Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[Mcr Warrior]

I can buy ANY ticket online, I cant buy the same at a ticket office, remember part of the ticket fares are going towards the ticket offices running costs yet they are unable/unwilling to do the work I can do online.

Can you actually buy change of route excesses online?

 

[Runningaround]

Condition 2.5 of the railcard T&Cs (using 16-25 as an example, details may vary) says otherwise. It says you may be asked to provide your Railcard at point or purchase. Not must, but may, and if you are, then you need to show it *shrug*

How do you show the computer your railcard? And what is stopping me buying for a 24 year old with a railcard and sending it too them, or handing it them at the time of travel? What's stopping me buying the ticket and emailing or sending it to their account to download.
Or has the railway put up a barrier to prevent you doing theirs with a 16-25 card yet allows me to do all of it online with a Senior, family or Cambrian Card?

I'm not travelling on it. Even if a ticket is in my wallet for later use(like my ticket collected at a tvm card for the old man next month) It's none of the guards or RPI's business.
What is theirs is do I have the correct ticket and railcard for the journey I'm doing at that time.

 

[Runningaround]

Can you actually buy change of route excesses online?

Never had to and never needed to, but I guess if I change my journey during the trip and I can only do that off a guard or booking office and cannot say use my current online ticket to do so change it in the same way, then it's the Railway Making life Difficult the topic of the thread.
Can you sell me a ticket through London on the train that works the barriers without having to hassle the underground staff to let me through? It might be way passed Wolverhampton before I've seen a guard on a train while going to Euston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==

Condition 2.5 of the railcard T&Cs (using 16-25 as an example, details may vary) says otherwise. It says you may be asked to provide your Railcard at point or purchase. Not must, but may, and if you are, then you need to show it *shrug*

Will you be popping round my house to make sure I've got the railcard when buying it?

 

[Fokx]

You just don't buy at all if you want free travel and face the consequences if they happen. Or just short fare if there's a barrier or guard expected, you won't get into bother with a ticket unless your beyond the station, why bother paying for a railcard discounted ticket if your intention is to avoid the correct fare you would get caught even short faring that way?
You'd be at risk 100% of the time of being caught without a railcard and discounted ticket and it'd be seen as nothing more than a deliberate attempt to avoid the correct fare.
You'd be at risk for the time after your short fared station has passed and can pass it off as missing the stop or falling asleep, at least you have a valid ticket to that stop.

Because it actually happens, I deal with it on average around 3 times every month during ticket checks.

“…and your railcard”
“I don’t have one”
“The. why did you buy a railcard discount ticket?”
“Errrr…”

 

[ComUtoR]

Its the title of the thread and I agree with it.

Does the railway make it difficult...yeah, for sure. It needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. Is that gonna happen ? Probably not, there isn't an incentive to do it.

Does the railway enjoy it ? Well that's an entirely different question. No it doesn't. Firstly because it's an inanimate concept. The "railway" doesn't have feelings. Generally it's an uncaring, monolithic beast.

That brush people seem to love painting "The Railway" with is filled with tar and bitter tears.

I would say that 99.9% of the railway do not "enjoy" making life difficult. I, like many others, want an easy life. Do I like it when my train runs late, or I'm cancelled because the PA isn't working ? Of course not. I want to come in and do my job. "The railway" runs on rules and procedures. Many I do not believe in or think are right. Many seem silly when looking in from the outside but make complete sense from an insider. However, I take no pleasure when it makes life "difficult"

We can work together to bring change or we can play internet warriors and fight it out. Most people know which I'd prefer.

 

[43066]

I just checked the senior railcard conditions:
"2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets."
Compare that with:
"2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel."

Only one of those terms says "must".

You can see how that at least confers discretion at the point of sale - ie on purchasing a ticket you may be asked to show the railcard but if you say “I haven’t got one yet because I intend to buy it closer to when I actually use the ticket”, that could be a legitimate reason not to show it.

On the other hand if you are travelling with a railcard discounted ticket you must show the railcard on demand.

 

[Deerfold]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

You've not read the rest of the thread?

 

[LowLevel]

Never had to and never needed to, but I guess if I change my journey during the trip and I can only do that off a guard or booking office and cannot say use my current online ticket to do so change it in the same way, then it's the Railway Making life Difficult the topic of the thread.
Can you sell me a ticket through London on the train that works the barriers without having to hassle the underground staff to let me through? It might be way passed Wolverhampton before I've seen a guard on a train while going to Euston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==


Will you be popping round my house to make sure I've got the railcard when buying it?

Nope, because I don't care and I'm not a booking clerk. I'm just pointing out what the condition actually says on the matter.

 

[Runningaround]

Does the railway make it difficult...yeah, for sure. It needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. Is that gonna happen ? Probably not, there isn't an incentive to do it.

Does the railway enjoy it ? Well that's an entirely different question. No it doesn't. Firstly because it's an inanimate concept. The "railway" doesn't have feelings. Generally it's an uncaring, monolithic beast.

That brush people seem to love painting "The Railway" with is filled with tar and bitter tears.

I would say that 99.9% of the railway do not "enjoy" making life difficult. I, like many others, want an easy life. Do I like it when my train runs late, or I'm cancelled because the PA isn't working ? Of course not. I want to come in and do my job. "The railway" runs on rules and procedures. Many I do not believe in or think are right. Many seem silly when looking in from the outside but make complete sense from an insider. However, I take no pleasure when it makes life "difficult"

We can work together to bring change or we can play internet warriors and fight it out. Most people know which I'd prefer.

But this thread along with the ticket office one(which is by and large identical)here is three weeks old and you have booking office staff contradicting themselves even after having time to think about what there posting and they are confusing themselves when responding to posters (I'm not one but can find my way round)who have a sound knowledge of railways and ticketing.
What chance have they got of offering an acceptable and fair service to those at the station buying a ticket.
What they are failing too see is that the ability is online to buy without the interference of ticket office staff and it's rules or their mood on that day.

The staff on here would say ''you cannot buy this ticket as you forgot your railcard'' when it should be ''you can buy a ticket but you need your railcard when you travel''
Or ''I want a few tickets for my journey including one for a few days away split at x for y'' the response from some here is ''Oh that's an awkward split from stations I'm unfamiliar with'' ''I can't sell you it'' which really means ''they cannot be bothered''
If a forum member with extensive knowledge turns up at the counter it becomes a war of words, which is of no help to anybody.

The whole point of this thread and the ticket office one is to outline and ask why is it so awkward to do something with trained members of decently paid staff, when you can do exactly the same at home in your own time. To anyone that doesn't make sense. Why can't the booking office access exactly the same thing the passenger uses, in fact they should have more.

And there are staff who relish catching a passenger with the wrong ticket who isn't intending the to evade the fare, if a group of ticketless passengers on a night out intimidated them and get away Scot free they seek revenge on the 16 year old out on their own.

 

[Runningaround]

Nope, because I don't care and I'm not a booking clerk. I'm just pointing out what the condition actually says on the matter.

Shouldn't the condition apply to online, TVM', on train and booking offices. I can buy a railcard discounted ticket at home but not a booking office, where is the sense in that?

 

[dk1]

You've not read the rest of the thread?

It’s tiresome.

 

[Llanigraham]

Nobody has, but I DO NOT NEED TO PROVIDE A RAILCARD AT POINT OF PURCHASE, only at point of travel the only point of obstruction is the booking office clerk, so I avoid them and buy online.

I've just checked the T & C's for my Disabled Persons Railcard and that quite clearly states that you may be asked to show it when purchasing tickets. See Sect 2.5 below.

Disabled Persons Railcard Terms & Conditions​

1. Introduction

1.1. These terms and conditions (“Railcard Conditions”) apply to the use of the Disabled Persons Railcard and reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with the Disabled Persons Railcard.

1.2. In addition to the Railcard Conditions, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (“NRCoT”) apply to any journey on the rail network. Where the NRCoT conflict with these Railcard Conditions, the NRCoT override the Railcard Conditions. Copies of the NRCoT are available online at nationalrail.co.uk/nrcot or at staffed National Rail stations.

1.3. These Railcard Conditions form a contract between you and ATOC Ltd (Registered in England and Wales No. 03069033, Company Registered Office: 2nd Floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4HD). ATOC Ltd enters into this contract on behalf of the train companies listed at railcard.co.uk/traincompanies (“Train Companies”).

1.4. Train Companies shall have rights under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 to enforce any of these Railcard Conditions.

1.5. These Railcard Conditions are valid up to and including 03 September 2022.

1.6. Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard. Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these changes to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change.

2. General conditions of use of the Railcard

2.1. If you have a physical Railcard, your Railcard is not valid, and you cannot use it, until you have signed it. If you have a disability which prevents you from signing your Railcard, please ask someone who has permission to act on your behalf to sign the Railcard for you.

2.2. The Railcard does not become your property and, if requested:

2.2.1. You must hand it to a representative of any of the Train Companies, if you have a physical Railcard.

2.2.2.You must remove it from your mobile device if requested by a representative of any of the Train Companies, if you have a digital Railcard.

2.3. The Railcard and tickets bought with it are not transferable to anyone else and you must not give, lend, or resell them. Only the named cardholder can use the Railcard.

2.4. Train Companies will not issue refunds on unused/unwanted Railcards, or extend their validity period.

2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets.

2.6. Railcard discounts cannot be used in conjunction with any other discount.

2.7. You must buy the Tickets before boarding the train unless:

2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.

1. 2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel.

2.8.1. If you have a physical Railcard, it must be signed by you (or by someone who has permission to act on your behalf) and should be legible so staff can read it, as further detailed in the NRCoT.

2.8.2. If you have a digital Railcard, you must be able to show it on a mobile device throughout your journey.

2.9. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7 and/or 2.8, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare. If you are using your Railcard to get discounts for another person, they will also be charged the full price for the applicable single fare for their journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases they may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.

2.10. Fraudulent applications and fraudulent use of Railcards and Railcard discounted tickets may lead to criminal prosecution.

INFORMATION:

• See the NRCoT for more information about Penalty Fares.
• Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London Underground and DLR tickets.

3. Replacing your lost, damaged or stolen Railcard

3.1. If you have a physical Railcard and you lose it, damage it or it is stolen, you can apply for a replacement. If you purchased your Railcard online, you must request a replacement online. If you purchased your Railcard by post or telephone, you must request the replacement from the Disabled Persons Railcard office (click here for contact details).

3.1.1. You will only be issued with one replacement of a physical Railcard in any 12 month period, and you will need to pay an administration fee, unless your physical Railcard was stolen and you have a crime reference number or documentation issued by the Police. For Disabled Persons Railcard, the administration fee is £5 for a one year Railcard and £10 for a three year Railcard.

3.2. If you have a digital Railcard and you lose or damage the mobile device that it is stored on, you can upload it to a new mobile device with no administration fee by accessing your online account.

4. Conditions of use of the Disabled Persons Railcard

4.1. Only you and, where appropriate, the adult accompanying you, can use discounted tickets. The accompanying adult must travel with you throughout the journey.

4.2. When you renew your Railcard we may ask you for current evidence of your entitlement to it – if we do, your renewal might take longer to process.

INFORMATION:

Discounted price tickets purchased by a Disabled Persons Railcard holder should be issued for travel for the same origin and destination and should normally be of the same ticket type (example both Off-Peak Returns).

Digital Railcard terms & Conditions​

1. General

The 'Railcard' app is the digital Railcard storage app of ATOC Ltd, a company registered in England (No.03069033), whose registered office is at:
200 Aldersgate Street
London
EC1A 4HD

Operating under the name Rail Delivery Group (“RDG”)

'Railcard' is offered as a free service to you, the user, by RDG for the purpose of storing and displaying your Railcard, via supported mobile phones and hardware. By installing the 'Railcard' App, you agree to be bound by these terms of use. Please review them carefully before installation and/or acceptance. If you do not agree with these terms and conditions, then you should uninstall the 'Railcard' app and cease using it.

2. Definitions

The ‘Railcard' app shall mean the software provided by RDG to display a travel discount card, to be used on Apple iOS, Android, and any upgrades from time to time and any other software or documentation which enables the use of the 'Railcard' app.

3. Conditions of use

3.1. You will not, nor allow third parties on your behalf to (i) make and distribute copies of the 'Railcard' app (ii) attempt to copy, reproduce, alter, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, transfer, exchange or translate the 'Railcard' app; or (iii) create derivative works of the 'Railcard' app of any kind whatsoever.

3.2. The 'Railcard' app is currently made available to you free of charge for your personal, non-commercial use. RDG reserves the right to amend or withdraw the 'Railcard' app, or charge for the application or service provided to you in accordance with these terms and conditions, at any time and for any reason.

3.3. You acknowledge that the terms of agreement with your respective mobile network provider ('Mobile Provider') will continue to apply when using the 'Railcard' app. As a result, you may be charged by the Mobile Provider for access to network connection services for the duration of the connection while accessing the 'Railcard' app or any such third-party charges as may arise. You accept responsibility for any such charges that arise.

3.4. If you are not the bill payer for the mobile telephone or handheld device being used to access the 'Railcard' app, you will be assumed to have received permission from the bill payer for using the 'Railcard' app.

4. Availabilty

4.1. The 'Railcard' app is available to handheld mobile devices running Apple iOS and Android OS. RDG will use reasonable efforts to make the 'Railcard' app available at all times. However, you acknowledge the 'Railcard' app is provided over the internet and mobile networks and so the quality and availability of the 'Railcard' app may be affected by factors outside RDG’s reasonable control.

4.2. RDG does not accept any responsibility whatsoever for unavailability of the 'Railcard' App, or any difficulty or inability to download or access content or any other communication system failure which may result in the 'Railcard' app being unavailable.

4.3. RDG will not be responsible for any support or maintenance for the 'Railcard' app.

5. System requirements

5.1. In order to use the 'Railcard' app, you are required to have a compatible mobile telephone or handheld device, internet access, and the necessary minimum specifications ('Software Requirements').

5.2. The Software Requirements are as follows: Apple iOS 10 and above and Android 4.1 and above.

5.3. The version of the 'Railcard' app software may be upgraded from time to time to add support for new functions and services.

6. Personal information and privacy

6.1. Introduction

In order for us to provide some of the services in the 'Railcard' app we will need to collect information from you. By using these services or providing us with information you consent to the collection, use and transfer of your information under the terms of this policy.

6.2. Personal Information Collected

6.2.1. Active Collection of Information

Some areas of the 'Railcard' app require us to collect and use your information for example location information in order for you to benefit from specific features.

We only collect and use such information unless you opt not to receive such additional features.

Your location data may also be used by our contracted partners to provide you with personalised offers and promotions based on non-identifying data and geo-location data. For the purpose of this service, we only share technical data with our partners (such as your mobile advertising IDs) to ensure that we do not identify you as a person.

We may also use your location information for the purpose of improving the journey experience we provide to you.

If you wish to opt-out of these particular services, you can use the “opt-out of interest-based advertising (https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/3405269)” option on Android or the “Limit Ad-Tracking(support.apple.com/kb/HT4228)” option on iOS.

6.2.2. Passive Collection of Information

We may collect and process anonymous information about your use of the 'Railcard' app, such as some of the pages you visit and some of the searches you perform. Such information is used by us to help us improve the contents of the site and to compile, for internal market research purposes, aggregate statistics about individuals using it. This kind of anonymous information can be obtained by our use of "cookies" as well as other means. Please see our "Use of Cookies" section below for more information on our use of cookies.

We may also share anonymous information about your use of the 'Railcard' app with third parties for analytical purposes.

6.3. How we use your Personal Information

When you supply personal information to RDG we will use it for the following purposes:
We and/or the train companies whose information is provided in the 'Railcard' app may also use your information: (a) for internal market research and analysis purposes; and (b) to carry out survey related activities with you.

We will not share or distribute any of the information you provide to us to unaffiliated third parties, unless required to do so by law.
We will only collect and use your information for the services to be provided and the duration required for the provision of the services. We may need to retain the information for a reasonable period of time after the end of the services.

6.4. Sharing of Information

The information you provide to us may need to be accessed by our staff, service providers and train operating companies.
Where you have consented to receive such services we will share your information with contracted third parties for the purpose of:

(a) providing the services and customer service assistance;
(b) marketing services; and
(c) advertising

These service providers will only have access to the information needed to perform the relevant service and may not use your information for any other purpose. They will also be required to use your information strictly in accordance with data protection laws, including maintaining adequate security measures to protect such information.

6.5. Links to third party Internet sites

The 'Railcard' app may contain links to other sites and sources of information. By clicking on these, you will leave the 'Railcard' app and this Privacy Policy will not apply to your use of any other sites.

6.6. Data Security

We employ administrative, electronic and physical security measures to ensure that the information that we collect about you is protected from access by unauthorised personsand protected against unlawful processing, accidental loss, destruction and damage. By using our website and/or services you acknowledge and agree that, except to the extent required by the Data Protection laws, we shall not be responsible for any unauthorised use, distribution, damage or destruction of personal data. We will only retain your information for a reasonable period or as long as is required by law.

We may link you to third party websites which have their own privacy policies. We do not accept any responsibility or liability for the privacy policies, content or security of these websites.

6.7. Changes to this Privacy Policy

There may be changes in how we use your data. All such changes will be notified to you by updating this Privacy Policy.

7. Intellectual proporty rights and licence

7.1. All trade marks, copyright, database rights and other intellectual property rights of any nature in the 'Railcard' app together with the underlying software code are owned either directly by RDG or by RDG’s licensors.

7.2. RDG hereby grants you a non-exclusive, royalty-free revocable licence to use the 'Railcard' app for your personal use in connection with the use of the NRE Website and in accordance with these terms and conditions.

8. Termination

8.1. RDG may terminate use of the 'Railcard' app at any time by giving notice of termination to you.

8.2. Upon any termination,

(a) the rights and licenses granted to you herein shall terminate; and
(b) you must cease all use of the Software;

9. Limitation of liability

9.1. In no event will RDG be liable for any direct, indirect, special, punitive, exemplary or consequential losses or damages of whatsoever kind arising out of your use or access to the 'Railcard' app, including loss of profit or the like whether or not in the contemplation of the parties, whether based on breach of contract, tort (including negligence), product liability or otherwise.

9.2. RDG is not liable to you for any damage or alteration to your equipment including but not limited to computer equipment, handheld device or mobile telephones as a result of the installation or use of the 'Railcard' app.

9.3. Nothing in these terms and conditions shall exclude or limit RDG’s liability for death or personal injury caused by negligence or for fraud or fraudulent misrepresentation or any other liability which cannot be excluded or limited under applicable law.

9.4. RDG accepts no liability for the content of any third party content advertised on the 'Railcard' app or any transactions made by you in respect of such content. If you object to any such content you should uninstall the 'Railcard' app.

10. Disclaimer of warranties

To the maximum extent permitted by law RDG hereby disclaims all implied warranties with regard to the 'Railcard' app. The 'Railcard' app and software are provided "as is" and "as available" without warranty of any kind.



Last updated 17 September 2021

 

[Deerfold]

It’s tiresome.

It is when new people come into a thread with points that have been answered several times before.

 

[dk1]

It is when new people come into a thread with points that have been answered several times before.

Seen it so many times & agree with you. This was a thread I avoided as long as possible but the others dried up.

 

[yorkie]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

Did you read the thread? The debate isn't about buying for immediate travel; it's about buying ahead of travel, which may even be for another person / a group.

I guess you don't get the problem because you haven't read previous posts?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==

Can you actually buy change of route excesses online?

No; you can however but them on board without penalty.

Obtaining such excess fares at ticket offices is very hit and miss.

I've just checked the T & C's for my Disabled Persons Railcard and that quite clearly states that you may be asked to show it when purchasing tickets. See Sect 2.5 below.

May be asked. It makes no sense to ask to see a Railcard for a ticket purchased in advance. If a passenger is refused such a sale they can simply buy online, and indeed I would encourage people to do exactly that.

 

[Runningaround]

I've just checked the T & C's for my Disabled Persons Railcard and that quite clearly states that you may be asked to show it when purchasing tickets. See Sect 2.5 below.

How do you show it when buying it online or at a TVM? the difference is MAY and not MUST. I can buy my dad a Senior Railcard ticket or collect one he's bought he MUST have it when travelling with it.

 

[dk1]

Did you read the thread? The debate isn't about buying for immediate travel; it's about buying ahead of travel, which may even be for another person / a group.

I guess you don't get the problem because you haven't read previous posts?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==


No; you can however but them on board without penalty.

Obtaining such excess fares at ticket offices is very hit and miss.

You’ve got it in one. As I posted above, no, I didn’t.

 

[TPO]

Simple idea, and playing devil's advocate slightly........ .

Its obviously so difficult to always get the optimum outcome with the current Byzantine fares structure, so let's just get rid of all railcards, Advance tickets and weird stuff, and have Single or Return..... maybe peak and off-peak but increasingly less call for the peak/off-peak differential. Cut all fares a bit rather than do railcard discounts for some lucky people who qualify (and anyway how come some railcards don't fall foul of the Equality Act as they discriminate by age.....? ).No split tickets, sort out the anomalies and have a sensible basic fare structure, perhaps based on miles travelled. Lots of the population don't qualify for a railcard after all.

Child under 16 discount, (and if you are 14 but look 18 you'll be paying adult fare unless you can prove your age, you can choose between looking your age or getting dressed up so you get served underage in the pub....... choices have consequences, good life lesson).

The railway may not go out of its way to make it easy, but I really don't think there's any conscious will to make it difficult either, incompetence not malice. And ticket clerks must follow their employers rules if they want to remain in the job, the same way that employees in other organisations do.....

As for online vs shops you might want to take a look at eg the Lush site (I look a lot as I love their products), a few online only products and the shop vs online experiences are different but complementary. These days for clothing shopping, many big chains with stores and online hold only limited stock of sizes, if you want a size not in stock you are encouraged to order on line (M&S I am looking at you). Works the others way too, some grocery retailers who fulfil items from a local store may not have available some items listed online as they are not stocked in that store and you only find out at checkout. Or there's local items in store but not online order.

So I admit that don't really understand why there's been 15 pages of mainly grumble about differences between online and brick-and-mortar retail/ service offerings as really it's quite a regular fact of life these days. And yes it applies to all sorts of stuff, just look at banking, buying holidays, insurance, airline tickets etc. It seems to be a natural consequence of a shift taking place in society about how we buy stuff and interact.

I'll get me coat.....

TPO

 

[Llanigraham]

May be asked. It makes no sense to ask to see a Railcard for a ticket purchased in advance. If a passenger is refused such a sale they can simply buy online, and indeed I would encourage people to do exactly that.

And I DON'T like buying on-line, but prefer to buy from a human being at my local ticket office, and will continue to do so as long as possible, and will encourage others to do the same.
And yes they do ask, politely, to see my Card.

 

[JamesT]

Simple idea, and playing devil's advocate slightly........ .

Its obviously so difficult to always get the optimum outcome with the current Byzantine fares structure, so let's just get rid of all railcards, Advance tickets and weird stuff, and have Single or Return..... maybe peak and off-peak but increasingly less call for the peak/off-peak differential. Cut all fares a bit rather than do railcard discounts for some lucky people who qualify (and anyway how come some railcards don't fall foul of the Equality Act as they discriminate by age.....? ).No split tickets, sort out the anomalies and have a sensible basic fare structure, perhaps based on miles travelled. Lots of the population don't qualify for a railcard after all.

There are specific exceptions to the Equality Act regarding age, providing concessions such as discounted rail travel is one of them - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance#age-discrimination

 

[yorkie]

Simple idea, and playing devil's advocate slightly........ .

Its obviously so difficult to always get the optimum outcome with the current Byzantine fares structure, so let's just get rid of all railcards, Advance tickets and weird stuff, and have Single or Return..... maybe peak and off-peak but increasingly less call for the peak/off-peak differential. Cut all fares a bit rather than do railcard discounts for some lucky people who qualify (and anyway how come some railcards don't fall foul of the Equality Act as they discriminate by age.....? ).No split tickets, sort out the anomalies and have a sensible basic fare structure, perhaps based on miles travelled. Lots of the population don't qualify for a railcard after all.

Child under 16 discount, (and if you are 14 but look 18 you'll be paying adult fare unless you can prove your age, you can choose between looking your age or getting dressed up so you get served underage in the pub....... choices have consequences, good life lesson).

If anyone has any proposals please post them in a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

The railway may not go out of its way to make it easy, but I really don't think there's any conscious will to make it difficult either, incompetence not malice. And ticket clerks must follow their employers rules if they want to remain in the job, the same way that employees in other organisations do.....

Have you read the thread? If you have you will realise it's not a matter of what you say above.

As for online vs shops you might want to take a look at eg the Lush site (I look a lot as I love their products), a few online only products and the shop vs online experiences are different but complementary.

We are not discussing online only products.

These days for clothing shopping, many big chains with stores and online hold only limited stock of sizes, if you want a size not in stock you are encouraged to order on line (M&S I am looking at you). Works the others way too, some grocery retailers who fulfil items from a local store may not have available some items listed online as they are not stocked in that store and you only find out at checkout. Or there's local items in store but not online order.

The products under debate are available through all retail channels.

You are right the rail industry would prefer people to buy online and ultimately this could save the industry, and therefore passengers and/or taxpayers, money.

So I admit that don't really understand why there's been 15 pages of mainly grumble about differences between online and brick-and-mortar retail/ service offerings as really it's quite a regular fact of life these days

Its not a matter of fact; if you look at the debate it boils down to interpretation, opinions and someone deciding when to apply a particular interpretation of a rule, or when not to!

. And yes it applies to all sorts of stuff, just look at banking, buying holidays, insurance, airline tickets etc. It seems to be a natural consequence of a shift taking place in society about how we buy stuff and interact.

I'll get me coat.....

TPO

What does? That people are better off going online? If so, we are in agreement!

 

[Falcon1200]

I have now changed my opinion ! Given that Railcard-discounted tickets can be bought online or from a machine without having the Railcard present, or even possessed at all, it does not make much sense refusing to sell tickets from a booking office without seeing it; Perhaps that is just a hangover from the days when most, if not all, tickets were bought that way ? I would suggest that when buying such tickets a clear instruction that the Railcard must be carried and shown when travelling would suffice, this could be a highlighted message online or at a machine, and/or a printed card issued along with the ticket.

 

[joebassman]

It helps if the passenger is buying tickets for immediate travel but has forgotten their railcard or it has expired. It also helps if buying tickets in advance and the card expires before the date of travel.

TVMs and online retailers should ask for the expiry date to mitigate against these situations too. They don't have to interrogate the Railcard database if that's difficult but it would be useful to print the date on the ticket. It would also help prove intent to avoid paying the correct fare if someone didn't hold a railcard but entered a fictional date.

I travelled on a Greater Anglia service a few years and didn't realise that my disabled persons railcard had expired. The guard just told me to buy a full ticket if I was travelling on another train and confiscated the card.

I never heard any more. Maybe I was lucky, perhaps it was because it was a disabled persons one or are GA a bit more lenient?

 

[dk1]

I travelled on a Greater Anglia service a few years and didn't realise that my disabled persons railcard had expired. The guard just told me to buy a full ticket if I was travelling on another train and confiscated the card.

I never heard any more. Maybe I was lucky, perhaps it was because it was a disabled persons one or are GA a bit more lenient?

I think you where lucky. Like most operators guards some are more lenient than others. There are those that tolerate no grey areas only seeing black & white.

 

[RJ]

Has anybody here tried writing directly to those who administer the railcard schemes and their T&Cs to get them to ban ticket office staff from being able to ask to see the railcard when a purchase is made?

While that policy is in place there's not much to be gained in criticising those who are acting in accordance with the rules.

 

[Dai Corner]

Has anybody here tried writing directly to those who administer the railcard schemes and their T&Cs to get them to ban ticket office staff from being able to ask to see the railcard when a purchase is made?

While that policy is in place there's not much to be gained in criticising those who are acting in accordance with the rules.

Trouble is, they might decide to require TVMs and online sales to come into line with ticket offices instead. That's the opposite to what most are saying they want.

 

[RT4038]

Trouble is, they might decide to require TVMs and online sales to come into line with ticket offices instead. That's the opposite to what most are saying they want.

Well yes, what 'they' want and what is in the railway best financial interest may be two different things.

 

[Ken H]

Has anybody here tried writing directly to those who administer the railcard schemes and their T&Cs to get them to ban ticket office staff from being able to ask to see the railcard when a purchase is made?

While that policy is in place there's not much to be gained in criticising those who are acting in accordance with the rules.

Or even easier. Put a start date on railcards and allow them to be issued before the start date.

 

[The exile]

What would booking office staff say if I (very obviously middle aged) asked to buy a child ticket (only)? Would it make a difference if advance purchase or fir potential immediate use. It’s something I am presumably entitled to buy but clearly not entitled to travel on.

 

[Wyrleybart]

A safety culture is no bad thing, but if you're actually interested in saving lives overall then further railway safety spending should be stopped and diverted to the roads. Or used to reduce fares so more people transfer from road to rail.

In terms of safety "big steps", TPWS was the last thing that was truly worthwhile, other than the general incremental improvement you get to rolling stock just by replacing it on a normal schedule.

Or you could use the investment for more police patrols to take unsafe morons off the roads to make the roads safer. IMHO some driving is becoming considerably riskier - probably because people know they are unlikely to be challenged by an invisible police force, however just this week there was a news report of the first camera'd up truck photographing people using mobiles and not wearing seatbelts while driving. Could be a nice little earner for the likes of Stobart etc.