• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Arriva Trains Wales Strike

Status
Not open for further replies.

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,737
Has anyone mentioned yet that in addition to passing assessments and a medical and having to work extremely unsocial hours, it takes 3 months to train up a new guard and 12 months for a driver and their salaries reflect their level of training and knowledge. Further more each year assessments must be passed just to keep the job!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
Has anyone mentioned yet that in addition to passing assessments and a medical and having to work extremely unsocial hours, it takes 3 months to train up a new guard and 12 months for a driver and their salaries reflect their level of training and knowledge. Further more each year assessments must be passed just to keep the job!





nah m8 we are just doing an easy job that anyone can do so we should be on minimum wage and suffer because according to some people everyone else is!
 

Kneedown

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2007
Messages
1,837
Location
Nottinghamshire
Have i missed something here? but are the vast majority of ATW Drivers in the RMT?
I would have thought that a large majority would be in ASLEF, in which case any action by RMT Drivers would have little effect as any ASLEF Driver striking in sympathy would be heading to the Jobcentre for his next trip.

Also, over previous pages there seems to have been a fair bit of sniping at "Overpaid" Drivers, some of it from other traincrew.
Whilst i agree that bus and coach drivers, and indeed everyone, should be paid a fair salary, you cannot compare driving a train to driving a bus, it's a totally different skill. Yes, bus drivers are responsible for the lives of people, and i do not belittle the job in any way. I know that there is a bit more to it than driving a car. One has to have better spacial awareness when making turns for instance.
A train driver is paid for his/her knowledge. They must know the rule book, and know exactly what, sometimes very extensive, procedures must be taken in many different instances, under many different types of working, degraded working, signalling systems etc. In addition he must also know his own, TOC specific instructions for the above, and there could potentially be hundreds of different variations and situations a Driver could encounter, each requiring the correct action. Any mistake could well result in disciplinary action, or worse. In addition, the Driver must also know the routes he drives over, and when i say "know", i mean it. He must know the locations of all signals, what routes he is permitted to take from those signals, which signalbox controls the signals and the block system in use. He must know the locations of all stations and how many coaches each platform may hold, which platforms are permissive and which are not. He must know the speeds he is permitted to travel at along the whole route, including fast and slow lines,through all junctions, and for whatever type of train he is driving, and indeed what traction is permitted over a route and what is not. Total route knowledge may extend to thousands of track miles, of which he must know by day and night, in clear weather and in thick fog - it is rare that we have the luxury of being able to reduce our speed when it's foggy! We must also know the traction we drive over these routes, sometimes many different types, and they all have differences, even within the same class. We have to know how they handle, braking characteristics, in different weather situations and at different times of year. we must also know what has potentially caused a fault or failure, whether it can be repaired by ourselves or whether it needs more specialist attention, and whether the train, or part of the train, is permitted to continue in service with a certain fault.
There is a whole lot more but i am getting bored with typing now. Remember that we are assessed on all the above knowledge every two years to maintain our competancy. In addition we are subject to random monitoring which normally consists of a given number of OTMR downloads, and rides out with a manager, every year. Any shortfall in knowledge or competancy will be picked up very swiftly. There is no blagging it.

I don't think i'm overpaid. I think i'm fairly paid. If anyone resents my salary then my advice is that there is nothing stopping you applying to be a Driver.
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
just a cpl of questions for you tho, do you think it is fair that the avg guard gets approx 15k less than driver, we have to know route knowledge not as extensively as a driver but syill have to know line speeds junctions boxes etc etc also we have to know basic traction, we have to know alot more than a driver about each station disabled access etc. Plus revenue and customer service, we are trained in pts and full protection and so are safety critical and to put it bluntly if in an accident the driver is incapacitated its the guard that does their utmost in keeping the passengers safe, i admit route knowledge and traction wise drivers know more but does that constitute a 15k difference??
 

Kneedown

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2007
Messages
1,837
Location
Nottinghamshire
just a cpl of questions for you tho, do you think it is fair that the avg guard gets approx 15k less than driver, we have to know route knowledge not as extensively as a driver but syill have to know line speeds junctions boxes etc etc also we have to know basic traction, we have to know alot more than a driver about each station disabled access etc. Plus revenue and customer service, we are trained in pts and full protection and so are safety critical and to put it bluntly if in an accident the driver is incapacitated its the guard that does their utmost in keeping the passengers safe, i admit route knowledge and traction wise drivers know more but does that constitute a 15k difference??

It's not for me to say what a Guard is worth as i'm not one. All i've said is that i think i'm paid fairly. I will say that i value the Guards input tremendously and feel that they are generally undervalued. My mate found out the importance of the Guard at Barrow on Soar a few years back. It was the Guard who kept him awake and his spirits up while waiting to be freed from his cab. It would've been many times worse for him if he was DOO. A good Guard is the salt of the earth!
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
The trouble with the majority of your statements about the publuc being pi55ed off with the RMT etc etc seems to go against the fact that Rail has not been this popular for about 80 years, the public don't hate the RMT anywhere near as much as you Captain,RMT/ASLEF

AFAIK the public doesn't hate me at all! :D

No-one is suggesting rail workers shouldn't get a fair wage and conditions, but the RMT's demands are totally unreasonable and that what pi55es off a cash-strapped public.
 

Legzr1

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2010
Messages
581
Have i missed something here? but are the vast majority of ATW Drivers in the RMT?
I would have thought that a large majority would be in ASLEF, in which case any action by RMT Drivers would have little effect as any ASLEF Driver striking in sympathy would be heading to the Jobcentre for his next trip.

Also, over previous pages there seems to have been a fair bit of sniping at "Overpaid" Drivers, some of it from other traincrew.
Whilst i agree that bus and coach drivers, and indeed everyone, should be paid a fair salary, you cannot compare driving a train to driving a bus, it's a totally different skill. Yes, bus drivers are responsible for the lives of people, and i do not belittle the job in any way. I know that there is a bit more to it than driving a car. One has to have better spacial awareness when making turns for instance.
A train driver is paid for his/her knowledge. They must know the rule book, and know exactly what, sometimes very extensive, procedures must be taken in many different instances, under many different types of working, degraded working, signalling systems etc. In addition he must also know his own, TOC specific instructions for the above, and there could potentially be hundreds of different variations and situations a Driver could encounter, each requiring the correct action. Any mistake could well result in disciplinary action, or worse. In addition, the Driver must also know the routes he drives over, and when i say "know", i mean it. He must know the locations of all signals, what routes he is permitted to take from those signals, which signalbox controls the signals and the block system in use. He must know the locations of all stations and how many coaches each platform may hold, which platforms are permissive and which are not. He must know the speeds he is permitted to travel at along the whole route, including fast and slow lines,through all junctions, and for whatever type of train he is driving, and indeed what traction is permitted over a route and what is not. Total route knowledge may extend to thousands of track miles, of which he must know by day and night, in clear weather and in thick fog - it is rare that we have the luxury of being able to reduce our speed when it's foggy! We must also know the traction we drive over these routes, sometimes many different types, and they all have differences, even within the same class. We have to know how they handle, braking characteristics, in different weather situations and at different times of year. we must also know what has potentially caused a fault or failure, whether it can be repaired by ourselves or whether it needs more specialist attention, and whether the train, or part of the train, is permitted to continue in service with a certain fault.
There is a whole lot more but i am getting bored with typing now. Remember that we are assessed on all the above knowledge every two years to maintain our competancy. In addition we are subject to random monitoring which normally consists of a given number of OTMR downloads, and rides out with a manager, every year. Any shortfall in knowledge or competancy will be picked up very swiftly. There is no blagging it.

I don't think i'm overpaid. I think i'm fairly paid. If anyone resents my salary then my advice is that there is nothing stopping you applying to be a Driver.


Kneedown said:
It's not for me to say what a Guard is worth as i'm not one. All i've said is that i think i'm paid fairly. I will say that i value the Guards input tremendously and feel that they are generally undervalued. My mate found out the importance of the Guard at Barrow on Soar a few years back. It was the Guard who kept him awake and his spirits up while waiting to be freed from his cab. It would've been many times worse for him if he was DOO. A good Guard is the salt of the earth!

Excellent posts and I've made some similar points myself over the weeks.

Naturally,totally ignored by some...



Captain Speaking said:
No-one is suggesting rail workers shouldn't get a fair wage and conditions, but the RMT's demands are totally unreasonable and that what pi55es off a cash-strapped public.

Quick question:


Who made you the spokesman for the public?:roll:
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
AFAIK the public doesn't hate me at all! :D

No-one is suggesting rail workers shouldn't get a fair wage and conditions, but the RMT's demands are totally unreasonable and that what pi55es off a cash-strapped public.

seems to pi55 you off alot more than anyone else, maybe you should try and get elected as an MP for the we hate Traincrew and the Unions party, i'm sure you would be really successful about whining about exactlly the same thing in the majority of your posts

 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
Happy to have Captain Speaking on my behalf. Refusing 12%????? Your having a laugh.:-x



but by accepting the 12% and losing alot of conditions etc. It would be deemed a p,oor offer, which i presume is the case
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
The RMT deny it is worth 12% at all. According to BBC Wales, ht eoffer involves the introduction of split shifts as well as committed Sundays. I don;t know how true that is, though if it is I may have to move from my original opinion that it's a reasonable offer in the circumstances!
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
The RMT deny it is worth 12% at all. According to BBC Wales, ht eoffer involves the introduction of split shifts as well as committed Sundays. I don;t know how true that is, though if it is I may have to move from my original opinion that it's a reasonable offer in the circumstances!



No one in their right mind would accept split shifts, they are ghastly if you have a family, sundays i don't have a problem with
 

Pacerpilot

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2010
Messages
347
The RMT deny it is worth 12% at all. According to BBC Wales, ht eoffer involves the introduction of split shifts as well as committed Sundays. I don;t know how true that is, though if it is I may have to move from my original opinion that it's a reasonable offer in the circumstances!

The Base figure was/is 3.7% for 2010 (well below the RPI figure for the pay award anniversary date) and 4% for 2011. The rest of the fabled 12% is made up from selling conditions.

The offer that was refused did indeed include committed Sundays, which is compulsory overtime as far as Im concerned. And this was to be worked for less money than is currently paid as the removal of the current Sunday additional payment was negotiated away.
 

Pacerpilot

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2010
Messages
347
That said, I dont think it would be workable with breaking the Hidden agreements for Saftey Critical staff, where they are required to have a minimum of 12hrs rest between turns.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Good point. Maybe it would depend on the definition of what a turn is? Is there a way for ATW (or any other TOC) to try and say that a turn is 11 hours long with a 3 hour unpaid rest break in the middle?
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
My wife works night shiifts in the NHS with a 1 hour "unpaid" break in the middle. However, she is still required to remain awake and on the premises during this break (in case of any emergencies). The NHS unions say that this is acceptable and legal, and diciplinary action has been successfully brought against staff who have breached it.

If "unpaid" breaks were introduced in the railway and TOC's could get away with similar conditions, it would be a very dangerous situation...
 

HSTfan!!!

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
1,975
Have i missed something here? but are the vast majority of ATW Drivers in the RMT?

I'm lead to believe it's very few ATW drivers who are in the RMT, however naturally ASLEF drivers will not cross their picket lines.
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
I'm lead to believe it's very few ATW drivers who are in the RMT, however naturally ASLEF drivers will not cross their picket lines.

its the only time ASLEF and the RMT don't bicker like school children lol, if only those 2 would get their collective acts together they could instigate real change for the better
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
seems to pi55 you off alot more than anyone else, maybe you should try and get elected as an MP for the we hate Traincrew and the Unions party, i'm sure you would be really successful about whining about exactlly the same thing in the majority of your posts


NG, your responses continue to demonstrate that you don't see the big picture and you seem only capable of rather childish attacks on me rather than seriously addressing the points I raise. Perhaps you lack the capability so to do.:s

I do believe in challenging entrenched views and that's a standpoint that has served me well throughout my career (now happily and succesfully retired, thanks, and doing lots of stuff I enjoy!) so don't expect me to be a wilting violet here - it's just not me. Maybe my mistake is to expect more intelligent argument rather than facile and cheap remarks from one or two on this forum (thankfully, a small minority).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
I have to say, I find ANorthernGuards posts on here some of the better ones, giving the view from a rail professionals point of view.
 

Greeny

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2009
Messages
151
Location
North West
I have to say, I find ANorthernGuards posts on here some of the better ones, giving the view from a rail professionals point of view.

Agreed. So far I have yet to see ANorthernGuard attack anybody first. He remains polite even when some individuals attack him. I have to take my hat of to him - he has more patience than I in the face of such attacks.

G.
 

Legzr1

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2010
Messages
581
Happy to have Captain Speaking on my behalf. Refusing 12%????? Your having a laugh.:-x

Then hopefully one of you can quote some facts rather than repeating bollox from certain media.

Why don't you two start a union?




As for NG,I agree with the previous posts.

Perhaps it's time for others to question their own motives and perhaps change their argumentative styles.

Or perhaps these cheap shots / posts designed to annoy are the hobbies of the 'successfully retired' :roll:
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Shhhhhhh.....don't give them ideas!

Oops, sorry! Though I think it may have already occurred to them!

My wife works night shiifts in the NHS with a 1 hour "unpaid" break in the middle. However, she is still required to remain awake and on the premises during this break (in case of any emergencies). The NHS unions say that this is acceptable and legal, and diciplinary action has been successfully brought against staff who have breached it.

If "unpaid" breaks were introduced in the railway and TOC's could get away with similar conditions, it would be a very dangerous situation...

I agree.

As an aside, I have heard that the NHS unions are pretty useless, and I'm sure that an Employment Appeals Tribunal once ruled that someone who was given unpaid breaks but had to remain on the premises in case soemthing happened, was not free to decide how to spend their time and so were technically working. They were given back pay for the period this happened, as it was ruled to be illegal. Of course, I may have remembered this wrongly, and the judgement could have been overturned, or rendered obsolete by changes in the law! In any case, this probably isn;t the best place to start that sort of a debate!

I have to say, I find ANorthernGuards posts on here some of the better ones, giving the view from a rail professionals point of view.

Once again, I agree. I will always defend a workers right to be represented by a union, and to defend their terms and conditions. It would be nice if the personal attacks on union members, unions and their leaders could stop, it's getting tedious!
 

scotsman

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2010
Messages
3,252
I have to say, I find ANorthernGuards posts on here some of the better ones, giving the view from a rail professionals point of view.

Hear, hear!
I also find his posts refreshing in a forum increasingly populated with cheap personal attacks against people who won't be swayed by their viewpoint.
 

bnm

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,992
If you are looking for 'cheap personal attacks' then take a look through ANorthernGuard's posting history, particularly on threads covering union actions.

I would quote and post some of the things he's said in response to those who take a differing point of view, but that would no doubt also be seen as a 'cheap personal attack'.

For the record, it's only the RMT and Bob Crow I have issues with. I've worked, briefly, as agency Customer Service staff in the rail industry and have seen first hand how union agreements work only for the benefit and comfort of the staff with no consideration for the passenger. I was doing work that the contracted staff had refused to do as they had no union agreement in place. It made me angry when I was told off by a shop steward that I shouldn't help an elderly lady with her luggage as 'we're not paid to lift luggage, and if you do it folks will expect us all to do it.'

During a period of major disruption I was told by self same shop steward that I had to go on my lunch break leaving no-one to cover my role for an hour. I worked on, providing information for passengers, and was then ostracised by the union old timers at my location. To the extent that I wasn't welcome in 'their' mess room.

I have been a member of USDAW in the past. Currently, as I'm unemployed I'm not a paid up union member. But it's not something I dismiss out of hand - unless I'm in a position where the RMT is the only show in town. Then I'll take my chances without them or look for representation elsewhere.
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
Thankyou very much for the comments guys, put a smile on my face :), I stand by what I believe in, always have always will. Now if I inconvenience some members of this forum by doing so...so be it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you are looking for 'cheap personal attacks' then take a look through ANorthernGuard's posting history, particularly on threads covering union actions.

I would quote and post some of the things he's said in response to those who take a differing point of view, but that would no doubt also be seen as a 'cheap personal attack'.

For the record, it's only the RMT and Bob Crow I have issues with. I've worked, briefly, as agency Customer Service staff in the rail industry and have seen first hand how union agreements work only for the benefit and comfort of the staff with no consideration for the passenger. I was doing work that the contracted staff had refused to do as they had no union agreement in place. It made me angry when I was told off by a shop steward that I shouldn't help an elderly lady with her luggage as 'we're not paid to lift luggage, and if you do it folks will expect us all to do it.'

During a period of major disruption I was told by self same shop steward that I had to go on my lunch break leaving no-one to cover my role for an hour. I worked on, providing information for passengers, and was then ostracised by the union old timers at my location. To the extent that I wasn't welcome in 'their' mess room.

I have been a member of USDAW in the past. Currently, as I'm unemployed I'm not a paid up union member. But it's not something I dismiss out of hand - unless I'm in a position where the RMT is the only show in town. Then I'll take my chances without them or look for representation elsewhere.

I am sorry if you see some of my posts as "cheap personal attacks" however that is your opinion fair enough, however if anyone thinks I will idly sit by and watch people attack my colleagues or my union for doing their best for who is concerned they are mistaken, of course a union looks after its members 1st, thats what they are there for, yes I support the RMT whole heartedly and will continue to do so, and yes the RMT do not have the customers interests at heart no union does, but let me make this very clear, when I am at work I will bend over backwards and go that extra mile everytime to do my job to the best of my ability, what the union does is protect its members, long may they keep doing so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
NG, your responses continue to demonstrate that you don't see the big picture and you seem only capable of rather childish attacks on me rather than seriously addressing the points I raise. Perhaps you lack the capability so to do.:s

I do believe in challenging entrenched views and that's a standpoint that has served me well throughout my career (now happily and succesfully retired, thanks, and doing lots of stuff I enjoy!) so don't expect me to be a wilting violet here - it's just not me. Maybe my mistake is to expect more intelligent argument rather than facile and cheap remarks from one or two on this forum (thankfully, a small minority).

Captain with the utmost respect, stop trying to provoke arguments, you are just making yourself look silly, childish and someone with an obvious grudge against Railway staff, I am sure your i.q. is considerably higher than mine and you are in a nice big posh office etc. etc.

BUT

unless you have worked on the railway or been brought up on it (I have by the way) you obviously do not have an idea how the railway works, yes railway workers can be militant and yes I do not agree with hardly anything you say, but I will never change my standpoint so may I say we will just have to agree to disagree as this is getting petty
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top