked all tickets. There was no escaping the checks

At the time I was with a tour group and chatting to the tour guide who was from Berlin. He told that they had an honour based system with no barriers at all and regular plan clothes fare inspectors.

No idea if this bit was true or not but he told me that the plan clothes guys would March tourists to the nearest cash point to pay the fine if they didn’t have a properly validated ticket. He told not the system worked well

I'd take the notion of tourists being marched to cash points with a pinch of salt. I'm sure that if ticket gates are ever installed throughout the system there would be a considerable increase in income just as there was when open boarding was abolished on buses in Berlin.

 

[newguy]

I'd take the notion of tourists being marched to cash points with a pinch of salt. I'm sure that if ticket gates are ever installed throughout the system there would be a considerable increase in income just as there was when open boarding was abolished on buses in Berlin.

I was a bit sceptical of that but it wouldn’t surprise me if the airport lines were regularly targeted.

 

[Runningaround]

Last time I was in Berlin fare evasion seemed rife with no ticket gates and on board checks seemingly very rare.

How do you know this? Do those who've bought tickets show them all the time, you have no Idea what they have in their pocket.

 

[Edsmith]

How do you know this? Do those who've bought tickets show them all the time, you have no Idea what they have in their pocket.

Natives told me fare evasion was rife which is why open boarding on buses was abolished........... and a considerable increase in revenue followed.

 

[Sirius]

Yes, the repeated use of the TOD option from the ticket machine at Bellshill to collect tickets from Curriehill or Slateford into Edinburgh Waverley would seem at bit suspicious.

The fare dodger obviously didn't realise that his transactions were being recorded, and in any case most people travelling from Currie or Slateford into Edinburgh would use the more frequent services provided by Lothian Buses.

I suspect that reduced passenger numbers during Covid made it easier for Scotrail to devote resource to looking for anomalies in the TODs and associated CCTV.

In 2018 I exploited a ticketing loophole (supported by the routing guide, and NR website gave an itinerary) and bought my tickets in person at Glasgow Queen Street simply because at my local stations it’d stick out as odd to a member of staff or anyone looking at machine logs. It was also a natural place to buy the ticket in question for the more conventional journey using it.

I think the abolition of paper carnets (people chancing a ‘return’ on one ticket if unchecked) and more widespread use of ticket gates has made short faring the remaining option to root out.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I think the abolition of paper carnets (people chancing a ‘return’ on one ticket if unchecked) and more widespread use of ticket gates has made short faring the remaining option to root out.

Anecdotally, having read this forum for some time, I'd say the 3 most common types of evasion are:

1. Short-faring (/doughnutting)
2. Misuse of railcards
3. Misuse of privilege cards

If it was me in the theoretical position of choosing which to concentrate on, in order to reduce evasion, it would definitely be short-faring. How you actually go about that is a question for someone smarter than I, however.

 

[Trainbike46]

The inspectors are plain clothed but it's fairly easy to recognise them, they behave in a manner that almost gets you texting 61016.

This is absolutely true. I was once ticket-checked in Berlin while on a school trip and me and the teacher genuinely ran away from the ticket inspector because of how scary he looked. Only when he called out to us asking for our tickets did we realise that he was just checking tickets, which we then showed him

 

[Edsmith]

Anecdotally, having read this forum for some time, I'd say the 3 most common types of evasion are:

1. Short-faring (/doughnutting)
2. Misuse of railcards
3. Misuse of privilege cards

If it was me in the theoretical position of choosing which to concentrate on, in order to reduce evasion, it would definitely be short-faring. How you actually go about that is a question for someone smarter than I, however.

I'd say the most common, certainly on Southeastern, is just not paying at all with ticket gates often left open and on-board checks being rather hit and miss since the pandemic.

 

[Hadders]

Anecdotally, having read this forum for some time, I'd say the 3 most common types of evasion are:

1. Short-faring (/doughnutting)
2. Misuse of railcards
3. Misuse of privilege cards

If it was me in the theoretical position of choosing which to concentrate on, in order to reduce evasion, it would definitely be short-faring. How you actually go about that is a question for someone smarter than I, however.

Pay when challenged seems to be a significant problem. Basically people buy a ticket on their smartphone when the ticket inspector appears. Now that the handheld device can identify tickets purchased after the train departs lots of people are being caught out.

 

[Kite159]

Pay when challenged seems to be a significant problem. Basically people buy a ticket on their smartphone when the ticket inspector appears. Now that the handheld device can identify tickets purchased after the train departs lots of people are being caught out.

And for those short faring from a station with barriers trying to use an e-ticket which hasn't been marked for entry.

I.e. Someone trying to exit Birmingham New Street with a ticket from Five Ways which is showing as not being scanned on the gates at Five Ways. Etc

 

[sk688]

And for those short faring from a station with barriers trying to use an e-ticket which hasn't been marked for entry.

I.e. Someone trying to exit Birmingham New Street with a ticket from Five Ways which is showing as not being scanned on the gates at Five Ways. Etc

Although people of course get around this , by buying e-tickets starting from a station which is unbarriered.

 

[Parallel]

I made a few journeys in the Central Belt earlier this year, and I was really shocked at the amount of blatant fare evasion - it was nearly every train. I was on one somewhere between Dumfries and Kilmarnock where the guard was carrying out a ticket check, and got to a group sitting at the table and one of the group said "sorry, we're not buying any tickets today" and the guard just huffed and carried on walking.

There was another guy who got on at Whifflet towards Cumbernauld who actually wanted the Glasgow train and had no wallet or phone, just a bus pass which "the police have taken". Quite clearly, a lot of effort and resources would be needed to stop fare evasion on some of these routes.