Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[JonathanH]

With all the best will in the world, the RMT won't be able to fight against this forever. In 20 years, I find it likely outside major locations (and even then numbers will probably be cut down), the humble ticket office at your local station will become a thing of the past.

Yes, but I don't think someone working at the station should be. This is exactly the point. If someone with some awareness is working a gateline or is present to give assistance, even help passengers buy tickets that is a good thing. Moving them out from the ticket counter frees them up to provide greater assistance to passengers.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, but I don't think someone working at the station should be. This is exactly the point. If someone with some awareness is working a gateline or is present to give assistance, even help passengers buy tickets that is a good thing. Moving them out from the ticket counter frees them up to provide greater assistance to passengers.

To which I don't disagree - a general "customer service" role is probably more beneficial all around anyway, although some may resent it. The physical ticket office can remain a useful back-office location and a position of safety, should staff need it.

 

[43066]

Yes, but I don't think someone working at the station should be. This is exactly the point. If someone with some awareness is working a gateline or is present to give assistance, even help passengers buy tickets that is a good thing. Moving them out from the ticket counter frees them up to provide greater assistance to passengers.

Agree with that.

 

[JonathanH]

Probably the subject for a speculative thread but if demand for the railway reduces, how will TOCs manage to pay the leasing costs on rolling stock sat doing next to nothing due to lost ticket revenue?

They will just lease less of it. Newer rolling stock will need to be moved around the system to eliminate older stock. The problem at the moment is that it can't all be redeployed easily.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Re ASLEF strike
Booked on Avanti to Glasgow to Euston Sat 13th August (on the last train).
What are my chances of getting back on anything?
LNER also on strike.
No Sleeper as it's Saturday (and I can't stomach coming back in the seats on the Friday straight from a concert).
Would AWC refund me the difference between their ticket and a Scotrail & Lumo (which ATM still available) combo via Edinburgh or a hotel room?

 

[jayah]

Probably the subject for a speculative thread but if demand for the railway reduces, how will TOCs manage to pay the leasing costs on rolling stock sat doing next to nothing due to lost ticket revenue?

They'll just scrap it all. HSTs, 319s, 321s, 458s there is always plenty of mid life and beyond waiting to be paid off.

 

[dk1]

Probably the subject for a speculative thread but if demand for the railway reduces, how will TOCs manage to pay the leasing costs on rolling stock sat doing next to nothing due to lost ticket revenue?

Tax payer just picks up the tab.

 

[43066]

I don't mind in the least if staff are paid for turning up for work, even if the actions of others prevents them from actually working. My point is that strike action may be hurting rail users more than it's hurting Government or rail management. And therefore it risks damaging the industry in the longer term, which in turn damages the chances of better future pay and conditions for all staff. That is sad as even though I've never been directly employed by the railways (which is why I have to "presume" on some aspects!), I still think it's an excellent industry which ought to be run better and which deserves greater consideration by Government.

Sorry missed this earlier. All valid points. Worth remembering that nobody takes pleasure in the inconvenience caused by strike action. The staff involved also end up severely out of pocket, of course, so it really is a last resort which people don’t undertake lightly. The strength of support for action in the recent ballots has been quite breathtaking. That should give some insight into the current atmosphere.

Speaking of which, the below excellent post sums it up perfectly:

Do indulge me in a bit of a ramble as I've posted elsewhere. I'm not having a great week with getting my head around things.

Meanwhile we are told on our TOC in the Eastern side of the Midlands that leisure is running at between 110%-120% of pre COVID with overall traffic levels in the high 80% (yes, that means they've taken a hit on commuting) with fewer trains running on a lot of routes, and one of the main concerns being having enough trains in traffic to cater for demand - something that isn't achieved most days. We already plan to have more carriages overall than the pre COVID plans for the franchise.

BR had already axed most of the station staff to optimise on on board staffing and most trains are guard self dispatch away from the major hub stations that have busier platform working.

Guards on each train are a sunk cost but most routes being hourly you need far fewer of them than on a metro service and certainly it's rare for me to take less than about £300-£400 in revenue, rising up to £700 on "good" days, and that is in the modern era of TVMs and e-tickets.

If we had more reliable trains and more of them I would say that we provide a well liked and fairly efficient train service that struggles to cope with demand, if anything.

I get the feeling from all sides that we still have a pretty bright future and it is frustrating that the Government has decided to take this opportunity to thoroughly upset the apple cart.

"Staff in the East Midlands franchise do a very good job. We want this quality to be preserved and developed. We want to ensure that people working on the franchise have the information, training and tools they need to communicate effectively with passengers, and to create an environment they are proud of and enthusiastic to work in. We expect a commitment from the new operator to develop its workforce, including employing apprentices."

Department for Transport in it's franchise consultation.

The DfT has already achieved Sundays in the working week for both drivers and guards, with the exception of a few legacy staff on old contracts. The latest iteration of that was signed off with DfT consent just this year. So Shapps' rumbling about Sundays doesn't apply to us. Fire and rehire can only mean trying to cut our pay and as someone earning £31k per year in this era of spiralling inflation (my home energy costs are going up by 10% of my take home pay in August) this does not feel fair.

I feel very much in a rock or a hard place position and the impact on my customers - bearing in mind we are local trains for local people and I've been seeing them for years - is causing me no shortage of genuine distress and I'm struggling to make sense of everything. Factory and warehouse workers in the former Notts coalfield can't work from home and can't afford 10-15 mile taxi rides.

It is horrible and I spent much of my shifts on Monday and Tuesday talking to passengers about what was occurring and helping them look at alternative options. I cannot take the viewpoint mentioned by other colleagues that's simply "they'll be back, they always are".

I've spent my whole career having various other jobs suggested to me but I've remained a guard because I generally for the most part like people and want to do my best by them. "F**k 'em" is not an attitude that is compatible with my personality.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Would AWC refund me the difference between their ticket and a Scotrail & Lumo (which ATM still available) combo via Edinburgh or a hotel room?

No. You will almost certainly be able to get a full refund on your ticket but they are not going to pay for your hotel room.

 

[trainophile]

Re ASLEF strike
Booked on Avanti to Glasgow to Euston Sat 13th August (on the last train).
What are my chances of getting back on anything?
LNER also on strike.
No Sleeper as it's Saturday (and I can't stomach coming back in the seats on the Friday straight from a concert).
Would AWC refund me the difference between their ticket and a Scotrail & Lumo (which ATM still available) combo via Edinburgh or a hotel room?

They should refund you for the ticket you can't use due to the strike, but after that it's up to you what you do instead.

This is going to affect the hoteliers who only offer "non refundable" bookings, nobody is going to take those unless they don't use trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is factually incorrect, as explained above. It’s also disingenuous of you to make such a statement.

You keep moving the goalposts, I can only keep repeating myself, so perhaps we should park that particular point. The posts are there for anyone who wishes to read back over them.

No no I assure you the goalposts are exactly where they were left, it's just that you have dodged and weaved around the core issue your perspective keeps changing. And the core question is, what would have happened without that extra support? Would the TOCs carried on carrying around fresh air at the levels they did, continue to pay staff as normal with vastly reduced revenue streams.

Come on, I know you are not daft and just don't want to back down and admit that the extra money pumped into the industry staved off what happened a lot elsewhere.

Always looking down… There are sectors where people have been given large pay rises, even above inflation. But we aren’t ever talking about those sectors on here, are we!?

There have, but most are not publicly funded, and if they are there numbers are very small. Doesn't make it right, but that's the government for you.

Even if we accept TOC staff are public sector just for a second (as you know I don’t think they should be) there are *true* public sector workers who have also been fully funded throughout covid, who have been offered better pay deals than TOC staff have been (a big fat zero for most TOCs so far).

Yeah that because, you know, we've always been publicly funded. We wouldn't be public sector if we weren't. The reason your industry has been sucked in is because the private sector can't make it work. So maybe, just maybe the industry instead of blaming everyone else for this current situation needs to reflect inwards for a bit? These threads have been somewhat revealing of the culture that seems to exist from top right through to bottom in your industry, and perhaps sheds some light on why private companies are ditching it.

 

[jayah]

Here’s a list of all the ASLEF dates

Shapps was on the radio earlier talking about a calendar of dates that he has been Transport Secretary and there has either been strike action or a mandate for strike action has been in place, waiting to be activated, on the railway.

It was literally every single day. He has been SoS for a week over 3 years.

It is clear that holding negotiations with the threat of strike action if they don't get their way is a well established tactic.

Strikes have become the first resort not the last.

 

[MikeWM]

But again there, people's actions aren't consistent with that fight either as they seek to use e-tickets for long distance journeys and PAYG for shorter distances. That is very much the direction of travel.

Though how much of that is 'seeking' to do it, how much is being 'nudged' to do it, and how much is it that the old ways of doing things are being made so difficult/expensive that people have little choice? (And how much is because we were told consistently, for over two years, that by doing things the way we've done it for decades, we were endangering people's lives and killing grannies?)

Personally, I want to go to a ticket office, pay for a ticket in cash to a friendly member of staff, and get a paper ticket in return, that doesn't cost any more than some alternative method of getting a ticket. But this is - quite deliberately - being made more and more difficult.

I'm sure there are many who think these new ways are more convenient, but many of us prefer such things the way they were, for quite a wide variety of reasons. We're being pushed away, we're not *choosing* to change.

 

[baz962]

Shapps was on the radio earlier talking about a calendar of dates that he has been Transport Secretary and there has either been strike action or a mandate for strike action has been in place, waiting to be activated, on the railway.

It was literally every single day. He has been SoS for a week over 3 years.

It is clear that holding negotiations with the threat of strike action if they don't get their way is a well established tactic.

Strikes have become the first resort not the last.

Nonsense. I have been a driver a little over four years and have never even discussed a strike in that time, until now. And even now it's just discussion. Never balloted and never voted.

 

[jayah]

I'm sure the strikers don't want to (intentionally) hurt the travelling public but they're certainly not hurting the Government. The Government don't give two hoots as most of them don't travel by train.

It is a mystery what they are trying to do. Productivity which is the only way they will get a big % increases seems to be off the table.

Some of the unions are crowing about the deals they have done with the private FOCs.

If ASLEF went on strike in the FOCs they would go bankrupt at short order and their members would be getting statutory redundancy.

In the public railway it is different. They do not fear returning to work after a week of strikes to find their customers have had enough and they no longer have jobs.

Some of this may eventually prove misplaced, but it doesn't seem to factor into their thinking yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

Nonsense. I have been a driver a little over four years and have never even discussed a strike in that time, until now. And even now it's just discussion. Never balloted and never voted.

There are 20 odd companies and more than one union in most.

 

[whoosh]

Yes, but I don't think someone working at the station should be. This is exactly the point. If someone with some awareness is working a gateline or is present to give assistance, even help passengers buy tickets that is a good thing. Moving them out from the ticket counter frees them up to provide greater assistance to passengers.

Whilst passengers using machines to buy tickets, and ticket office staff being reduced and moved out onto the station to be face-to-face assistants is all very well in theory, the national network isn't always simple like London Underground is (where staffing arrangements were changed like this).

There's quite a few journies which are complicated - and the fare combinations are too.
The Tube, becoming more streamlined in it's staffing, might be something to aspire to, but I don't think the detail has been thought about.

 

[class 9]

Shapps was on the radio earlier talking about a calendar of dates that he has been Transport Secretary and there has either been strike action or a mandate for strike action has been in place, waiting to be activated, on the railway.

It was literally every single day. He has been SoS for a week over 3 years.

It is clear that holding negotiations with the threat of strike action if they don't get their way is a well established tactic.

Strikes have become the first resort not the last.

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Shapps mouth, the man is a crook.
I've been a Driver for just short of 30 years, both passenger and freight, this time around will the first time I've had to strike.
Also I don't think it's been mentioned, that most TOC staff aren't public sector employees, they're employed by private companies like Arriva, First etc, these companies are still paying out dividends.

 

[43066]

No no I assure you the goalposts are exactly where they were left, it's just that you have dodged and weaved around the core issue your perspective keeps changing. And the core question is, what would have happened without that extra support? Would the TOCs carried on carrying around fresh air at the levels they did, continue to pay staff as normal with vastly reduced revenue streams.

The “core question” isn’t the statement you made upthread that I was addressing….

I’m not going to respond further on this point.

Come on, I know you are not daft and just don't want to back down and admit that the extra money pumped into the industry staved off what happened a lot elsewhere.

I’ve never said it didn’t? Again - see above.

There have, but most are not publicly funded, and if they are there numbers are very small. Doesn't make it right, but that's the government for you.

The railway isn’t entirely publicly funded either.

Yeah that because, you know, we've always been publicly funded. We wouldn't be public sector if we weren't. The reason your industry has been sucked in is because the private sector can't make it work. So maybe, just maybe the industry instead of blaming everyone else for this current situation needs to reflect inwards for a bit? These threads have been somewhat revealing of the culture that seems to exist from top right through to bottom in your industry, and perhaps sheds some light on why private companies are ditching it.

The private sector hasn’t been able to make the railway work (at least in the TOC/public transport sense) since. Hmmm… pretty much since it was invented.

I suspect your comments on the culture on the railway are about as useful as my views on the culture of the civil service would be.

 

[aoa123]

On holiday for 7 days in north west scotland right now. Needed to travel mallaig to fort william but no trains running so took the bus. Bus reasonably busy but certainly not packed. Certainly no hordes of people desperately inconvenienced because of no trains.
Then took prebooked coach fw to glasgow since my sleeper was cancelled, coach full but again there were no hordes of people desperate to board the coach who had been inconvenienced because of strike action.

Will stay in glasgow tonight and return home by coach tomorrow.
Neither on the way up or as above on the way back did I see much evidence of passengers being inconvenienced and i would say this is one of the more significant train tourist routes "worlds most scenic train journeys"
I would say discretionary travel is much more likely to just jump in the car instead, certainly no shortage of cars and camper vans around mallaig and fw.

Comments like passengers doing something to support strikers such as lobbying government are laughable - i have better things to do with my time than support people who inconvenience me - and miss the demograhic of discretionary travel - personally if we have the same situation in the future i will just get in my car and write off the train, and i suspect plenty others would do the same.

So, really, what was the point of today's strikes?

 

[KM1991]

On holiday for 7 days in north west scotland right now. Needed to travel mallaig to fort william but no trains running so took the bus. Bus reasonably busy but certainly not packed. Certainly no hordes of people desperately inconvenienced because of no trains.
Then took prebooked coach fw to glasgow since my sleeper was cancelled, coach full but again there were no hordes of people desperate to board the coach who had been inconvenienced because of strike action.

Will stay in glasgow tonight and return home by coach tomorrow.
Neither on the way up or as above on the way back did I see much evidence of passengers being inconvenienced and i would say this is one of the more significant train tourist routes "worlds most scenic train journeys"
I would say discretionary travel is much more likely to just jump in the car instead, certainly no shortage of cars and camper vans around mallaig and fw.

Comments like passengers doing something to support strikers such as lobbying government are laughable - i have better things to do with my time than support people who inconvenience me - and miss the demograhic of discretionary travel - personally if we have the same situation in the future i will just get in my car and write off the train, and i suspect plenty others would do the same.

So, really, what was the point of today's strikes?

Cost the economy and DFT between them tens of millions of £.

 

[JonathanH]

So, really, what was the point of today's strikes?

What other option do you suggest the striking workers have but to strike in view if the 'nasties' proposed by their employer? Should they just back down and accept them?

 

[43066]

On holiday for 7 days in north west scotland right now. Needed to travel mallaig to fort william but no trains running so took the bus. Bus reasonably busy but certainly not packed. Certainly no hordes of people desperately inconvenienced because of no trains.
Then took prebooked coach fw to glasgow since my sleeper was cancelled, coach full but again there were no hordes of people desperate to board the coach who had been inconvenienced because of strike action.

Will stay in glasgow tonight and return home by coach tomorrow.
Neither on the way up or as above on the way back did I see much evidence of passengers being inconvenienced and i would say this is one of the more significant train tourist routes "worlds most scenic train journeys"
I would say discretionary travel is much more likely to just jump in the car instead, certainly no shortage of cars and camper vans around mallaig and fw.

Comments like passengers doing something to support strikers such as lobbying government are laughable - i have better things to do with my time than support people who inconvenience me - and miss the demograhic of discretionary travel - personally if we have the same situation in the future i will just get in my car and write off the train, and i suspect plenty others would do the same.

So, really, what was the point of today's strikes?

The point is that it’s employees exercising their democratic right to withdraw their labour in protest at the way they’re being treated.

As for your last full paragraph, is it really so difficult for you to see beyond your own basic needs and wants and empathise with others?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Shapps mouth, the man is a crook.
I've been a Driver for just short of 30 years, both passenger and freight, this time around will the first time I've had to strike.
Also I don't think it's been mentioned, that most TOC staff aren't public sector employees, they're employed by private companies like Arriva, First etc, these companies are still paying out dividends.

Since 2020 TOC staff work for what is now classified as “public non-financial corporations” which are run by private companies for a fee (from DfT).

Whether a private company pays out a dividend is immaterial. The only part of the DfT monies that can now be passed onto shareholders is that fee, that is the rule. It doesn’t matter if the private companies overall profits double or the dividend trebles or if the owning group really wants to pay you 10%, no strings, with it’s own money (!!), the DfT is contractually (through the ERMA or NRC) the one that makes the decision on pay and conditions by giving the TOC a mandate to negotiate. At the moment no TOC can offer any % figure.

 

[eldomtom2]

How practical would an indefinite work-to-rule be? These intermittent strikes seem to be failing to produce results...

 

[class 9]

Since 2020 TOC staff work for what is now classified as “public non-financial corporations” which are run by private companies for a fee (from DfT).

Whether a private company pays out a dividend is immaterial. The only part of the DfT monies that can now be passed onto shareholders is that fee, that is the rule. It doesn’t matter if the private companies overall profits double or the dividend trebles or if the owning group really wants to pay you 10%, no strings, with it’s own money (!!), the DfT is contractually (through the ERMA or NRC) the one that makes the decision on pay and conditions by giving the TOC a mandate to negotiate. At the moment no TOC can offer any % figure.

I realise as you've said, that dft control everything in a NRC, but it's immoral that a TOC can pay divends at the same time treating their staff(their only asset) with utter contempt.
I think most staff realise its the government that are the problem, hence the high turn out and large mandates on the various ballots.

 

[43066]

Since 2020 TOC staff work for what is now classified as “public non-financial corporations” which are run by private companies for a fee (from DfT).

Whether a private company pays out a dividend is immaterial. The only part of the DfT monies that can now be passed onto shareholders is that fee, that is the rule. It doesn’t matter if the private companies overall profits double or the dividend trebles or if the owning group really wants to pay you 10%, no strings, with it’s own money (!!), the DfT is contractually (through the ERMA or NRC) the one that makes the decision on pay and conditions by giving the TOC a mandate to negotiate. At the moment no TOC can offer any % figure.

The first sentence is right - there’s certainly no obligation on a company declaring dividends to give its employees a pay rise.

Sorry but the rest of it is just fundamentally wrong. Dividends can generally be paid from a company’s distributable profits which are determined by accounting practice, irrespective of whether they’re generated from fees paid, or income from other sources.

I don’t think any legislation has been passed to change that position for TOC owning groups who have benefited from ERMAs? Quite the opposite, in fact, the fees paid under the agreements are intended to include an element of profit for the companies operating the TOCs concerned.

(I’m interested here in the company law point, rather than the moral point).

 

[ashkeba]

Personally, I want to go to a ticket office, pay for a ticket in cash to a friendly member of staff, and get a paper ticket in return, that doesn't cost any more than some alternative method of getting a ticket. But this is - quite deliberately - being made more and more difficult.

I'm sure there are many who think these new ways are more convenient, but many of us prefer such things the way they were, for quite a wide variety of reasons. We're being pushed away, we're not *choosing* to change.

Even at their best, too many people found too many ticket offices closed unexpectedly, or refusing to sell them the cheaper tickets they'd identified, or temporally unable to take card payment, or unable to help change a ticket that was bought at a different ticket office because that one is run by Anglia and this one is run by West Anglia or some other excuse that sounds suspiciously like it won't make them any commission.

Meanwhile, regular passengers have season tickets or know how to ask and what their rights are.

So average passengers aren't as unhappy to lose ticket offices and paper tickets as the unions seem to be.

 

[yorkie]

Whilst passengers using machines to buy tickets, and ticket office staff being reduced and moved out onto the station to be face-to-face assistants is all very well in theory, the national network isn't always simple like London Underground is (where staffing arrangements were changed like this).

There's quite a few journies which are complicated - and the fare combinations are too.
The Tube, becoming more streamlined in it's staffing, might be something to aspire to, but I don't think the detail has been thought about.

I don't get your point; ticket office staff just sell what you ask them to sell, which would be the same as from a website. Hardly anyone uses ticket offices these days. I was at York ticket office the other day; it's now tiny and hardly anyone was there. Ten years ago there would have been a big queue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

On holiday for 7 days in north west scotland right now. Needed to travel mallaig to fort william but no trains running so took the bus. Bus reasonably busy but certainly not packed. Certainly no hordes of people desperately inconvenienced because of no trains.
Then took prebooked coach fw to glasgow since my sleeper was cancelled, coach full but again there were no hordes of people desperate to board the coach who had been inconvenienced because of strike action.

Will stay in glasgow tonight and return home by coach tomorrow.
Neither on the way up or as above on the way back did I see much evidence of passengers being inconvenienced and i would say this is one of the more significant train tourist routes "worlds most scenic train journeys"
I would say discretionary travel is much more likely to just jump in the car instead, certainly no shortage of cars and camper vans around mallaig and fw.

Comments like passengers doing something to support strikers such as lobbying government are laughable - i have better things to do with my time than support people who inconvenience me - and miss the demograhic of discretionary travel - personally if we have the same situation in the future i will just get in my car and write off the train, and i suspect plenty others would do the same.

So, really, what was the point of today's strikes?

I just make other plans on strike days; it's just going to deter people from using rail or to work from home that day or to travel on a different day.

I guess the point is to encourage people to use other modes such as their cars, buses etc and reduce the demand for rail travel? There isn't really any other point I can think of. I don't think there is really a point as such.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I realise as you've said, that dft control everything in a NRC, but it's immoral that a TOC can pay divends at the same time treating their staff(their only asset) with utter contempt.

Most TOCs don't want to treat their staff this way they are fully aware of the consequences but if the govt limit what additional costs they will accept through the NRCs to cover staff costs their hands are tied behind their backs.

 

[Watershed]

Probably the subject for a speculative thread but if demand for the railway reduces, how will TOCs manage to pay the leasing costs on rolling stock sat doing next to nothing due to lost ticket revenue?

It's not directly the TOCs' concern - they have all their costs reimbursed by the DfT. However the DfT (or their masters, the Treasury) have already demonstrated their willingness to allow stock to be taken off lease to reduce costs. Sometimes with quite shocking results - e.g. the capacity crunch on the Southern Metro due to the withdrawal of the 455s.

Re ASLEF strike
Booked on Avanti to Glasgow to Euston Sat 13th August (on the last train).
What are my chances of getting back on anything?
LNER also on strike.
No Sleeper as it's Saturday (and I can't stomach coming back in the seats on the Friday straight from a concert).
Would AWC refund me the difference between their ticket and a Scotrail & Lumo (which ATM still available) combo via Edinburgh or a hotel room?

You'd be entitled to either, but your chances of getting reimbursed upon initial contact are close to zero, I'd have thought. You may well have to escalate it to get what you're entitled to.