Arriva Trains Wales Strike

[ANorthernGuard]

LOL What has thick fog got to do with it? The thing is on rails, supervised by signalmen and controlled by onboard computer systems as well as the signalling systems. A coach driver driving through thick fog has only his eyes and reactions to use. No contest mate if you're talking about risk, skill and safety. I know where i would want to be in those circumstances and that would be on a train ! lol

maybe before criticizing you should actually have a go, i,m no driver but i do know they have to know a hell of alot, let alone what you seem to think

 

[strange6]

maybe before criticizing you should actually have a go, i,m no driver but i do know they have to know a hell of alot, let alone what you seem to think

Who's criticizing? (sic) Have I said one bad thing about train drivers? Please quote me if i have. I have my opinion and if you don't like it then fair enough lol

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Who's criticizing? (sic) Have I said one bad thing about train drivers? Please quote me if i have. I have my opinion and if you don't like it then fair enough lol

i have no problem with your opinion just the total inaccuracy of it lol

 

[strange6]

i have no problem with your opinion just the total inaccuracy of it lol

I would probably revise my opinion if the trains of today were steam or the early generation DMU's but they're not and technology has made the drivers lot a hell of a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, today's drivers job is still highly skilled and specialised and I have total respect for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would probably revise my opinion if the trains of today were steam or the early generation DMU's but they're not and technology has made the drivers lot a hell of a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, today's drivers job is still highly skilled and specialised and I have total respect for it.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for what i say but I mean no offence - just my opinion guys!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

the rules and regs test alone is enough to fry most peoples minds then they have the different traction basic mechanical fault finding etc. Then the routes and depending on the depot there can be quite a few, hence the 9 months of training

and I have no problem with your opinion lol

 

[strange6]

the rules and regs test alone is enough to fry most peoples minds then they have the different traction basic mechanical fault finding etc. Then the routes and depending on the depot there can be quite a few, hence the 9 months of training

I totally agree with you my friend. It's not easy at all and the learning is considerable. I have a M.Eng degree so I do appreciate what they have to do. Hats off to them all.

And I'm hoping to drive something very similar to my avatar this coming summer so i'll come back to you about the actual driving! lol

 

[CosherB]

Are you really stupid or is it an elaborate act? :roll:

Are you a railway person too? Are you all bloody rude? Read some responses to your preposterous post before calling me stupid. But don't overstrain your braincell. You might need it, you know, to remember to push that button when that bell rings in the cab.

It seems what you lot need is a long cold swim in lake reality. It would be increadibly easy to completely automate train driving. The job really IS that simple.

A Boeing 747-400 or better yet an Airbus A380 is an immensly more complex machine than any train. Far from sitting on rails on the ground it operates at 40,000 feet in an environment where human beings can't exist. It operates in 3-dimensions. It operates in weather you just don't see on the ground. And it operates at almost 600mph. Sometimes it operates at a fine balance of speed of only a few knots (coffin corner) between aerodynamic stall in the thin air of high altitude, and mach stall due to parts of the wing going transonic. Then it has to descend in a precisely controlled manner, according to Air Traffic instructions, and locate, possibly in thick fog, 2 miles of tarmac to land on.

It has to align with that tarmac tenmiles out, regardless of cross winds and turbulence, and follow a precise, invisible 3 degree glideslope to the threshold. During the transition from high speed cruise to final approach is has to completely reconfigure the wings to produce more lift and more drag.

Then, at about 150mph all 600 tons has to smoothly transition from wingbourn lift to 'weight on the wheels'. Then it has to slow down and stop in the runway length remaining, and taxy to the terminal

All of that is about a million times more complex than driving a train.

Yet 95% of that operation can be automated. The only reason it's not is that if anything goes wrong you can't just turn off the power and brake to a halt like any ground vehicle can. You need a pilot to handle the situation.

A completely automatic train wouldn't need that human backstop.

So perhaps, if train drivers go on strike and pi55 people off, they might just find that a few electronic gizmos have replaced them. It would be soooo easy!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Are you a railway person too? Are you all bloody rude? Read some responses to your preposterous post before calling me stupid. But don't overstrain your braincell. You might need it, you know, to remember to push that button when that bell rings in the cab.

It seems what you lot need is a long cold swim in lake reality. It would be increadibly easy to completely automate train driving. The job really IS that simple.

A Boeing 747-400 or better yet an Airbus A380 is an immensly more complex machine than any train. Far from sitting on rails on the ground it operates at 40,000 feet in an environment where human beings can't exist. It operates in 3-dimensions. It operates in weather you just don't see on the ground. And it operates at almost 600mph. Sometimes it operates at a fine balance of speed of only a few knots (coffin corner) between aerodynamic stall in the thin air of high altitude, and mach stall due to parts of the wing going transonic. Then it has to descend in a precisely controlled manner, according to Air Traffic instructions, and locate, possibly in thick fog, 2 miles of tarmac to land on.

It has to align with that tarmac tenmiles out, regardless of cross winds and turbulence, and follow a precise, invisible 3 degree glideslope to the threshold. During the transition from high speed cruise to final approach is has to completely reconfigure the wings to produce more lift and more drag.

Then, at about 150mph all 600 tons has to smoothly transition from wingbourn lift to 'weight on the wheels'. Then it has to slow down and stop in the runway length remaining, and taxy to the terminal

All of that is about a million times more complex than driving a train.

Yet 95% of that operation can be automated. The only reason it's not is that if anything goes wrong you can't just turn off the power and brake to a halt like any ground vehicle can. You need a pilot to handle the situation.

A completely automatic train wouldn't need that human backstop.

So perhaps, if train drivers go on strike and pi55 people off, they might just find that a few electronic gizmos have replaced them. It would be soooo easy!

kettle...pot anyone?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I totally agree with you my friend. It's not easy at all and the learning is considerable. I have a M.Eng degree so I do appreciate what they have to do. Hats off to them all.

And I'm hoping to drive something very similar to my avatar this coming summer so i'll come back to you about the actual driving! lol

i'll hold you to that lol, i think you will be surprised lol

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

kettle...pot anyone?

He must have heard the old joke-

In future airliner crews will consist of 1 human and 1 chimp.

The human will be there to feed the chimp.

The chimp will be there to make sure the human doesn't touch anything.

 

[313103]

I actually think that Captain Speaking is a W U M, What do you think?


Written in time honoured Captain Speaking fashion, ask a question not happy with answer ask another similar question!

 

[strange6]

kettle...pot anyone?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


i'll hold you to that lol, i think you will be surprised lol


I do know for a fact that these early DMU's are not easy at all to operate. But then again, they are 100 percent mechanical which makes all the difference

 

[Actual driver]

Year 1
Basic rate increase of 3.7%
Addl payment of 0.8% for introduction of cross cover agreement
Addl payment of 2.5% for committed sundays (No commitment at present)
Sunday booking on payment to be abolished. Sunday pay to be time and a quarter. (At present sunday pay is flat rate plus the booking on payment)

Year 2
4.0% or May 2011 RPI whichever is the greater.

The above has not been voted on by ASLEF members yet. ATW Company council has advised acceptance.

RPI was at 5.1% at the time of the pay talks.
Now as a ATW ASLEF driver i do NOT want to strike nor do i want these committed sundays as i want to see my young kids growing up and its the only day i can definatly spend time with them, now you can carry on calling us everything under the sun but as ATW drivers its out of our hands, its in the hands of the unions now, if we dont get the pay rise then so be it, we will still be the lowest paid mainline TOC in the UK.
I see alot of you saying why should we get paid what we do? Well ask Richard Branson!!!!!

 

[merlodlliw]

RPI was at 5.1% at the time of the pay talks.
Now as a ATW ASLEF driver i do NOT want to strike nor do i want these committed sundays as i want to see my young kids growing up and its the only day i can definatly spend time with them, now you can carry on calling us everything under the sun but as ATW drivers its out of our hands, its in the hands of the unions now, if we dont get the pay rise then so be it, we will still be the lowest paid mainline TOC in the UK.
I see alot of you saying why should we get paid what we do? Well ask Richard Branson!!!!!

Hello again, I note you point about your kids etc, but as a service industry,like all others Sunday working is a fact of life, as it is in industry. Good for you on your point about not wanting to strike, the other union of course is led politically where it appears striking is the first option, when it should be the last.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

RPI was at 5.1% at the time of the pay talks.
Now as a ATW ASLEF driver i do NOT want to strike nor do i want these committed sundays as i want to see my young kids growing up and its the only day i can definatly spend time with them, now you can carry on calling us everything under the sun but as ATW drivers its out of our hands, its in the hands of the unions now, if we dont get the pay rise then so be it, we will still be the lowest paid mainline TOC in the UK.
I see alot of you saying why should we get paid what we do? Well ask Richard Branson!!!!!

How many Sundays will drivers have to commit to? What does the commitment mean? Will you have to work it yourself or will you be able to arrange for someone else to cover it?

Personally, if I had to agree to work every other Sunday I wouldn;t think it was worth it, but if it was only a few a year I wouldn't mind too much...especially if it was possible to change the turn with someone else if something important came up.

 

[tirphil]

How many Sundays will drivers have to commit to? What does the commitment mean? Will you have to work it yourself or will you be able to arrange for someone else to cover it?

Personally, if I had to agree to work every other Sunday I wouldn;t think it was worth it, but if it was only a few a year I wouldn't mind too much...especially if it was possible to change the turn with someone else if something important came up.

Drivers will be able to arrange alternative cover for their sundays so that they may not have to work any. However that depends on how many drivers wish to work sundays at any given location. At my own location some drivers volunteer to work every sunday whereas others just do sundays that appear on their line of work (even though these shifts are not in the link if you know what i mean) I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of drivers that never work a sunday at my depot.

 

[313103]

Hello again, I note you point about your kids etc, but as a service industry,like all others Sunday working is a fact of life, as it is in industry. Good for you on your point about not wanting to strike, the other union of course is led politically where it appears striking is the first option, when it should be the last.

Bob

Dear Merlodlliw, despite what you (and others) may think striking is always the last option even within a union like mine, and despite what some on here may think of me being a loony lefty who only follows in Bob Crows footsteps, i have on more then one occasion convinced the union hierarchy that a strike is not worth pursuing. This is especially so when the staff either do not want to or have no appetite for such things. I will always remind them that when they don't get what they want it is not always the unions or even managements fault and they need to look in the mirror.

If i was to be honest no one likes too strike, but at times you don't have an option.

With regard to the issue of the other union, it is quite apparent that the leadership of ASLEF does not like the RMt in any capacity and will do anything that weakens the resolve of RMt. You only have to read their journal and not one month goes by where there is some sort of vitriol against the RMt either by its GS or by its members.

The RMt tends not to just have to deal with Management but also the other unions (although reations between the RMT and TSSA have improved greatly) relations with ASLEF are as for apart as ever. This dispute may have some of that, the RMT are probably trying to get away from the high horse of ASLEF who say 'we lead you follow'. Now where as ASLEF who were once regarded as a strong left wing union have urged its members to accept ATWs offer, RMTs train driver members were urged to reject the offer.

 

[9K43]

I still say bob Crow is the best TU leader we have ever seen.
Those who disagree should ban him from their trainset or unsafe heritage railway.
Send him an email, and am sure he will respond.

 

[Legzr1]

Are you a railway person too? Are you all bloody rude? Read some responses to your preposterous post before calling me stupid. But don't overstrain your braincell. You might need it, you know, to remember to push that button when that bell rings in the cab.

It seems what you lot need is a long cold swim in lake reality. It would be increadibly easy to completely automate train driving. The job really IS that simple.

A Boeing 747-400 or better yet an Airbus A380 is an immensly more complex machine than any train. Far from sitting on rails on the ground it operates at 40,000 feet in an environment where human beings can't exist. It operates in 3-dimensions. It operates in weather you just don't see on the ground. And it operates at almost 600mph. Sometimes it operates at a fine balance of speed of only a few knots (coffin corner) between aerodynamic stall in the thin air of high altitude, and mach stall due to parts of the wing going transonic. Then it has to descend in a precisely controlled manner, according to Air Traffic instructions, and locate, possibly in thick fog, 2 miles of tarmac to land on.

It has to align with that tarmac tenmiles out, regardless of cross winds and turbulence, and follow a precise, invisible 3 degree glideslope to the threshold. During the transition from high speed cruise to final approach is has to completely reconfigure the wings to produce more lift and more drag.

Then, at about 150mph all 600 tons has to smoothly transition from wingbourn lift to 'weight on the wheels'. Then it has to slow down and stop in the runway length remaining, and taxy to the terminal

All of that is about a million times more complex than driving a train.

Yet 95% of that operation can be automated. The only reason it's not is that if anything goes wrong you can't just turn off the power and brake to a halt like any ground vehicle can. You need a pilot to handle the situation.

A completely automatic train wouldn't need that human backstop.

So perhaps, if train drivers go on strike and pi55 people off, they might just find that a few electronic gizmos have replaced them. It would be soooo easy!

So it wasn't an act - you truely are stupid.

Or perhaps it's a very,very good act afterall?

No matter.


I'll respond when you have something intelligent to say.


As for being able to just brake and come to a standstill when OBE fails - that's correct - when equipment fails the train stands for days until someone qualified (an opinionated enthusiast perhaps?) can get out and replace the part. :roll:

 

[Gareth Marston]

Sunday services are probably at best 5-7% of the total run each week. Doing the math a driver might only to have to work 4/5 Sundays a year. With a 35 hr working week they'll be 2 days off between Monday & Saturday that week.

 

[Legzr1]

Anyway...

There's been a lot of tension between RMT and Aslef over the years but it seems to be coming to a head this past 6 months - does anyone actually know what it's really all about?

From my own experience (barring the odd arsehole representing either side) traincrew at the 'coalface' just get on with each other and get on with the job.

What goes wrong when you get up to EC level?

 

[CosherB]

I'll respond when you have something intelligent to say.

Don't bother. All you seem able do is throw insults because you can't answer my arguments. If you had sufficient intelectual capacity you'd answer the points instead.

 

[Greeny]

Anyway...

There's been a lot of tension between RMT and Aslef over the years but it seems to be coming to a head this past 6 months - does anyone actually know what it's really all about?

From my own experience (barring the odd arsehole representing either side) traincrew at the 'coalface' just get on with each other and get on with the job.

What goes wrong when you get up to EC level?

Hello Legzr1

What went wrong was Sid Weighel and Ray Buckton - they hated each others guts and used their membership more like hostages.

I once recall Weighel saying to Buckton (during one of their spats) "Youv'e got to bring 20000 Train Drivers out to stop the railway, I can do it woth 150 Signalmen".

In case 'you know who' has mistaken my motives in relating this, this is just a quote from the 1980's - it in not an invite to anti-Union nut cases to grab it as an excuse to have another go at Bob Crow.

G

 

[Legzr1]

Someone without experience or knowledge on a subject refuse to converse with me?

How will I sleep tonight?:roll:

Ironic that an 'enthuiast 'doesn't seem too enthuiastic in facts.

313103 and others have you well sussed - I think i'll follow their lead and ignore the troll.



Thanks Greeny - I've been in the 'game' since the late 80's and heard even then that it was all about bloody ego's !!

 

[Max]

313103 and others have you well sussed - I think i'll follow their lead and ignore the troll.

I'm not sure why you class him as a troll? I've read the whole thread and I feel he has made some decent points. It's likely that people can't stand up for what he is saying because they avoid these threads - why? Probably because any opinions that counter your own are shot down, whatever their level of merit. They do say that people who resort to personal insults probably do it because they can't actually think of any decent response. So why not prove this is not the case and respond appropriately to some of the points raised?

On a personal note, I feel that the deal on the table is pretty good in what are harsh economic times for everyone. Apart from Mr Crow of course, who thinks that twice the rate of inflation (RPI!) is the going rate. :roll:

 

[strange6]

I'm not sure why you class him as a troll? I've read the whole thread and I feel he has made some decent points. It's likely that people can't stand up for what he is saying because they avoid these threads - why? Probably because any opinions that counter your own are shot down, whatever their level of merit. They do say that people who resort to personal insults probably do it because they can't actually think of any decent response. So why not prove this is not the case and respond appropriately to some of the points raised?

On a personal note, I feel that the deal on the table is pretty good in what are harsh economic times for everyone. Apart from Mr Crow of course, who thinks that twice the rate of inflation (RPI!) is the going rate. :roll:

Could not have put that better myself! Thanks for that. people have their own opinions about things and I always respect them no matter how they go against my own opinions. If people wouldn't take things so personally, maybe we would have a better society! No matter, I love you all on this forum! Long may it continue!
KJ

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm not sure why you class him as a troll? I've read the whole thread and I feel he has made some decent points. It's likely that people can't stand up for what he is saying because they avoid these threads - why? Probably because any opinions that counter your own are shot down, whatever their level of merit. They do say that people who resort to personal insults probably do it because they can't actually think of any decent response. So why not prove this is not the case and respond appropriately to some of the points raised?

On a personal note, I feel that the deal on the table is pretty good in what are harsh economic times for everyone. Apart from Mr Crow of course, who thinks that twice the rate of inflation (RPI!) is the going rate. :roll:

I don't see Captain as a troll, but perhaps anti union, which as an aside is okay with me. I feel however, that it isn't anybodys business what offer is on the table, apart from the ATW staff who will decide on the merits of the deal and act accordingly. Comment away, but you can be sure none of them could care less what anyone on here thinks about it anyway!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Could not have put that better myself! Thanks for that. people have their own opinions about things and I always respect them no matter how they go against my own opinions. If people wouldn't take things so personally, maybe we would have a better society! No matter, I love you all on this forum! Long may it continue!
KJ

sometimes strange its not just about what is said, its also how its worded, i do have respect for anyones opinion but if someone talks about myself or my colleagues like they have done previously then obviously it will provoke a reaction

 

[strange6]

Exactly! and I refer you to comment 58 which, in all fairness to 'Captain', was not worded towards him very well was it? It works both ways you know!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Exactly! and I refer you to comment 58 which, in all fairness to 'Captain', was not worded towards him very well was it? It works both ways you know!

but in fairness it was the way he said things that got alot of people wound up and insulted (including me)

 

[strange6]

but in fairness it was the way he said things that got alot of people wound up and insulted (including me)

Fair do's, Northern; I see your point. If only everybody could be as diplomatic as me