Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Watershed]

Are they obliged to do so if the cancellation was implemented by 10 p.m. the day before?

Yes. The only right which is even arguably affected is that to Delay Repay. The right to compensation under PRO minima and to alternative transport or accommodation are not dependent on the make-believe "Timetable of the Day".

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It doesn't help that they're still running the post-Covid hourly service (Lime Street-New Street) and still often put 4 carriages on. The 09:07 is always 4 carriages on a Saturday. Got the 10:07 yesterday and that was 4 carriages and therefore packed out, especially nearer Birmingham with a big Cricket match at Edgbaston and an event at the NEC.

There's a chronic shortage of capacity through the network even when the trains do run. The 11 car Avanti's at least provide a decent capacity, when the trains actually run. It only takes a cancellation or two though to cause crush loaded trains.

I'm sure we've had this exact discussion previously. There are several trains that are 4 cars, but they are very few. I think 2 morning and 1 late evening that are due to be 4 cars. Capacity is only lower than pre-covid by 3 trains per day as the rest are 1x 8 car rather than 2x 4 car per hour.

This only affects the Crewe to Lime St section as there are plenty of alternatives between New St to Stafford/Crewe

 

[Wolfie]

They are doing exactly what they are required to do under their contracts. I'm sure they'd be willing to staff it 24 hours - in exchange for a "suitable" fee, which the DfT is extremely unlikely to agree to.

There isn't enough spare stabling capacity elsewhere to boycott it, let alone the disruption it would cause with drivers having to learn new depots overnight and needing to be taxied further afield. It's a complete non-starter; even suggesting it makes it clear that you have no idea how these sorts of negotiations work.

Not to mention that Alstom don't only provide stabling but also maintenance although l'm not exactly sure what is done where.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2022 ==

Threatening to take your business elsewhere, regardless whether you're actually able to take your business elsewhere or not, is a negotiatiating tactic used in many industries including on the railway.

Good luck on threatening the OEM, whose IPR you necessarily require access to, with taking your business elsewhere.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The parent group here doesn’t have much to do with influencing the emerging situation - it’s the current train crew position (including rest day working), traction and route knowledge and what the DfT are prepared to sign off that is driving all this.

If you lose drivers, recruitment has to be signed off, then the new recruits have to join the queue for training, the extent of which has to be signed off, then there is the rest day situation and then there is more COVID to disrupt and slow everything down again.

TPE have put proposals forward to rectify what should never have happened in the first place but the DfT are not signing the industry any blank cheques anymore and it’s crippling any effort to improve matters. Avanti can’t replace the Euston drivers overnight and the DfT isn’t keen to see any more targeted service reductions to match the available resources. So no decisions get made and it all drags on.

If this was purely left up to the operators, they would have put the money in by now to sort out this mess. But you are not allowed to do that anymore. Appalling.

Are the DfT telling Avanti they cannot implement an emergency timetable?

 

[alistairlees]

This thread makes for depressing reading. Customers / passengers could really not give a ****** **** about the reasons for this. They will just go elsewhere. Only a combination of government and ineptitude could create this absence of customer focus and abundance of buck-passing. I appreciate that many people will be trying their best in very difficult circumstances; it is not the fault of those on the ground or in operational roles, of course.

 

[gazzaa2]

I'm sure we've had this exact discussion previously. There are several trains that are 4 cars, but they are very few. I think 2 morning and 1 late evening that are due to be 4 cars. Capacity is only lower than pre-covid by 3 trains per day as the rest are 1x 8 car rather than 2x 4 car per hour.

This only affects the Crewe to Lime St section as there are plenty of alternatives between New St to Stafford/Crewe

We have. I use it from the Lime Street to Crewe section onto Birmingham and that 09:07 is always 4 cars when I get it on a Saturday. I hoped after the May timetable it'd change but it hasn't. To be fair the returns tend to be 8 cars on the way back. Last week the 09: 07 was even busier because the Avanti trains around it were cancelled and it was 4 cars, so I got the 10:07 instead yesterday (knowing Avanti had cancelled the 08:47 to Euston again) and that was 4 cars. If they're going to run this reduced service then they need the Saturday morning services to be 8 cars, connecting major cities, as that's where the capacity is needed. Annoyingly they don't state the number of carriages for this TOC on real train times, as i'd check in advance which train to get.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2022 ==

It's no different now to how it's been for last few months. LNWR services out of Lime St and Euston are constantly rammed regardless of the lack of Avanti services, whether there is football or not. It was unmanageable in April/May and it will be the same in September/October

Sundays have been a write off for the last few months on Avanti. The issue now is Saturdays are now as bad for cancellations. You'd have some cancellations here and there for Avanti but now it's become like their Sunday service on Saturdays as well.

 

[childwallblues]

LNER are running 1TPH less out of Kings Cross than they'd planned for after the now delayed recast. Avanti are running 3TPH less out of Euston than their pre covid timetable never mind what their timetable would have been after any now delayed recasts. So under that princple Avanti should be doing better than LNER for crew not worse.


Southeastern are in many areas running what they ran pre covid.


TPE are running around 50% of their pre covid timetable on both the Newcastle - Manchester/Liverpool and Scotland - Manchester routes, whilst most Scarborough services are only running as shuttles to/from York, and TPE are still suffering mass cancellations. Avanti are running 2/3 of their pre covid timetable to Manchester, 2/3 of their pre covid timetable to Birmingham, and 75% of their pre covid timetable north of Preston, and again that service pattern is suffering mass cancellations.


You only have to take a look at a large number of what-were franchises; West Coast, East Coast, South Western, East Midlands and ScotRail to name a few, to see drastic changes in service quality very quickly after a change of ownership without any (or with minimal) changes to the timetables.


EMR stable their units for the early and late Liverpool services in Nottingham. Whilst I'm not suggesting everything that uses Edge Hill go as far afield as that as an alternative, it shows that alternatives are available and they don't neccessarily have to be in Liverpool itself.

Contracts often have break clauses and can in the vast majority of cases be terminated early under set circumstances. Not providing the contracted number of working units for service each day, which is what the result of units being stuck at Edge Hill is, will be in breach of the contract unless the contract is exceptionally poorly written.

Avanti West Coast and TPE are the only TOCs which stable at Edge Hill. EMR at Nottingham, LNWR at Crewe, TfW at Chester. Northern have a depot at Allerton.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Are the DfT telling Avanti they cannot implement an emergency timetable?

You have to agree your (regular) timetable reductions with them and they can be a bit reluctant, which forces you into late STP changes when you get short. I can’t get into the specifics with Avanti, unfortunately.

 

[Starmill]

Are the DfT telling Avanti they cannot implement an emergency timetable?

They're resisting any suggestions of reducing the timetable at most operators, but certainly Avanti West Coast and TransPennine Express, who are both chronically under-resourced for the current WTT. Certainly in neither case is what's being advertised actually achievable. No doubt this is driven primarily by the desire to avoid poor press.

 

[gazzaa2]

How long would an emergency timetable realistically last/be needed for though? This doesn't seem like a temporary problem, we could be talking years, as we already are with some of the Covid timetables and Avanti themselves are still running a reduced service from pre-lockdowns two and a half years ago. Added to the prospect of regular strikes on top and a government determined to cut the railways.

Cities like Liverpool and Glasgow only get one train an hour to/from London as it is which is inadequate (Liverpool were promised a 2nd train an hour by Avanti when they took over). The idea of having that reduced to every 2 or 3 hours for god knows how long (and those trains won't be any longer) is unacceptable. But so is the current situation.

To make matters worse Trans Pennine is practically unusable itself, so the idea of easily crossing the Pennines to get the LNER isn't practical either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't matter how long it's needed for. The advertised service needs to be reliable.

 

[Moonshot]

How long would an emergency timetable realistically last/be needed for though? This doesn't seem like a temporary problem, we could be talking years, as we already are with some of the Covid timetables and Avanti themselves are still running a reduced service from pre-lockdowns two and a half years ago. Added to the prospect of regular strikes on top and a government determined to cut the railways.

Cities like Liverpool and Glasgow only get one train an hour to/from London as it is which is inadequate (Liverpool were promised a 2nd train an hour by Avanti when they took over). The idea of having that reduced to every 2 or 3 hours for god knows how long (and those trains won't be any longer) is unacceptable. But so is the current situation.

To make matters worse Trans Pennine is practically unusable itself, so the idea of easily crossing the Pennines to get the LNER isn't practical either.

I'm afraid that is the reality. Not likely to be rectified anytime soon. Just wait until football season starts!!

 

[Wolfie]

I am no fan whatsoever of First Group but is notable that those trying to argue that there is a systemic issue which is their responsibility when citing Avanti West Coast and TPE very carefully ignore GWR.

 

[Starmill]

It doesn't matter how long it's needed for. The advertised service needs to be reliable.

Unless there's a major change of policy or a change of government in the near future, they would essentially be permanent cuts, which may be reviewed in 3 - 5 years. That is to say many services would go the way of the through Birmingham - Glasgow, Bristol - Manchester and Reading - Newcastle services. Reduced to a handful per week and then maybe returned at some unknown future time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless there's a major change of policy or a change of government in the near future, they would essentially be permanent cuts, which may be reviewed in 3 - 5 years. That is to say many services would go the way of the through Birmingham - Glasgow, Bristol - Manchester and Reading - Newcastle services. Reduced to a handful per week and then maybe returned at some unknown future time.

If necessary, that should happen. It is better to cut than operate unreliably.

 

[Starmill]

If necessary, that should happen. It is better to cut than operate unreliably.

I think that I would agree that, on balance, that there's an overriding customer service imperative to be honest about what you can realistically provide before people pay for something.

 

[Watershed]

I think that I would agree that, on balance, that there's an overriding customer service imperative to be honest about what you can realistically provide before people pay for something.

Indeed. And a timetable that limited would put quite a lot of people off travelling and hence reduce revenue. The DfT would soon start to realise that their cost-cutting mania actually has consequences!

At the moment the railway is burning through a lot of goodwill through the terrible service being provided to customers, by advertising one thing and hugely underdelivering. Goodwill is something that isn't easily measured on a balance sheet and so is sadly doesn't really count as far as the DfT are concerned; as far as they're concerned, they can just fob passengers off with a little bit of compensation (if anything).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that I would agree that, on balance, that there's an overriding customer service imperative to be honest about what you can realistically provide before people pay for something.

Yes, agreed. You can also plan so that that restricted service is more useful to passengers - if it is really going to be years, you can rediagram to e.g. leave the gap in Liverpool-London services at a quiet time (e.g. middle of the daytime on weekdays) rather than when it is busy.

An honest, feasible timetable is one of the most important things there can be on a railway, only second to safety. It is basically the definition of what is being sold.

 

[norbitonflyer]

My son was travelling to Coventry for work on Saturday, and found three trains in a row cancelled. Eventually got an LNWR service to Rugby on the assurance of a WMR connection there, which also got cancelled and so he ended up getting an Uber from Rugby to Coventry. Still arrived half an hour late, and having already spent more than he was going to be paid.
And his train back to Euston was half an hour late, due to an unexplained delay at Birmingham (not explained to anyone wiating down the line at Coventry anyway)

He's going to buy a car.

 

[SandsofEss]

I’m watching this thread with trepidation. I’m due to take my 6yo son from London to Glasgow for a weekend, travelling up on Friday 29th and back on Sunday 31st July.

A quick look at Raildar data for the past three months for the specific trains we’re booked on shows 18% of the outbound and 15% of the return workings have been cancelled.

Ironically, we’ll be travelling on a pair of complimentary first class returns issued after a July 2021 Avanti journey that didn’t go to plan.

I know this means we won’t be entitled to any Delay Repay, but I assume (hope) it won’t reduce AWC’s liability to get us home by hook or by crook in the event of disruption?

 

[Watershed]

I know this means we won’t be entitled to any Delay Repay, but I assume (hope) it won’t reduce AWC’s liability to get us home by hook or by crook in the event of disruption?

It won't - it doesn't matter what kind of ticket you have, those rights remain unchanged. It's just the right to compensation that's obviously nullified when you hold a free ticket.

 

[Statto]

Taking a quick look, & 4 out of the last 5 Euston - Liverpool services were cancelled on Saturday, & that includes the last train which was the 20.12, if you missed the 16.07, only the 19.07 ran, few trains in a row to Manchester were cancelled too.

I got caught out by the 06.44 Liverpool - Euston cancellation, but the next one departed 07.16, staff in the ticket office, were saying tickets booked for the 06.44 were ok to be used on the 07.16, but once i was onboard the 07.16, the guard said over the tannoy, tickets weren't valid on the 07.16, & had to get the 07.44 as the 07.16 was fully booked as it called additionally at Lichfield & Tamworth.

Fortunately i was only going to Stafford, & had an off peak return, mixed with a West Midlands day ranger, i could have caught the 07.04 LNWR to Stafford instead, but i couldn't be bothered, didn't make much difference in making the connecting train i intended to catch at Stafford.

 

[DanNCL]

I am no fan whatsoever of First Group but is notable that those trying to argue that there is a systemic issue which is their responsibility when citing Avanti West Coast and TPE very carefully ignore GWR.

GWR seem to be the exception when it comes to First. TPE, Avanti and SWR are all awful. First Capital Connect wasn’t exactly great either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR seem to be the exception when it comes to First. TPE, Avanti and SWR are all awful. First Capital Connect wasn’t exactly great either.

GWR is a real oddity. FGW wasn't particularly good (it always felt totally unchanged from BR but just painted purple), but it does seem to have improved a lot over the years. I think much of the disquiet was lack of capacity, and the coming of the 80x and electrification have allowed an increase in capacity to remove much of that annoyance.

I suspect the reason it's well managed is that Mark Hopwood knows his stuff and has been there a very long time (20+ years?) He's also a career railwayman. He isn't lauded as much as the likes of Adrian Shooter but does seem to have a good reputation.

TPE on the other hand has had a "personality problem" for a very long time - almost an institutional arrogance. The solution of the capacity issue with the 80x helped hide that, but perhaps it's still there.

And Avanti are just rubbish and have been since day 1 - just totally lackadaisical in everything they do.

 

[peter166]

Taking a quick look, & 4 out of the last 5 Euston - Liverpool services were cancelled on Saturday, & that includes the last train which was the 20.12, if you missed the 16.07, only the 19.07 ran, few trains in a row to Manchester were cancelled too.

I got caught out by the 06.44 Liverpool - Euston cancellation, but the next one departed 07.16, staff in the ticket office, were saying tickets booked for the 06.44 were ok to be used on the 07.16, but once i was onboard the 07.16, the guard said over the tannoy, tickets weren't valid on the 07.16, & had to get the 07.44 as the 07.16 was fully booked as it called additionally at Lichfield & Tamworth.

Fortunately i was only going to Stafford, & had an off peak return, mixed with a West Midlands day ranger, i could have caught the 07.04 LNWR to Stafford instead, but i couldn't be bothered, didn't make much difference in making the connecting train i intended to catch at Stafford.

Surely if the 0644 was cancelled you had every right to travel on the next train which was the 0716. The guard/ train manager was wrong !
Anyone with a reservation for the 0644 or not would be able to travel on the 0716 ?

 

[Carlisle]

And Avanti are just rubbish and have been since day 1 - just totally lackadaisical in everything they do.

Id suspect that’s because those at the top probably realise its impossible for a multitude of reasons for any new TOC to garner customer & staff loyalty in the way Virgin & GNER did when they entered the scene without spending huge sums .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Id suspect that’s because those at the top probably realise its impossible for a multitude of reasons for any new TOC to garner customer & staff loyalty in the way Virgin & GNER did when they entered the scene.

LNER seem to have managed it. I'm not sure their (state) ownership has a lot to do with it - it's about treating people well and quality marketing, neither of which, it seems, Avanti has done.

Avanti is classic FirstGroup - good ideas done badly. The Italian branding for instance had lots of possibilities - imagine if it all looked more like Italo or Le Frecce. Imagine if the premium First Class served meals from the best Italian chefs with Italy's finest wines, or hand-stitched Italian leather seats in 1st, or that they got Pininfarina in to style the refurbishment and livery (no joke, SBB actually do). They could even have done a decent Standard buffet offering - one thing about pasta dishes is that they microwave well, and nobody would have objected if they'd stocked up with Birra Moretti. It had loads of potential - they just utterly flopped it. It's disappointing beyond belief.

 

[Watershed]

Taking a quick look, & 4 out of the last 5 Euston - Liverpool services were cancelled on Saturday, & that includes the last train which was the 20.12, if you missed the 16.07, only the 19.07 ran, few trains in a row to Manchester were cancelled too.

I got caught out by the 06.44 Liverpool - Euston cancellation, but the next one departed 07.16, staff in the ticket office, were saying tickets booked for the 06.44 were ok to be used on the 07.16, but once i was onboard the 07.16, the guard said over the tannoy, tickets weren't valid on the 07.16, & had to get the 07.44 as the 07.16 was fully booked as it called additionally at Lichfield & Tamworth.

Fortunately i was only going to Stafford, & had an off peak return, mixed with a West Midlands day ranger, i could have caught the 07.04 LNWR to Stafford instead, but i couldn't be bothered, didn't make much difference in making the connecting train i intended to catch at Stafford.

Surely if the 0644 was cancelled you had every right to travel on the next train which was the 0716. The guard/ train manager was wrong !
Anyone with a reservation for the 0644 or not would be able to travel on the 0716 ?

Absolutely. The TM was bang out of order with that comment. If you had booked to travel on the 06:44 you're automatically entitled to travel on the next available service of the same TOC - in this case the 07:16. It would only be more contentious if there were different TOCs involved.

There's obviously no guarantee of a seat if you do choose to go for the next available service without making a new reservation, but nobody can stop you from standing if push comes to shove.

 

[londonmidland]

20:15 Manchester Piccadilly to Euston cancelled due to a points failure with a late start expected for the 21:15 (last service to Euston). Pretty poor frequency for a weekday service.

17:43 Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham is running 82 late and is now terminating at Preston vice Glasgow. Not a good day for Avanti.

 

[philosopher]

GWR is a real oddity. FGW wasn't particularly good (it always felt totally unchanged from BR but just painted purple), but it does seem to have improved a lot over the years. I think much of the disquiet was lack of capacity, and the coming of the 80x and electrification have allowed an increase in capacity to remove much of that annoyance.

I suspect the reason it's well managed is that Mark Hopwood knows his stuff and has been there a very long time (20+ years?) He's also a career railwayman. He isn't lauded as much as the likes of Adrian Shooter but does seem to have a good reputation.

TPE on the other hand has had a "personality problem" for a very long time - almost an institutional arrogance. The solution of the capacity issue with the 80x helped hide that, but perhaps it's still there.

And Avanti are just rubbish and have been since day 1 - just totally lackadaisical in everything they do.

Is there any risk that Avanti will be stripped of their franchise if things do not improve?