Is Scotrail starting to crack down on fare dodging?

[newguy]

I will start by saying I always pay the correct fare. Recently on a train, I noticed a Scotrail poster advising the success the company was having at catching fare dodgers. You never see anybody on this forum asking for advice on how to deal with a letter from Scotrail.

In my time travelling I’ve only ever seen one block at Johnstone station where everybody had to show a ticket before travelling. Fare dodging seems to be rampant on my local line. People getting to Glasgow central and then buying a ticket from Pollokshields East the last stop before Central, when they have come much further. Also on a lot of lines there ain’t ticket barriers and people seem to jump on the train and only pay if challenged.

But posters ain’t going to work. Is Scotrail finally starting to take this issue seriously? What can Scotrail do to crack down on fare dodging?

 

[hexagon789]

What can Scotrail do to crack down on fare dodging?

Implement penalty fares scheme?

Stop selling discounted tickets on board even when signs on stations say they won't be sold on board. (Obviously usual caveats re method of payment and availability of paying in advance on that one.)

 

[AlterEgo]

You never see anybody on this forum asking for advice on how to deal with a letter from Scotrail.

Because the law and court process is different in Scotland and private prosecutions are extremely rare.

 

[Watershed]

Because the law and court process is different in Scotland and private prosecutions are extremely rare.

Private prosecutions at all are extremely rare - each such prosecution requires its own bill of criminal letters from the High Court of Justiciary. It's only happened twice in the last century.

Private prosecutions in relation to fare evasion simply don't happen. Any serious fares offences on the railway (e.g. organised fraud) is dealt with by the BTP.

A model of how it should be done in England and Wales, if I may say so...

 

[Kite159]

I believe some of those posters being referred to are something along the lines of:
"Mr B was caught travelling from Bellshill to Edinburgh, misusing TOD to collect Curriehill - Edinburgh tickets"
or someone being caught buying multiple weekly seasons from Edinburgh Park to Edinburgh when travelling from Livingstone North

So I suspect when down the fraud route with the BTP.

But I agree, fare evasion seems rampant on some lines in Scotland, not helped by the long period where Scotrail weren't doing on-board revenue checks, leaving only the ticket barriers, which are easy to bypass by simply buying a ticket to/from the closest station. They know the worse that could happen is to pay the anytime fare, which on some routes isn't that much more expensive than the off-peak fares. Maybe Scotrail could bring in a Swiss (?) style "onboard premium" if you don't buy before you board and have a valid reason.

 

[newguy]

Because the law and court process is different in Scotland and private prosecutions are extremely rare.

Implement penalty fares scheme?

Stop selling discounted tickets on board even when signs on stations say they won't be sold on board. (Obviously usual caveats re method of payment and availability of paying in advance on that one.)

I hadn’t realised that Scotrail didn’t have the same powers as there counterparts down south

I think implementing a penalty fares scheme would be a good start. If people knew the consequences for travelling without a ticket was costly and that they were likely to be caught, then getting a ticket would be a no brainier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

Private prosecutions at all are extremely rare - each such prosecution requires its own bill of criminal letters from the High Court of Justiciary. It's only happened twice in the last century.

Private prosecutions in relation to fare evasion simply don't happen. Any serious fares offences on the railway (e.g. organised fraud) is dealt with by the BTP.

A model of how it should be done in England and Wales, if I may say so...

The problem here is that fare dodging seems to be absolutely rampant up here. it’s even worst than before cOvid. I can of course only really talk about my own line.

at a time when the railways need income I think they should be trying to tackle it more

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

I believe some of those posters being referred to are something along the lines of:
"Mr B was caught travelling from Bellshill to Edinburgh, misusing TOD to collect Curriehill - Edinburgh tickets"
or someone being caught buying multiple weekly seasons from Edinburgh Park to Edinburgh when travelling from Livingstone North

So I suspect when down the fraud route with the BTP.

But I agree, fare evasion seems rampant on some lines in Scotland, not helped by the long period where Scotrail weren't doing on-board revenue checks, leaving only the ticket barriers, which are easy to bypass by simply buying a ticket to/from the closest station. They know the worse that could happen is to pay the anytime fare, which on some routes isn't that much more expensive than the off-peak fares. Maybe Scotrail could bring in a Swiss (?) style "onboard premium" if you don't buy before you board and have a valid reason.

That could work Or the system they have in Berlin seems very effective as well

 

[RPI]

Private prosecutions at all are extremely rare - each such prosecution requires its own bill of criminal letters from the High Court of Justiciary. It's only happened twice in the last century.

Private prosecutions in relation to fare evasion simply don't happen. Any serious fares offences on the railway (e.g. organised fraud) is dealt with by the BTP.

A model of how it should be done in England and Wales, if I may say so...

Clearly the level of blatant fare evasion in Scotland shows why private prosecutions in England and Wales are actually needed, the BTP don't have the time and resources to deal with fare evasion, blatant fare evasion has been rife in Scotland, particularly the central belt for as long as I remember because there simply is no deterrent.

 

[Watershed]

Clearly the level of blatant fare evasion in Scotland shows why private prosecutions in England and Wales are actually needed, the BTP don't have the time and resources to deal with fare evasion, blatant fare evasion has been rife in Scotland, particularly the central belt for as long as I remember because there simply is no deterrent.

Fare evasion prosecutions aren't very widely publicised. I doubt they serve as much a deterrent to would-be offenders (witness, for instance, the number of people who have no idea that fare evasion is even a crime).

The correct approach to tackling fare evasion is to have frequent on-train checks. Of course that's hard work, so TOCs prefer just to criminalise their customers and extort settlements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly the level of blatant fare evasion in Scotland shows why private prosecutions in England and Wales are actually needed, the BTP don't have the time and resources to deal with fare evasion, blatant fare evasion has been rife in Scotland, particularly the central belt for as long as I remember because there simply is no deterrent.

No, it doesn't. It shows why ScotRail should implement decriminalised Penalty Fares and pursue the debt through civil Courts if unpaid.

What the BTP should be involved in is, as in this case, fraud and falsification, which are general offences which should follow the normal processes for those offences, not private prosecutions. But they are a tiny minority of fare dodging, which is mostly simple failure to buy a ticket.

I would strongly advocate moving to the Scottish system of private prosecution in England/Wales. The system is grossly abused for effective blackmail, i.e. the extortion of settlements.

 

[hexagon789]

witness, for instance, the number of people who have no idea that fare evasion is even a crime

Seriously?!?

Surely its obvious you have to pay for anything you make use of provided by a company (be that goods - shopping etc, or a service - transport, accommodation etc etc). Non-payment for any of those is obviously a crime, so why isn't it obvious that fare evasion is?

Unless you mean that it is a criminal rather than civil offence? That I could understand.

 

[Watershed]

Seriously?!?

Surely its obvious you have to pay for anything you make use of provided by a company (be that goods - shopping etc, or a service - transport, accommodation etc etc). Non-payment for any of those is obviously a crime, so why isn't it obvious that fare evasion is?

Unless you mean that it is a criminal rather than civil offence? That I could understand.

There's no such thing as a 'civil offence'. It's either a crime or it's not. Most crimes also carry an associated civil liability, but you can be civilly liable for something without it being a criminal offence - breach of contract would be the classic example. Equally, you can be guilty of a crime without having any civil liability - such as a "paperwork" offence. So the two aren't intrinsically linked.

Coming back to the salient point, it clearly isn't obvious to everyone that fares irregularities - or indeed the mere act of boarding a train ticketless - can constitute a criminal offence.

 

[2192]

"Or the system they have in Berlin seems very effective as well"

What's the system they have in Berlin?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no such thing as a 'civil offence'. It's either a crime or it's not. Most crimes also carry an associated civil liability, but you can be civilly liable for something without it being a criminal offence - breach of contract would be the classic example. Equally, you can be guilty of a crime without having any civil liability - such as a "paperwork" offence. So the two aren't intrinsically linked.

Coming back to the salient point, it clearly isn't obvious to everyone that fares irregularities - or indeed the mere act of boarding a train ticketless - can constitute a criminal offence.

It isn't analogous to theft, but rather to the likes of parking enforcement, which is decriminalised.

 

[mikeg]

"Or the system they have in Berlin seems very effective as well"

What's the system they have in Berlin?

Not sure in Berlin in specific but in Germany in general it's a hybrid offence. If a person picks up more than 3 penalty fares in a specific period of time this can then lead to prosecution

 

[Edsmith]

Not sure in Berlin in specific but in Germany in general it's a hybrid offence. If a person picks up more than 3 penalty fares in a specific period of time this can then lead to prosecution

Last time I was in Berlin fare evasion seemed rife with no ticket gates and on board checks seemingly very rare.

 

[RPI]

No, it doesn't. It shows why ScotRail should implement decriminalised Penalty Fares and pursue the debt through civil Courts if unpaid.

What the BTP should be involved in is, as in this case, fraud and falsification, which are general offences which should follow the normal processes for those offences, not private prosecutions. But they are a tiny minority of fare dodging, which is mostly simple failure to buy a ticket.

I would strongly advocate moving to the Scottish system of private prosecution in England/Wales. The system is grossly abused for effective blackmail, i.e. the extortion of settlements.

But there isn't a Scottish Penalty fare system, there literally is no enforcement other than sell a ticket or BTP for huge cases.

I would argue that its not blackmail either as its a real threat, a pre court settlement is simply a way for both parties to avoid court and is beneficial to both parties too.

though I would concede that certain TOC's with their "Penalty Fake" were extracting the urine and certainly using the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it... though the TOC in question has now implemented a proper PF scheme.

Fare evasion prosecutions aren't very widely publicised. I doubt they serve as much a deterrent to would-be offenders (witness, for instance, the number of people who have no idea that fare evasion is even a crime).

The correct approach to tackling fare evasion is to have frequent on-train checks. Of course that's hard work, so TOCs prefer just to criminalise their customers and extort settlements.

Agreed on train checks is part of the solution and there are far too many lazy guards across the whole of the UK (and before the lazy guard apologists start, I've got 20 years experience of watching it first hand) but on train checks with just being sold a ticket creates no deterrent.

The vast majority of prosecutions that actually end in court are for people who ignore letters/don't pay Penalty Fares/Unpaid Fare notices or large multi case e ticket abuses in my experience.
Of the times I've had to attend court for such (not that many in 20 years to be fair) its mostly cases where the defendant didn't think the railway would actually bother chasing up a Penalty Fare or going after a £4 ticket, basically to end up actually in court you have ignored various opportunities to avoid it.

Back before we had a Penalty Fare (PF) scheme in Wessex Trains days the amount of opportunist fare evasion was massive, working a train on the Cornish mainline you would have more people boarding without tickets from staffed stations than boarding with tickets, now its only the hard core as people know the chances of being stopped and dealt with are higher, what does that matter one may ask? Well, its revenue thats at risk every day where just a simple thing like a short formation can result in a huge revenue loss or a broken ticket machine.

I would also dispute the generalisation that people don't know its a criminal matter, they very much do but a lot believe that the railway won't bother with the hassle of chasing it up.

I appreciate we have differing views on this from our previous postings and we clearly both speak with inside knowledge of the system and we'll more than likely have to agree to disagree

 

[sannox]

Stop selling discounted tickets on board even when signs on stations say they won't be sold on board. (Obviously usual caveats re method of payment and availability of paying in advance on that one.)

The issue is the caveats and staff not wanting confrontation. If two people board without tickets from the same stop going to the same place and one gives you £10 and one asks to card it, I can imagine how hard to give two separate prices if someone is going to get annoyed about it.

Actually I'd say part of the issue is the lack of staff doing on-board checks these days. Covid accepted, most of the time guards and TEs regularly roamed the trains and tickets would regularly get checked - even if it was just leaving Central or Waverley. I'd say this needs to be brought back and it was good for deterring incidents.

 

[Edsmith]

The issue is the caveats and staff not wanting confrontation. If two people board without tickets from the same stop going to the same place and one gives you £10 and one asks to card it, I can imagine how hard to give two separate prices if someone is going to get annoyed about it.

Actually I'd say part of the issue is the lack of staff doing on-board checks these days. Covid accepted, most of the time guards and TEs regularly roamed the trains and tickets would regularly get checked - even if it was just leaving Central or Waverley. I'd say this needs to be brought back and it was good for deterring incidents.

I don’t know what the staff/union position is regarding on board ticket checks but with covid still about couldn't guards just say that they are putting themselves at undue risk checking tickets and coming into close proximity to people and stay in the back cab?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there isn't a Scottish Penalty fare system, there literally is no enforcement other than sell a ticket or BTP for huge cases.

There needs to be a PF system in Scotland.

I would argue that its not blackmail either as its a real threat, a pre court settlement is simply a way for both parties to avoid court and is beneficial to both parties too.

I'd agree if sueing for a sum of money in the civil Court, but where criminal charges are involved I retain my view that it's effectively blackmail. If prosecution is in the public interest it should always proceed to Court with no party able to request it be stopped. If it isn't, it should not proceed.

I do generally advise people on the D&P Forum to pay them, but that's pragmatic. It makes sense to hand your wallet over if someone pulls a knife on you, too.

though I would concede that certain TOC's with their "Penalty Fake" were extracting the urine and certainly using the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it... though the TOC in question has now implemented a proper PF scheme.

Yes, that TOC were "taking the mick" then. It does still happen, though - in particular being rude to an inspector often results in a PF being escalated to a prosecution, and that isn't acceptable either - either a PF should apply or it should not, with a strict set of written rules defining that. Being rude to people isn't what one should do, but it isn't in itself a crime unless it proceeds to obscenity or verbal assault, and those offences have their own charge which should be used, in conjunction with the BTP, if they are breached and a prosecution is in the public interest.

Prosecution is a very strong tool and should only be used with proper safeguards, which sadly the possibility for private prosecution in England and Wales tends to remove, and often the costs of defending a case are prohibitive.

Perhaps a safeguard could be introduced by creating a "railway CPS" to professionally manage such cases - kind of like TIL but actually professional and not shysters. Probably easier just to remove the Byelaw and RoRA offences in favour of PFs, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

I don’t know what the staff/union position is regarding on board ticket checks but with covid still about couldn't guards just say that they are putting themselves at undue risk checking tickets and coming into close proximity to people and stay in the back cab?

LNR south WCML guards (for example) have mostly been lazy and failing to do tickets since long before COVID was a glint in a Wuhan bat's eye. The odd few do, but most don't. I suspect most people think the south WCML is DOO.

I'll excuse the Marston Vale because you lose time if you work from anywhere other than the cab due to the slow doors, but on the mainline there's really no excuse.

 

[Falcon1200]

Fare evasion prosecutions aren't very widely publicised.

This particular, excessive, example of Scotrail fare evasion was reported in the Daily Record in May last year:

Scotrail fare dodger hit with £3000 bill after taking free trains for 53 days

The team at Edinburgh’s Waverley station were altered to the repeated misuse of the Ticket On Departure option.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

I don’t know what the staff/union position is regarding on board ticket checks but with covid still about couldn't guards just say that they are putting themselves at undue risk checking tickets and coming into close proximity to people and stay in the back cab?

No, because some (but not all) Scotrail Guards and ATEs do check tickets, using Covid now as an excuse not to do the job one is paid for is unacceptable.

 

[Watershed]

This particular, excessive, example of Scotrail fare evasion was reported in the Daily Record in May last year:

Yes, but it wasn't spelled out what the consequences would be if the passenger had decided not to cough up.

 

[davetheguard]

Last time I was in Berlin fare evasion seemed rife with no ticket gates and on board checks seemingly very rare.

Just because there are no ticket gates in Berlin, and on-board checks appear to be rare, doesn't necessarily mean that fare evasion is "rife".

Geoff Marshall touched on the subject in one of his videos on Youtube which featured him riding round on the Berlin U- & S-Bahn. The ticket inspectors are plain clothed so you don't see them coming, and if memory serves me correctly, the penalty fare equated to about the cost of a monthly season ticket. That sounds like quite a deterrent.

Perhaps ScotRail needs something similar?

 

[Edsmith]

Just because there are no ticket gates in Berlin, and on-board checks appear to be rare, doesn't necessarily mean that fare evasion is "rife".

Geoff Marshall touched on the subject in one of his videos on Youtube which featured him riding round on the Berlin U- & S-Bahn. The ticket inspectors are plain clothed so you don't see them coming, and if memory serves me correctly, the penalty fare equated to about the cost of a monthly season ticket. That sounds like quite a deterrent.

Perhaps ScotRail needs something similar?

I was told by natives that fare evasion was rife, I didn't encounter any ticket checks during my time there and this was pre covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because there are no ticket gates in Berlin, and on-board checks appear to be rare, doesn't necessarily mean that fare evasion is "rife".

It absolutely is. Schwarzfahren is a national sport in Germany.

Other countries are rapidly learning from us (and Paris) that gatelines are the best way to reduce it.

The inspectors are plain clothed but it's fairly easy to recognise them, they behave in a manner that almost gets you texting 61016.

 

[davetheguard]

I was told by natives that fare evasion was rife, I didn't encounter any ticket checks during my time there and this was pre covid.

I've never had my ticket checked on the two times I've been to Berlin either.

However, the fares seem cheap by British standards, so I should think there's perhaps less incentive to try it on?

The German equivalent of the "man on the Clapham omnibus" may, or may not, be correct in his/her assertions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

It absolutely is. Schwarzfahren is a national sport in Germany.

Other countries are rapidly learning from us (and Paris) that gatelines are the best way to reduce it.

Black travel, black journeys? Sounds like a good name for it.

I'm not sure that the unmanned barriers I've seen in Paris do much to reduce it considering the amount of people I've seen jumping over them!

Meanwhile, back to Scotland...............

 

[danm14]

Yes, that TOC were "taking the mick" then. It does still happen, though - in particular being rude to an inspector often results in a PF being escalated to a prosecution, and that isn't acceptable either - either a PF should apply or it should not, with a strict set of written rules defining that. Being rude to people isn't what one should do, but it isn't in itself a crime unless it proceeds to obscenity or verbal assault, and those offences have their own charge which should be used, in conjunction with the BTP, if they are breached and a prosecution is in the public interest.

I think another issue with the status quo is whether it is unfair through unconscious bias to certain groups of passengers through no fault of their own.

Are passengers suffering from autism or social anxiety, for example, more likely to fail the attitude test because traits associated with their condition are misperceived as rudeness?

Making eye contact with a person who is accusing you of wrongdoing is considered highly rude in many African and Asian cultures, but to not make eye contact in that circumstance is considered highly rude in the UK.

In London, is a working class person from the north west of England more likely to fail the attitude test than a middle class person from London when making the same point because the language and tone they use is more likely to be perceived as rude?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think another issue with the status quo is whether it is unfair through unconscious bias to certain groups of passengers through no fault of their own.

Are passengers suffering from autism or social anxiety, for example, more likely to fail the attitude test because traits associated with their condition are misperceived as rudeness?

Making eye contact with a person who is accusing you of wrongdoing is considered highly rude in many African and Asian cultures, but to not make eye contact in that circumstance is considered highly rude in the UK.

In London, is a working class person from the north west of England more likely to fail the attitude test than a middle class person from London when making the same point because the language and tone they use is more likely to be perceived as rude?

Yes, all this is very likely. Really the "attitude test" should be binned, and except if someone has actually been so rude/violent/threatening as to commit another offence (in which case they should be prosecuted via BTP and the CPS for that offence separately from the ticketing matter) they should be dealt with by the exact same clear, written procedure regardless of whether they might come across as your friendly little old Nan, a chavvy and mouthy tracksuited kid, a suited and booted businessperson or a massive bald-headed thug with several aggressive dogs in tow.

I did hear of a case of Merseyrail's rentathugs refusing travel to someone they said was drunk, but in fact had consumed no alcohol but had a balance related disability. A reasonable adjustment for an autistic person is to be clear, concise and follow the rules to the letter regardless of how they may speak (or even not speak, if nonverbal).

 

[43066]

Fare evasion prosecutions aren't very widely publicised. I doubt they serve as much a deterrent to would-be offenders (witness, for instance, the number of people who have no idea that fare evasion is even a crime).

The correct approach to tackling fare evasion is to have frequent on-train checks. Of course that's hard work, so TOCs prefer just to criminalise their customers and extort settlements.

Do you think most honest fare paying passengers want to see fare dodgers let off, or treated more harshly?

It’s an odd dichotomy on this website that the same people who are against fare evasion being a crime often seem to be the ones complaining about lost revenue/high costs on other threads!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think most honest fare paying passengers want to see fare dodgers let off, or treated more harshly?

I want to see them penalised in a fair and proportionate way. An example of a fair and proportionate way is a £50 PF on top of paying the fare evaded, via a proper process with statutory appeals. If unpaid this should be pursued in civil Court using debt collectors/Court bailiffs if necessary.

If someone is committing fraud, e.g. by falsifying tickets, they should be convicted of that offence via the BTP and CPS as per any other fraud, if prosecution is seen by the CPS as in the public good.

Byelaw and RoRA clauses regarding fares should be repealed, and Transport Investigations Ltd should be closed as once this was done it would have no reason to exist. Ideally, all private prosecution should be abolished in England and Wales totally.

 

[newguy]

I’ve spent two weeks in Berlin and used the trains pretty much every day. I was ticket checked once. 5 or 6 plan clothes guys appeared out of nowhere and checked all tickets. There was no escaping the checks

At the time I was with a tour group and chatting to the tour guide who was from Berlin. He told that they had an honour based system with no barriers at all and regular plan clothes fare inspectors.

No idea if this bit was true or not but he told me that the plan clothes guys would March tourists to the nearest cash point to pay the fine if they didn’t have a properly validated ticket. He told not the system worked well