A south coast high speed line?

[tasky]

OK guys, I'm getting the crayons out.

What would you think, in principle, of a south coast high speed line?

The aim of the line would be to:

1) Speed up journeys between London and major cities along the south coast

2) Speed up journeys between major cities on the south coast. There is some pretty obvious low-hanging fruit here e.g. Bournemouth to Exeter is currently 3h 27m... it's about 70 miles as the crow flies

but above all

3) To relieve the Coastway, Brighton Mainline, South West mainline, Great Western mainline, and probably a couple of others, by taking a number of express non-stop services off those lines - in much the same way the HS2 Y network was meant to relieve the WCML, ECML and MML.

The point of that would be to create the capacity for an intensive local service on those lines, which would be essential for a modal shift to rail.

As I see it, the line would start in London (terminus capacity is probably a huge issue here – where should it go?), then go non-stop down to Brighton, perhaps with an intermediate stop at somewhere like Clapham Junction or East Croydon.

From Brighton it would continue west and call at something like: Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth, Exeter, and Plymouth. The aim would be to shift the fast London services to those places off the lines that currently carry them.

Another benefit from the western end would be making Plymouth and Cornwall easier to get to from to everywhere else in the country.

But the main one would be that you could run intensive services for more stations along all the other lines, while also speeding up intercity journeys.

Let's be realistic, this isn't going to happen any time soon. But should it?

 

[SynthD]

The further destinations will have a faster journey on the existing lines. From the terminus you find space at, how will you find paths? Even if you found paths, are they slow paths on twisty lines? Tunnel from Victoria to Purley? This overlaps with a recent thread about what tunnels do you want made.

The cheaper option is to redo Windmill Junction, which was fully planned then cancelled.

 

[tasky]

The further destinations will have a faster journey on the existing lines.

Why do you think that? London to Plymouth would be a very indirect 250 miles, but that distance can be done in around 2 hours on a modern high speed line (see Paris to Lyon, which is only 300km/h). It takes over 3 hours at the moment. London to Exeter wouldn't be that much longer than London to Manchester distance wise, and HS2 will bring that down to an hour. Best London to Exeter service is currently over 2 hours.

As for tunnelling, it would be the only way to do it these days - HS2 has a 4.5 mile tunnel from Euston to Old Oak Common immediately followed by an 8.4 mile tunnel from OOC to Ruislip

 

[PTR 444]

For Exeter and Plymouth, it would be better to build a dedicated high-speed line following the M4 corridor from London to Bristol, with a spur following the M5 towards Devon. That way it serves the local geography better as you can also run improved services that cater to existing demand, and it would be easier to build since you are following existing transportation corridors rather than building through unspoilt natural beauty.

I can see a case for a dedicated high speed London - Bournemouth via Brighton line, although the area is heavily urbanised with national parks in between so would be very difficult trying to find a suitable route for it. I think I created a similar thread about this some time ago so will have a dig for it.

EDIT: Here is the link to the previous thread on this subject:

Has a South Coast high speed line ever been seriously considered?

Over the years, there’s been some suggestions on these forums for a high speed line linking London with Brighton and/or Southampton. I’ve never envisaged such a route as an obvious candidate for high speed because the cities they serve are relatively close to the capital while the area is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

I can see a case for a dedicated high speed London - Bournemouth via Brighton line

Even at high speed, London to Bournemouth via Brighton (or somewhere nearby) is a substantial detour. I think you need to consider how far west a high speed route to Brighton could detour and where the junction for Southampton and Bournemouth would be. The big problem is that there aren't really significant settlements to hook the line around.

Where would you put the delta junction? Somewhere around Pulborough?

The cheaper option is to redo Windmill Junction, which was fully planned then cancelled.

It really is about time that this is removed from the Network Rail website. I appreciate it says that "Further development of CARS has been affected by issues such as the significant uncertainty about future passenger behaviour and demand following the COVID-19 pandemic and funding constraints following the Governments 2020 Spending Review." but if it has been permanently cancelled all trace should be removed.

 

[PTR 444]

Even at high speed, London to Bournemouth via Brighton (or somewhere nearby) is a substantial detour. I think you need to consider how far west a high speed route to Brighton could detour and where the junction for Southampton and Bournemouth would be. The big problem is that there aren't really significant settlements to hook the line around.

Where would you put the delta junction? Somewhere around Pulborough?

I was envisaging that such a route would run due south from London to Brighton via Gatwick and Burgess Hill, with the rest of the line to Bournemouth branching off from it at a much smaller delta junction somewhere in the Westdene area (near the A23/A27 junction). This would allow it to fit within the South Downs terrain but would mean the speed limit around the corner would need to be reduced below normal HS operating speed.

 

[tasky]

It would be geographically indirect, but still likely a lot quicker than the current services if the line was built to say 320km/h – look at how indirect the London to Paris or Paris to Brussels LGVs are, and despite that they offer competitive times and are hugely popular.

 

[JonathanH]

I was envisaging that such a route would run due south from London to Brighton via Gatwick and Burgess Hill, with the rest of the line to Bournemouth branching off from it somewhere in the Westdene area (near the A23/A27 junction).

Is your route going to have an intermediate station at Gatwick? Would it sit south of the South Downs?

London (not sure where the terminal would be) to Brighton is about 50 miles. Brighton to Portsmouth is is just under 50 miles. Brighton to Bournemouth is about 85 miles but going north to Petworth only adds about 10 miles between Brighton and Bournemouth and London to Bournemouth but cuts about 20 miles off London to Bournemouth via Brighton.

It would be geographically indirect, but still likely a lot quicker than the current services if the line was built to say 320km/h – look at how indirect the London to Paris or Paris to Brussels LGVs are, and despite that they offer competitive times and are hugely popular.

Yes, I am just suggesting that the delta junction is moved north west to share the detour. I guess the point is how important it is to serve somewhere (Gatwick) between London and Brighton. Guildford would be an alternative.

 

[PTR 444]

Is your route going to have an intermediate station at Gatwick?

Yes

Would it sit south of the South Downs?

Yes

London (not sure where the terminal would be) to Brighton is about 50 miles. Brighton to Portsmouth is is just under 50 miles. Brighton to Bournemouth is about 85 miles but going north to Petworth only adds about 10 miles between Brighton and Bournemouth and London to Bournemouth but cuts about 20 miles off London to Bournemouth via Brighton.

Unless you have a giant pot of money for a tunnel, I don’t think the residents of the South Downs National Park will be very happy with your idea spoiling the landscape.

Yes, I am just suggesting that the delta junction is moved north west to share the detour. I guess the point is how important it is to serve somewhere (Gatwick) between London and Brighton. Guildford would be an alternative.

Going via Gatwick would be better for relieving capacity on the BML

 

[tasky]

I guess the point is how important it is to serve somewhere (Gatwick) between London and Brighton. Guildford would be an alternative.

Yes I wondered about Guildford as an alternative to Gatwick as well

 

[JonathanH]

Unless you have a giant pot of money for a tunnel, I don’t think the residents of the South Downs National Park will be very happy with your idea spoiling the landscape.

It is going to have to mainly go in a tunnel where ever it goes. Question is whether it can be a 'base tunnel' under the line of the South Downs. Tunnelling nearer the coast isn't going to be ideal.

 

[tasky]

Unless you have a giant pot of money for a tunnel, I don’t think the residents of the South Downs National Park will be very happy with your idea spoiling the landscape.

I think realistically this would require a lot of tunnelling were it ever to be realised (which seems unlikely). The approaches to some of the costal city stations along the way also look very tricky, and the geography of say Portsmouth in particular. But then, tunnelling is cheaper than ever and it worked for the Chilterns.

 

[JamesT]

If you wanted high speed for Bournemouth/Southampton to London, surely the line to look at upgrading or bypassing is the Reading-Basingstoke?
Rather more direct than going via Brighton and also means you're sending traffic towards Old Oak Common where it could pick up HS2 for trips further North.

 

[JonathanH]

Going via Gatwick would be better for relieving capacity on the BML

Stopping at Gatwick would just slow down journeys to Brighton. For a central London to Brighton line to make sense, it needs to pick up a lot of demand from north of London not captured by the existing lines. I'm not convinced.

What is the business case for a Brighton to London high speed line? More stops on the existing route? Brighton trains that stop all stations in South London? I think one major problem is the fact that Brighton is on the coast and doesn't have a lot of room to expand. If we were able to extend Brighton into the English Channel it might make a bit more sense.

 

[tasky]

If you wanted high speed for Bournemouth/Southampton to London, surely the line to look at upgrading or bypassing is the Reading-Basingstoke?
Rather more direct than going via Brighton and also means you're sending traffic towards Old Oak Common where it could pick up HS2 for trips further North.

For speed between those places and London perhaps, but presumably without the gains between as many cities on the coast or the capacity relief on conventional lines?

 

[JonathanH]

For speed between those places and London perhaps, but presumably without the gains between as many cities on the coast or the capacity relief on conventional lines?

What is the economic gain from being able to get from Brighton to Southampton quicker? Yes, it would be nice, but what are the relevant economic benefits?

 

[tasky]

What is the economic gain from being able to get from Brighton to Southampton quicker? Yes, it would be nice, but what are the relevant economic benefits?

Agglomeration effects. Bringing the urban areas on the south coast together into an axis would help create a well-connected region, which would likely have productivity gains.

 

[30907]

The shortest self contained HS line is Paris-Lille, a 1hr journey. Below that, the advantage of high speed is limited because most journeys from A to B aren't simple HS station to HS station. This is especially true between two conurbations - or with the "ribbon development" of Lewes to Bognor or Havant to Totton (BTW what do you do about Portsmouth?).

Once you get a decent length of HS line, this becomes less of an issue - but then he question is, what is the size of market between Greater London and Devon/Cornwall, let alone Greater Brighton-Devon/Cornwall, even with an intermediate stop at Southampton?

"Agglomeration effects" require good transport links, but not HS lines - cf Randstad in NL or the Rhein-Ruhr-Express in Germany.

 

[JonathanH]

"Agglomeration effects" require good transport links, but not HS lines - cf Randstad in NL or the Rhein-Ruhr-Express in Germany.

Yes, I would argue that a few dynamic loops on the West Coastway allowing more trains to run fast Brighton - Hove - Worthing - Chichester - Havant - Fareham - Southampton would bring more benefits than being able to have a wholly new line non-stop Brighton - Southampton.

However, justifying upgrades and work to install dynamic loops on an existing line through a built up area is almost as difficult as justifying a whole new build line.

Given the work at Windmill Junction has been binned, I don't hold out any hope for south coast remodelling, particularly with the recent rationalisation of the timetable on the line in the light of less overall railway revenue.

 

[HSTEd]

In principle I am all in favour of the idea.

I favour a routing of London-Gatwick-Brighton-Towns Westward.

It would be expensive but there is certainly enough traffic to fill a line like that, and even stopping every 30km it would still average high enough speeds to have the trains beat the current direct services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2022 ==

Once you get a decent length of HS line, this becomes less of an issue - but then he question is, what is the size of market between Greater London and Devon/Cornwall, let alone Greater Brighton-Devon/Cornwall, even with an intermediate stop at Southampton?

Given that the Brighton Main Lnie and SWML are two of the most heavily trafficked main lines in existance, I'd argue the traffic sources are self evident.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that the Brighton Main Lnie and SWML are two of the most heavily trafficked main lines in existance, I'd argue the traffic sources are self evident.

They are but given SWR have reported that peak demand is 53% of what it was in March 2020, the need for any new lines is no longer as pressing as it might have been then.

 

[Bald Rick]

How would such a line enable an intensive local service on the existing lines?

 

[JonathanH]

How would such a line enable an intensive local service on the existing lines?

Both lines from East Croydon to London Victoria could be used for stopping trains for a start.

 

[Bald Rick]

Both lines from East Croydon to London Victoria could be used for stopping trains for a start.

not much use for those people who travel from East Grinstead, Redhill, or the Arun Valley.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any development land earmarked for a station near Central London for a high speed line from the South? I can't immediately think of anywhere but assume there is some sacrificial location.

 

[AndrewE]

How would such a line enable an intensive local service on the existing lines?

The same way that HS2 is going to allow the restoration of semi-fast services on the WCML. By taking the non-stop services off it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any development land earmarked for a station near Central London for a high speed line from the South? I can't immediately think of anywhere but assume there is some sacrificial location.

none that I know of.

hence Crossrail 2.

 

[Basil Jet]

If you wanted high speed for Bournemouth/Southampton to London, surely the line to look at upgrading or bypassing is the Reading-Basingstoke?
Rather more direct than going via Brighton and also means you're sending traffic towards Old Oak Common where it could pick up HS2 for trips further North.

It looks like a fairly straight alignment from Winchfield to Terminal 5 is possible.. If the Gatwick Express can be extended to Brighton, I don't see why the Heathrow Express can't be extended to Basingstoke and Southampton.

 

[Bald Rick]

It looks like a fairly straight alignment from Winchfield to Terminal 5 is possible.. If the Gatwick Express can be extended to Brighton, I don't see why the Heathrow Express can't be extended to Basingstoke and Southampton.

Theres the small matter of the line from Gatwick to Brighton already being in existence, whilst the line from Heathrow to Basingstoke, err, isn’t? (And no prospect of it happening !)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

The same way that HS2 is going to allow the restoration of semi-fast services on the WCML. By taking the non-stop services off it.

but that’s the point. semi fast isn’t local. A high speed line from the Solent - Brighton - Gatwick - London would only enable the removal of the fast Brightons and Gatwick Expresses from the existing network; all the other stations would still need serving. Nothing would be taken off the west coastway line. I don’t see how an increased local service would result.

 

[MattRat]

I've also had thoughts about such a line, but mine would be a grand plan, not just involving this line.

I'd start at Ebbsfleet International, connecting to HS1 towards London, then work down and around to connect the South Coast to Exeter/Plymouth in a 'straight' line. I'd then connect HS1 and HS2 together, and turn Ebbsfleet International into an actual international station. Then, not only can HS2 trains use the new line, opening up more services, but, they can now interchange at Ebbsfleet for Eurostar or Javelin trains.

Of course, the one problem I could never figure out was where the London only services would terminate, so there's that.