Chiltern Chairman Challenge - Evergreen 4!

[tbtc]

Pity other operators don't have the inventiveness and energy of Chiltern when it comes to development...

Its partly because of the attitude at Chiltern, but it also helps to have (1) a very long franchise and (2) a fairly blank sheet of paper to design things on (e.g. Cross Country wouldn't be able to do anything like this)

Virgin had similar plans for if they won the ECML franchise, but that'd mean tiptoeing around FCC/ Hull Trains/ Grand Central/ Cross Country/ Transpennine/ Northern etc. Why invest when you won\t see the full benefit?

 

[YesToHS2]

Do we really need three fast mainlines from London to Birmingham (if/when all Chiltern's plans and HS2 happen)?

How's about sticking to running a good service in the Chilterns rather than planning world domination?

Good point. Critics of HS2 say how an improved Chilterns line will benefit everyone. If the Chilterns went up to 125mph at a cost of billions according to the Atkins report, In fact what would happen is train companies would offer more none stop service from Birmingham to London bypassing the tows that they were supposed to be serving. HS2 would actually mean better local services for those living in between Birmingham and London on both the Chilterns and WCML routes.

Sorry to hijack the thread, I just thought it was a good point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the subject of the Chilterns upgrade. It's not quite as simple as the Chilterns Railways would like you to think, it's all well and good them having ambition but they are not always willing to play ball when it come to Network Rail's safety specification. According to guy I know from Atkins there are constant wranglings over the safety details with Chilterns apparently submitting plans which aren't always up to scratch. This is what can happen when a private company says it's going to make improvements but doesn't want to pay the full actual cost.

 

[tbtc]

Good point. Critics of HS2 say how an improved Chilterns line will benefit everyone. If the Chilterns went up to 125mph at a cost of billions according to the Atkins report, In fact what would happen is train companies would offer more none stop service from Birmingham to London bypassing the tows that they were supposed to be serving

This is one of my problems with Chiltern; they seem to be more interested in the London - Birmingham market than serving the towns inbetween (which is, after all, the point of Chiltern)

 

[route:oxford]

On the subject of the Chilterns upgrade. It's not quite as simple as the Chilterns Railways would like you to think, it's all well and good them having ambition but they are not always willing to play ball when it come to Network Rail's safety specification. According to guy I know from Atkins there are constant wranglings over the safety details with Chilterns apparently submitting plans which aren't always up to scratch. This is what can happen when a private company says it's going to make improvements but doesn't want to pay the full actual cost.

Consultants were able to prove in a safety paper that the provision of fast, through services from Oxford to Birmingham adjacent to an equestrian centre would result in several rider fatalaties a year due to scared horses.

Was this one of the wranglings over safety details?

 

[barrykas]

If what you have been led to believe is correct (maybe the OPO equipment at Moor Park isn't suitable for Chiltern's trains, or there's some other reason they can't stop next to it) then it's because the platforms are all on the right hand side of the train, whereas the Train Operators at this location sit on the left.

The number of times I've been along there (and checked it on Google Maps before my post) and I completely forgot that. D'oh!

 

[Fred26]

Its partly because of the attitude at Chiltern, but it also helps to have (1) a very long franchise and (2) a fairly blank sheet of paper to design things on (e.g. Cross Country wouldn't be able to do anything like this)

Virgin had similar plans for if they won the ECML franchise, but that'd mean tiptoeing around FCC/ Hull Trains/ Grand Central/ Cross Country/ Transpennine/ Northern etc. Why invest when you won\t see the full benefit?

What plans did Virgin have for the ECML?

 

[tbtc]

What plans did Virgin have for the ECML?

The three main parts were:

1. A new dedicated high speed line from north London to around Doncaster, bypassing Welwyn, the Newark flat crossing etc. This would have allowed "classic" ECML services to run to new destinations, e.g. London - Retford - Sheffield, London - Grantham - Nottingham

2. Diverting via the Leamside line between Darlington and Newcastle (avoiding the Durham curves), so a lot faster, possibly with a new station at Washington

3. A new stretch of line avoiding Morpeth and the slow curve there (see details of the sleeper derailment in the '80s for more details)

All very interesting stuff, and it'd have been running now if they'd been given the go-ahead. However, this would have involved several TOCs and been a lot more complicated to agree on, so wouldn't have been as simple as Chiltern's plan.

 

[YesToHS2]

Consultants were able to prove in a safety paper that the provision of fast, through services from Oxford to Birmingham adjacent to an equestrian centre would result in several rider fatalaties a year due to scared horses.

Was this one of the wranglings over safety details?

It was more about the technical plans they were submitting that didn't conform to Network rail safety standards. He didn't go into much detail it was just brought up in a general conversation we we're having. Talking too much about trains is a bit of a busman's holiday for him.

 

[talltim]

Following last month's announcement on Evergreen 3, Chiltern Chairman
Adrian Shooter is asking Modern Railways readers what Evergreen 4
should provide. Roger Ford likes the idea of a 4 track 125mph
electrified railway but reckons that this will have to wait for
Evergreen 5 (and a potential franchise extension to 2026, according to
the article!) !

Comments to Roger Ford at: Evergreen4@alycidon.com

Re-open the Chesterfield loop

 

[cle]

This is one of my problems with Chiltern; they seem to be more interested in the London - Birmingham market than serving the towns inbetween (which is, after all, the point of Chiltern)

That's not fair - they also like the Bicester Village traffic!
They'll also benefit from the new planned similar outlet place by Wembley Stadium, due to open in 2013.

I suspect they'll offer lots of discounted tickets to there, and Oxford once running, to supplement a rather low weekend demand to their Chilterns commuter destinations which are so popular during the week.

And obviously Birmingham is a big market, especially students and cheap travel. It's a shame they don't connect well to University station.

But new markets, I'm not sure. Nobody seems to think Buckingham is worthwhile, for example. And would many people travel from Aylesbury to MK? I don't know the area too well. I think longer services, like MK/Bedford to Bristol via Oxford and Swindon, might open up more for them?

 

[Fred26]

The three main parts were:

1. A new dedicated high speed line from north London to around Doncaster, bypassing Welwyn, the Newark flat crossing etc. This would have allowed "classic" ECML services to run to new destinations, e.g. London - Retford - Sheffield, London - Grantham - Nottingham

2. Diverting via the Leamside line between Darlington and Newcastle (avoiding the Durham curves), so a lot faster, possibly with a new station at Washington

3. A new stretch of line avoiding Morpeth and the slow curve there (see details of the sleeper derailment in the '80s for more details)

All very interesting stuff, and it'd have been running now if they'd been given the go-ahead. However, this would have involved several TOCs and been a lot more complicated to agree on, so wouldn't have been as simple as Chiltern's plan.

Sounds great. Maybe one day...

 

[Mojo]

Sorry to dig this one up again; Chiltern services were making additional stops at Moor Park last night as the Met. line was disrupted.

Did anyone see if there were LUL staff on the platforms there to confirm the point raised by barrykas, above?

 

[Lad Brookes]

Sorry to dig this one up again; Chiltern services were making additional stops at Moor Park last night as the Met. line was disrupted.

Did anyone see if there were LUL staff on the platforms there to confirm the point raised by barrykas, above?

My partner travelled that way, and looked for some but couldn't see any (that doesn't mean there weren't any though, the train was very busy).

 

[Chafford1]

Bumping this as curious if there had been any news or updates, especially now that work on Evergreen 3 is very much underway - the Birmingham/mainline bits anyway!

Track straightened at Gerrards Cross and Northolt Park; new platform and up line straightened at Bicester North, new up through line instated but not in use yet at Princes Risborough, work started on revised Northolt Junction.

 

[KiddyKid]

Linespeed due to rise at several locations on March 14th, hang onto your hats on the down line approaching Aynho Junction, 100 dropping to 90 at Souldern Viaducts. 85 over the flyover rising to 90 through the junction.

 

[The Planner]

Expect to be sat for a while at Banbury and Bicester until May as the time made up will be sat at stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Linespeed due to rise at several locations on March 14th, hang onto your hats on the down line approaching Aynho Junction, 100 dropping to 90 at Souldern Viaducts. 85 over the flyover rising to 90 through the junction.

Of course if you were to go by the rubbish printed in Rail magazine a while back, the flyover won't be used:

'Here the 50mph flyover will be replaced with a flat junction in the down direction...' (Rail Issue 643 page 50)

What a bunch of idiots...

 

[Chafford1]

Linespeed due to rise at several locations on March 14th, hang onto your hats on the down line approaching Aynho Junction, 100 dropping to 90 at Souldern Viaducts. 85 over the flyover rising to 90 through the junction.

But will the work at Aynho be completed by then?

 

[The Planner]

Aynho Goods loop is closed at the mo to allow the points to be built and installed, not sure if anything has got there to be built yet mind.

 

[KiddyKid]

Quite a bit of materials stacked/stored on Aynho up loop, even so five weeks isnt a great deal of time, we'll see!!

 

[Mojo]

Hang on, are trains now going to cross Aynho on the flat?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Hang on, are trains now going to cross Aynho on the flat?!

No, but there will be an additional crossover somewhere to allow for 'seven day railway' single track operations. I was explaining that Rail had described the work wrongly.

The text from Chiltern's track access application that described the work is:

"Install new turnouts at Aynho Junction on up (90 mph) and down (85 mph);

"Raise line speed from 90-65-90 to 90-100 mph on the up and 100-50-40-90 to 100-90-85-90 on the down;

"Upgrade [the existing] 15 mph trailing crossover on the Didcot- Chester Line (DCL) to 50mph;

"Install new '7-day railway' 50 mph facing crossover on DCL north of existing crossover."

 

[Mojo]

Thanks for that reply. I wasn't quite sure if you were saying Rail magazine were a load of idiots for misreporting, or that those doing the rebuilding were idiots for scrapping one of the few flying junctions we have in this country!

 

[TDK]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the subject of the Chilterns upgrade. It's not quite as simple as the Chilterns Railways would like you to think, it's all well and good them having ambition but they are not always willing to play ball when it come to Network Rail's safety specification. According to guy I know from Atkins there are constant wranglings over the safety details with Chilterns apparently submitting plans which aren't always up to scratch. This is what can happen when a private company says it's going to make improvements but doesn't want to pay the full actual cost.

Your source on this?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Expect to be sat for a while at Banbury and Bicester until May as the time made up will be sat at stations.

That all depends on the driver as we are very good at our eco driving - if done correctly the drivers should arrive no more that 2 minutes early by coasting and saving fuel and the environment until the timings are changed - whether this happens or not is another story!

 

[brel york]

Sorry, I don't think you'll ever be able to sell doubledeck trains to me!

double deckers been tried on the southern ,took too long to get on and off at stations

 

[swt_passenger]

Pity other operators don't have the inventiveness and energy of Chiltern when it comes to development... I have a scheme in mind for Southern / South West trains thats almost identical to what Chiltern are doing around Banbury (just a short chord line between two existing lines to open up a whole range of new transport options) but theres no point in just randomly sending it in, because it will just get ignored!

Just noticed this, are you thinking of Eastleigh perhaps?

If so you've got until March to put forward suggestions, NR have listed all the 'too difficult' options in the draft London and SE RUS - (which has a separate section for south Hants stuff because it wasn't done properly last time)...

 

[fgwrich]

Just noticed this, are you thinking of Eastleigh perhaps?

If so you've got until March to put forward suggestions, NR have listed all the 'too difficult' options in the draft London and SE RUS - (which has a separate section for south Hants stuff because it wasn't done properly last time)...

Sorry to go off topic for a moment but - whats this about Eastleigh?

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry to go off topic for a moment but - whats this about Eastleigh?

Might not even be about Eastleigh, unless 'Waddon' confirms it, but there have been many calls for a chord to allow services from the Botley line directly towards Southampton, avoiding reversal at Eastleigh. It's about the only place I can think of affecting SN and SWT where such a chord is proposed.

But in the latest RUS I mentioned, NR explain why it isn't so easy, what with the railway works, the depot, and the airport safety zone all being in the way.

 

[cslusarc]

Could the service not be altered to run as thus:

6tph ex-Marylebone, all non-stop to Harrow; then
2tph fast to Moor Park, then all to Chesham
2tph fast to Moor Park, then all to Aylesbury
2tph fast to Amersham, then Aylesbury, then all to MKC

Sounds interesting. Might work if all LUL Metropolitan Line services terminated a Moor Park and all services beyond were operated by Chiltern.