Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[RJ]

Re presenting a railcard when buying a ticket.

It's a term agreed to when acquiring the railcard. The time to contest that is not when buying a ticket. That’s something I’ve always accepted as a railcard user.

Working at a ticket office, I sometimes get people who have an issue with showing their railcard - often it turns out to be out of date or has someone else's name on it, or they don’t have it with them but intend to travel immediately. I also get people who have bought a discounted ticket at the TVM whilst not having a railcard to present, then coming to the window and swearing blind that somebody in a ticket office sold them the ticket and failed to advise them that they needed to have the railcard with them.

 

[yorkie]

So when buying a discounted ticket in advance (especially if buying for others) it can be better to buy online, as otherwise the sale may be refused, depending on either the policy of the particular operator or the discretion of the member of staff. In other words it's a lottery.

And that's before you even consider all the other potential reasons a sale may be refused or not fulfilled.

We need the full range of tickets to be purchasable online, and with rail travel vouchers, so that passengers can buy online with confidence and not be refused service or charged extra.

 

[43066]

Deleted.

 

[yorkie]

Some people do multiple jobs; the two jobs mentioned are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Runningaround]

Re presenting a railcard when buying a ticket.

It's a term agreed to when acquiring the railcard. The time to contest that is not when buying a ticket. That’s something I’ve always accepted as a railcard user.

Working at a ticket office, I sometimes get people who have an issue with showing their railcard - often it turns out to be out of date or has someone else's name on it, or they don’t have it with them but intend to travel immediately. I also get people who have bought a discounted ticket at the TVM whilst not having a railcard to present, then coming to the window and swearing blind that somebody in a ticket office sold them the ticket and failed to advise them that they needed to have the railcard with them.

Again this proves the point that railway staff do enjoy making life more difficult for passengers. Thankyou for your honest contribution I'm even less likely to ever use a ticket office again, I can buy all my tickets online without refusal at the whim of a human employee.
I mistakenly clicked RTV's as a refund, but knowing that office staff aren't consistent in future I'll keep the two threads on t his forum in mind when claiming Delay Repay(also easier online with online tickets) and request a refund, another nail in the coffin nailed down.

 

[RT4038]

It's unacceptable in your opinion (and maybe in others'), that doesn't mean it is unacceptable all things considered though. The alternative side to this is that we're simply doing the job we're asked to do by our employer (subject to different TOCs), not to mention helping to prevent potential ticket fraud. You can't have a 100% consistent approach especially in roles like the ticket office with the various different circumstances it brings and the many different passengers who we deal with.
The system might be broken and there should be solutions put in place to prevent this situation of passengers losing weeks/months of their railcard validity in buying advance tickets from the office, but you can't 'expect' booking office staff to resolve this by not doing things by the book when their employer hasn't permitted them to do this. Any working methods which deviate away from 'the book' (even if it is to help passengers) should only be at the employee or employer's discretion, not something a passenger should come to expect.

Like most things in life, there is no black and white answer, only fifty shades of grey! In this case there clearly is a problem of misuse of railcard discounts , and railway staff should always be trying to prevent revenue loss for the railway. Checking that the railcard is valid when a ticket is purchased is a perfectly legitimate demand, however obviously there are going to be circumstances (particularly purchasing tickets in advance) where a valid railcard is not held at the time of purchase - the ticket should be sold but suitably endorsed that the customer did out hold a valid railcard at time of purchase and was told one would be required.

I know that tickets can be purchased on line or at a TVM without the railcard being validated, and I would suggest that this is where the problem really lies, rather than with the ticket office. I do not buy this argument that because one form of sale doesn't currently do something then none should - TVM sales and Internet sales should require the railcard number inserted (and then verified to the database), and in the case of advance tickets where one isn't held, a suitable endorsement and warning printed. Unfortunately there is so much bilking being attempted that honest as the driven snow passengers are going to be inconvenienced sometimes to try and reduce it, even if not all outlets can do it at present . In the meantime, ticket office staff should be enforcing the rule, caveated that there needs to be consistent application of the exceptions.

Ticket Office staff are humans, they will vary in quality and mood (much like everywhere!) . Ticketing aficionados quite likely will know more about parts or all of the ticketing system than the average ticket clerk and can easily get frustrated when a clerk is unsure or rusty about the transaction. Add in the human traits of denial when confronted with a problem, and the reaction to people who know more about parts of the job than them, and a toxic situation can develop. The ticketing system is much more open and transparent than ever it was ( try asking the clerk in 1955 at Welford & Kilworth for the rover/runabout ticket covering Peterhead.....) and frankly the Internet is a far better place for this tiny minority of customer to acquire their tickets. As for the obscure tickets not available by this method, which seem to cause so much problem at ticket offices, should they exist anyway, being such a niche product?

If a passenger comes to the ticket window at York and asks for a single to Church Fenton and a single from Finsbury Park to King's Cross, travelling today, then yes they should be refused, even if they could go and buy it online (unless they have a pretty convincing reason why!).

 

[ComUtoR]

Again this proves the point that railway staff do enjoy making life more difficult for passengers.

Sorry but where does it say they "enjoy it" ?

 

[RJ]

So when buying a discounted ticket in advance (especially if buying for others) it can be better to buy online, as otherwise the sale may be refused, depending on either the policy of the particular operator or the discretion of the member of staff. In other words it's a lottery.

And that's before you even consider all the other potential reasons a sale may be refused or not fulfilled.

We need the full range of tickets to be purchasable online, and with rail travel vouchers, so that passengers can buy online with confidence and not be refused service or charged extra.

Discretion does mean that it can be a lottery - but some expect it as a matter of course, instead of challenging the policies with the powers that be that set them. As a customer I accept the terms of the railcard even if discretion would be a help in some cases.

I remember on one occasion I tried to buy variants of the Sheffield to Tonbridge SSR to travel out on every term time Friday for a year, starting from the following week. I didn't have my 16-25 railcard with me and when I tried to buy at Euston, the sale was refused. Fair enough, nothing I could say to that. So I went home, got my railcard and bought them somewhere else.

Nine months later I was travelling from London to Loughborough on one such ticket with my railcard and the RPI on board the train tried to withdraw the ticket and do a report on the basis that the ticket was sold prior to the issue of the 16-25 railcard I had presented! Then they tried to withdraw the railcard on the basis that it hadn't been signed. So I provided additional lighting to show that it had in fact been signed. They gave up in the end and stormed off.

Deleted.

Not everybody necessarily follows the model of having one full time job to earn a living. This wouldn't be the first time someone has found that concept incredulous

 

[43066]

Not everybody necessarily follows the model of having one full time job to earn a living. This wouldn't be the first time someone has found that concept incredulous

What you do for a living doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

I’d just ask that you don’t slag off an entire industry based on your own (limited) view of it.

 

[Runningaround]

Sorry but where does it say they "enjoy it" ?

Its the title of the thread and I agree with it.

 

[Runningaround]

Like most things in life, there is no black and white answer, only fifty shades of grey! In this case there clearly is a problem of misuse of railcard discounts , and railway staff should always be trying to prevent revenue loss for the railway. Checking that the railcard is valid when a ticket is purchased is a perfectly legitimate demand, however obviously there are going to be circumstances (particularly purchasing tickets in advance) where a valid railcard is not held at the time of purchase - the ticket should be sold but suitably endorsed that the customer did out hold a valid railcard at time of purchase and was told one would be required.

I know that tickets can be purchased on line or at a TVM without the railcard being validated, and I would suggest that this is where the problem really lies, rather than with the ticket office. I do not buy this argument that because one form of sale doesn't currently do something then none should - TVM sales and Internet sales should require the railcard number inserted (and then verified to the database), and in the case of advance tickets where one isn't held, a suitable endorsement and warning printed. Unfortunately there is so much bilking being attempted that honest as the driven snow passengers are going to be inconvenienced sometimes to try and reduce it, even if not all outlets can do it at present . In the meantime, ticket office staff should be enforcing the rule, caveated that there needs to be consistent application of the exceptions.

Ticket Office staff are humans, they will vary in quality and mood (much like everywhere!) . Ticketing aficionados quite likely will know more about parts or all of the ticketing system than the average ticket clerk and can easily get frustrated when a clerk is unsure or rusty about the transaction. Add in the human traits of denial when confronted with a problem, and the reaction to people who know more about parts of the job than them, and a toxic situation can develop. The ticketing system is much more open and transparent than ever it was ( try asking the clerk in 1955 at Welford & Kilworth for the rover/runabout ticket covering Peterhead.....) and frankly the Internet is a far better place for this tiny minority of customer to acquire their tickets. As for the obscure tickets not available by this method, which seem to cause so much problem at ticket offices, should they exist anyway, being such a niche product?

If a passenger comes to the ticket window at York and asks for a single to Church Fenton and a single from Finsbury Park to King's Cross, travelling today, then yes they should be refused, even if they could go and buy it online (unless they have a pretty convincing reason why!).

Why is there a problem in someone buying a ticket without having the railcard present? If someone wants to evade a fare they just don't buy a ticket at all.
Why should anyone waste 3 months validity of a railcard just to buy a railcard to purchase a ticket in advance of travel?
Why shouldn't a passenger buy a single from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross as well as a single to Church Fenton from a York Ticket office? They can buy it from a York TVM. Or sat in the cafe with their internet device, why are you being so obstructive?
Here again another example as to why people are avoiding the rigmarole of the ticket office lottery.
If a ticket is available to purchase it's not up to the ticket office to decide whether its too obscure to bother selling it.
If the average ticket clerk gets that frustrated at customer service because they cannot handle a passenger knowing better, then they are in the wrong job,

Is it any wonder passengers are deserting them in there droves if this is the experience they are getting.

 

[RJ]

Sorry but where does it say they "enjoy it" ?

I don't think the assertion that the railways enjoy making things difficult is fair.

The example in the first post, the powers that be negotiated a National Rail only Priv discount on Oyster which can only be a good thing for TOCNE staff. The initial setup of (most) London Overground and FasTis+ equipped NR stations being the places to load had to be changed for various reasons and now it's only select Elizabeth Line run stations that are nominated to do it, subject to availability of staff able to do it.

It's not a case of the railways enjoying making things difficult - I'm sure the powers that be are acutely aware of issues with a shortage of availability of staff with the equipment and knowledge to load the discount - it's probably as frustrating to them as it is to those trying to load the discount. All that can really be done is feed back when the process has failed so it can be addressed with those who manage the stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==

What you do for a living doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

I’d just ask that you don’t slag off an entire industry based on your own (limited) view of it.

My comments in this thread do nothing of the sort.

 

[Fokx]

Why is there a problem in someone buying a ticket without having the railcard present? If someone wants to evade a fare they just don't buy a ticket at all.

You might want to check out the disputes and prosecutions thread, that isn’t the case.

 

[Deerfold]

It's unacceptable in your opinion (and maybe in others'), that doesn't mean it is unacceptable all things considered though. The alternative side to this is that we're simply doing the job we're asked to do by our employer (subject to different TOCs), not to mention helping to prevent potential ticket fraud. You can't have a 100% consistent approach especially in roles like the ticket office with the various different circumstances it brings and the many different passengers who we deal with.
The system might be broken and there should be solutions put in place to prevent this situation of passengers losing weeks/months of their railcard validity in buying advance tickets from the office, but you can't 'expect' booking office staff to resolve this by not doing things by the book when their employer hasn't permitted them to do this. Any working methods which deviate away from 'the book' (even if it is to help passengers) should only be at the employee or employer's discretion, not something a passenger should come to expect.

The complaint is about the system. You're admitting the system might be broken. I'd suggest if different parts of the system have different rules for ticket offices so I can buy something from one TOC but not another, it definitely is.

You're now agreeing that passengers should be able to buy tickets before they buy their railcards despite arguing previously that they shouldn't be able to.

 

[Runningaround]

You might want to check out the disputes and prosecutions thread, that isn’t the case.

There isn't any requirement to hold a valid railcard at any point of purchase, you only require the Railcard when you travel.
The only obstruction to obtaining the tickets are booking office clerks, why are they looking for excuse to use them even less?

 

[RJ]

Why is there a problem in someone buying a ticket without having the railcard present? If someone wants to evade a fare they just don't buy a ticket at all.
Why should anyone waste 3 months validity of a railcard just to buy a railcard to purchase a ticket in advance of travel?
Why shouldn't a passenger buy a single from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross as well as a single to Church Fenton from a York Ticket office? They can buy it from a York TVM. Or sat in the cafe with their internet device, why are you being so obstructive?
Here again another example as to why people are avoiding the rigmarole of the ticket office lottery.
If a ticket is available to purchase it's not up to the ticket office to decide whether its too obscure to bother selling it.
If the average ticket clerk gets that frustrated at customer service because they cannot handle a passenger knowing better, then they are in the wrong job,

Is it any wonder passengers are deserting them in there droves if this is the experience they are getting.

I doubt that any of the reasons you describe are why the number of transactions are declining in significant numbers at tickets offices.

In London, transactions at the terminal I worked at declined significantly when Oyster PAYG became a thing. They further declined where I am now when payment by contactless cards and weekly capping came in. And more so when season tickets became available on ITSO cards. Paper Travelcard seasons are being wound down. In addition to purchasing tickets online, we now have e-tickets and m-tickets. Then we had Covid and a significant shift away from the type of commuting which warrants the purchase of traditional season tickets.

Technology and changing consumer behaviour is what is driving significant enough declines to hear these murmurings of nationwide closures.

 

[RT4038]

Why is there a problem in someone buying a ticket without having the railcard present? If someone wants to evade a fare they just don't buy a ticket at all.

Because then they get upset when they find their railcard validity expired. Why do people tickets from machines with railcard discount when they haven't got a railcard? - to get past the barriers presumably.

Why should anyone waste 3 months validity of a railcard just to buy a railcard to purchase a ticket in advance of travel?

Never said they should, if you read my post.

Why shouldn't a passenger buy a single from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross as well as a single to Church Fenton from a York Ticket office? They can buy it from a York TVM. Or sat in the cafe with their internet device, why are you being so obstructive?

Because the only reason they would be trying to do it is to defraud the railway, and every opportunity should be used to reduce that. All the fraud catching should not be left to confrontation with conductors and RPIs.

If a ticket is available to purchase it's not up to the ticket office to decide whether its too obscure to bother selling it.

Never said it was, but as with every job, obscure tasks undertaken infrequently are forgotten and are clearly a problem.

If the average ticket clerk gets that frustrated at customer service because they cannot handle a passenger knowing better, then they are in the wrong job,

Human nature , and will of course depend on the customer approach too. I was merely making an observation. Not confined to railway ticket clerks by any means.

Is it any wonder passengers are deserting them in there droves if this is the experience they are getting.

No queuing up at a the ticket window behind someone buying something obscure I expect.....

 

[dk1]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

 

[Runningaround]

I doubt that any of the reasons you describe are why the number of transactions are declining in significant numbers at tickets offices.

In London, transactions at the terminal I worked at declined significantly when Oyster PAYG became a thing. They further declined where I am now when payment by contactless cards and weekly capping came in. And more so when season tickets became available on ITSO cards. Paper Travelcard seasons are being wound down. In addition to purchasing tickets online, we now have e-tickets and m-tickets. Then we had Covid and a significant shift away from the type of commuting which warrants the purchase of traditional season tickets.

Technology and changing consumer behaviour is what is driving significant enough declines to hear these murmurings of nationwide closures.

It doesn't help when the booking office will not sell you a railcard discount ticket that you can buy online.
Looking at the posts on here from booking office staff they are by want or rules pushing custom online, it's to there detriment not mine.
I can buy ANY ticket online, I cant buy the same at a ticket office, remember part of the ticket fares are going towards the ticket offices running costs yet they are unable/unwilling to do the work I can do online.
The reason I started buying online over ticket offices is I don't have a ticket office within 20 miles, I don't even have access to a TVM, on short journeys I might buy off the guard but as they rarely get round before I disembark and there aren't any facilities there either it's a free trip. But then it's up to the toc to resolve not me.

I have to use a ticket office once/twice a year to buy a Cambrian Railcard or to collect cross London CCT format ticket there isn't any choice. If I could do both online I would.
But finding the ticket office clerk asleep with blinds open, another time reading the paper, then popping out to chat to the driver while a queue formed it's far better to go online, like 90% of those boarding at the staffed station do now. I've seen passengers get challenged with no tickets and boarding a staffed station, once informed on which the ticket clerk was on duty they sell to you on board.

 

[Runningaround]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

Nobody has, but I DO NOT NEED TO PROVIDE A RAILCARD AT POINT OF PURCHASE, only at point of travel the only point of obstruction is the booking office clerk, so I avoid them and buy online.

 

[43066]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

I sort of get the point they’ve raised about people who are asking for tickets to use in a week/a month, with a railcard they don’t currently have, but will purchase to start from the day they use the tickets to maximise validity.

That’s a legitimate reason not to have the card at the time they’re buying the tickets and, if there’s no rule against the ticket office selling the tickets in that circumstance, it seems a bit odd to refuse. Especially when the person can simply buy the same tickets online with no evidence of a railcard.

Then another ticket clerk admitted upthread they would offer to sell split tickets when they aren’t really supposed to - so at best it seems like the approach towards passenger requests is inconsistent.

A bit like trying to find a ticket office who can put national rail only priv discounts onto oysters (I’ve given up!).

 

[Fokx]

There isn't any requirement to hold a valid railcard at any point of purchase, you only require the Railcard when you travel.
The only obstruction to obtaining the tickets are booking office clerks, why are they looking for excuse to use them even less?

I wasn’t denying that, I was denying that the occasional passenger would buy something invalid rather than pay the full fare because they believe that’s better than not paying it entirely. (Amongst over reasons)

 

[norbitonflyer]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide.

The problem has come about because of the increase in the availability, and discounts available, of tickets not bought for immediate travel - i.e advance tickets. Why should someone who will be eligible for a discount on the date of travel, maybe three months away, be refused a ticket because he is not yet eligible? (Conversely, would you accept a 16 year old travelling at child rate because he bought the ticket when he was still 15?)

And why should it be necessary for everyone in the family to troop into the ticket office to get a family railcard discount, or for me to drag my nonaganarian grandmother down to the station just to buy an advance ticket for a journey some time in the future?

 

[Darandio]

Nobody has, but I DO NOT NEED TO PROVIDE A RAILCARD AT POINT OF PURCHASE, only at point of travel the only point of obstruction is the booking office clerk, so I avoid them and buy online.

You do if requested to do so. You agreed to that when ordering your railcard.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I never understand why anyone has a problem with being asked for their railcard unless they have something to hide. If I buy a ‘priv’ ticket my staff card has to be produced & I show it at the same time as presenting my ticket whenever requested throughout the journey. I don’t get the problem.

As I have repeatedly said on this thread, I buy tickets for our summer holidays 3 months in advance. It means I'm not paying at the same time as the holiday, cheap advance tickets can be bought, and we can get table seat reservations. One year I'll book the holiday at the end of the school holidays, the next year at the start. Therefore, one F&F railcard will do both holidays. I have nothing to hide, I'm not defrauding the railway. Yet (some) ticket clerks will go out of their way to stop me buying tickets. I might not want to explain to them I can't afford to buy the tickets and the railcard at the same time, and what business are my finances to them? So it is perfectly possible to be honest, trustworthy and not want a ticket clerk to know my business.

 

[Runningaround]

Because then they get upset when they find their railcard validity expired. Why do people tickets from machines with railcard discount when they haven't got a railcard? - to get past the barriers presumably.

Never said they should, if you read my post.


Because the only reason they would be trying to do it is to defraud the railway, and every opportunity should be used to reduce that. All the fraud catching should not be left to confrontation with conductors and RPIs.


Never said it was, but as with every job, obscure tasks undertaken infrequently are forgotten and are clearly a problem.


Human nature , and will of course depend on the customer approach too. I was merely making an observation. Not confined to railway ticket clerks by any means.



No queuing up at a the ticket window behind someone buying something obscure I expect.....

They buy them for travel for future travel, they collect them while in the area!, they fetch someone else's as a favour At no point is their or railcard needed.
I'm defrauding the railway if I buy a ticket online I didn't show it the railcard did I? why do the ticket office clerk insist i'm fraudulently travelling if I do even though I'm not travelling that day on that ticket.

The TVM and online website doesn't judge, it sells the ticket without prejudice even if I'm wound up from clicking the wrong station it still proceeds without any huffing or puffing.

No queuing online is needed either, it sells me the ticket I want it's of no business of it or a booking office clerk to decide if I can buy it. Its of concern to who uses it once travelling.

Again why should I and every person I'm travelling with have to be present at the ticket office on the 14th of August when I buy a load of tickets for September 28th with their railcards and individually holding it for a booking office to see?
Neither of us need to be with a valid railcard on the 14th August, we shouldn't have too waste a months validity either just to please of booking clerk. As long as we all have them with us, in date on the 28th September there's no issue.
Why are booking office clerk's being obtuse? I can do all above online.
And of course I can buy it all online anyway.
The booking clerks aren't catching any fare evaders, they just walk past, they aren't going to be queueing at a counter while your upsetting MR Smith and demanding his railcard he doesn't need yet.

 

[Runningaround]

You do if requested to do so. You agreed to that when ordering your railcard.

No you don't, I don't need it to buy online or from a TVM, why should a booking office be any different? I need it when travelling not at the point of purchase.
Would a booking office suspect me of fraud if I pick up a senior railcard discounted ticket for travel on the 28th August tomorrow for my dad?
Why is it ok online and at the TVM on the same station?

 

[Runningaround]

I wasn’t denying that, I was denying that the occasional passenger would buy something invalid rather than pay the full fare because they believe that’s better than not paying it entirely. (Amongst over reasons)

You just don't buy at all if you want free travel and face the consequences if they happen. Or just short fare if there's a barrier or guard expected, you won't get into bother with a ticket unless your beyond the station, why bother paying for a railcard discounted ticket if your intention is to avoid the correct fare you would get caught even short faring that way?
You'd be at risk 100% of the time of being caught without a railcard and discounted ticket and it'd be seen as nothing more than a deliberate attempt to avoid the correct fare.
You'd be at risk for the time after your short fared station has passed and can pass it off as missing the stop or falling asleep, at least you have a valid ticket to that stop.

 

[Ediswan]

You do if requested to do so. You agreed to that when ordering your railcard.

I just checked the senior railcard conditions:
"2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets."
Compare that with:
"2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel."

Only one of those terms says "must".

 

[LowLevel]

Nobody has, but I DO NOT NEED TO PROVIDE A RAILCARD AT POINT OF PURCHASE, only at point of travel the only point of obstruction is the booking office clerk, so I avoid them and buy online.

Condition 2.5 of the railcard T&Cs (using 16-25 as an example, details may vary) says otherwise. It says you may be asked to provide your Railcard at point or purchase. Not must, but may, and if you are, then you need to show it *shrug*