387s Cardiff - London

[Fyldeboy]

Being stuck in West Wales, I have zero experience of class 387. I am drawn to a Cardiff -Padd service on 19 July @ 9:51

RTT says this Starts as Class 80x on electric, changes en route! I'm guessing that refers to pathing, not the actual train as a little research suggests this is a 387.

How does this differ from 80x? Standard class only, obviously - but is there any form of catering (<2 hrs so not essential), as essentially commuter stock, how do they compare comfort wise with 80x? Does doors at 2/3 affect noise or comfort? Any particular likes / dislikes?

 

[MaidaVale]

The 387s and the 80x stock differ heavily, Both units are relatively quiet trains anyway, although the vestibule door arrangement does help to dampen the noise. A common complaint on the 80x units is related to the ride quality, with a few people claiming they're fairly shaky, which I can somewhat agree with compared to say the 390, Although compared to commuter stock such as the electrostars, it tends to be a lot better ride quality, particularly at high speeds (if you want bad ride quality for a long distance train, Look no further than a 175/180!). I think a lot of the difference in noise polution would be shown during boarding and alighting, as with the 387s having the doors within the main carriage, the door sounds and the sound of people boarding and alighting, along with the general outside noise will be very audible during a station stop, wheras on an 80x most of this isn't an issue.

The seats on the 800s are another common complaint, Although again I beleive this to some extent when compared to other long-distance units like Voyagers and Pendos. Comparitive to the 387s, the 800 seats win by a long shot, and so do the tables. Catering is also available on most IET services I've been on (I can't speak for the Cardiff ones, I've never travelled into South Wales on one), Whereas there is no catering (of any sort, that I know of) available on 387s, and the spread of toilets and luggage storage is far superior on the 80x.

 

[100andthirty]

I made the mistake of joining a class 387 train from London to Cardiff back in May. The ride was appalling and the seats were awful. It was the only time I've ever been delighted to be chucked off a train before my destination (terminated at Didcot, no guard). The following IET was nothing to be proud of compared with my regular rides (classes 390 and 350) but infinitely better than the class 387.

 

[Techniquest]

I don't think I've suffered some of these problems when I did 387s between Didcot and Bristol Parkway last year. Yes it is drastically different to an IET, but I didn't have ride quality issues. If I was going the whole way, I think I'd want an IET to be honest because I'd be more focused on other things. Purely as an enthusiast though, for the novelty factor and sheer fun, I'd be satisfied with a 387. If I was wanting to enjoy a relaxing journey, with a non-enthusiast, I'd probably aim for something else. One benefit for me would be not having to hook my cycle up on the IET hooks, which can take some effort!

In short, find yourself a table seat in the motor coach, take some food and drink with me and settle in for something a bit more novel than an IET!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In short, find yourself a table seat in the motor coach, take some food and drink with me and settle in for something a bit more novel than an IET!

Look forward to “BANG!” every five minutes if you’re under the pantograph.

 

[MCR247]

Look forward to “BANG!” every five minutes if you’re under the pantograph.

The pantograph vehicle on electrostars is a trailer

 

[physics34]

Electrostars notorious for bad ride over points as they swing and bounce. The dampers dont really do their job very well. Add that to hard seats and, hey presto! As ive ranted many times over the years, just a softer thicker sprung seat cushion would do them a world of good.

 

[D365]

The pantograph vehicle on electrostars is a trailer

?

@TT-ONR-NRN is pointing out that the VCB (Vacuum Circuit Breaker) is quite noticeable.

 

[Magdalia]

Look forward to “BANG!” every five minutes if you’re under the pantograph.

This doesn't happen literally every 5 minutes. It happens going in and out of neutral sections. If you want to know the location of neutral sections, it is very educational.

Electrostars notorious for bad ride over points as they swing and bounce. The dampers dont really do their job very well. Add that to hard seats and, hey presto! As ive ranted many times over the years, just a softer thicker sprung seat cushion would do them a world of good.

The trick here is to sit in the central saloon, between the two sets of doors. This gives a much better ride than sitting over a bogie in one of the end saloons.

 

[yorkie]

RTT says this Starts as Class 80x on electric, changes en route! I'm guessing that refers to pathing, not the actual train as a little research suggests this is a 387.

Open data sites, such as Realtimetrains, are just showing a timing load; as you say this is related to pathing and is not a train allocation or anything like that. In this case the timing load changes en route. See this post:

I'm not familiar with the inner workings of TPS, but each train will have two timing loads, one of which may be hidden from the user.

In Trainplan, which was used before TPS, both of these timing loads were visible to planners and could be independently altered if required.

The Trainplan Timing Load was used to calculate Sectional Running Times (SRT's) appropriate to the trains being planned. Additionally, there was a TSDB Timing Load, which was a much more simplified and limited value. It is the latter timing load that appears in the CIF.

A Trainplan Timing Load would automatically match to a TSDB Timing Load, but it was possible to subsequently alter the TSDB Timing Load to a different value. This was very useful if, for example, running trains over routes they don't normally work, where the relevant Trainplan Timing Load was not populated with SRT's. Other uses include changing traction type, if being replaced by something that can achieve the SRT's.

Not all tools in Train Planners' armoury are visible to end users, as they don't make it into the CIF. Three types of timing allowance are visible in TRUST and online systems - engineering, pathing and performance, but a fourth, adjustment allowance, isn't. This is a vital tool for planners, but is invisible to anybody without access to planning software. It is used to extend or reduce SRT's where required, such as differential speed junctions or when the timing load is not wholly appropriate to the train being timed. Despite what many people assume, timings are not held in the planning software for all trains over all routes. In fact, when it comes to charters and other one-off movements, it is highly unlikely that any SRT's exist in the software for that specific train. A train shown as timed to a maximum speed of 75mph or 95mph may not actually have been timed as such, that is just what the CIF outputs. Changes of Timing Load can also be made en-route.

I am pleased to see these officially approved open online systems, but do feel that many of the questions arising are simply due to people over-analysing things that don't really need to be analysed!

I hope this gives a better understanding of some of the issues raised in this thread and in some others.

 

[Envoy]

The seats in the 387’s are like ironing boards. Top speed is only 110mph. They should not be used as Inter City trains.

 

[Kyle2]

387's run to Cardiff now? I thought all Cardiff to London trains were IET's?

 

[Andy Pacer]

387's run to Cardiff now? I thought all Cardiff to London trains were IET's?

I believe there are now a small number of instances, presumably since the May timetable change?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

They’ve been running for over a year now. It started when the 80x cracking fiasco began.

 

[Andy Pacer]

They’ve been running for over a year now. It started when the 80x cracking fiasco began.

When did they become booked allocation?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I believe they entered the LTP (long term plan) timetable from December 2021.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I believe they entered the LTP (long term plan) timetable from December 2021.

Thanks for that, makes sense.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Electrostars notorious for bad ride over points as they swing and bounce. The dampers dont really do their job very well. Add that to hard seats and, hey presto! As ive ranted many times over the years, just a softer thicker sprung seat cushion would do them a world of good.

Passing through Foxton on the GN Kings Lynn/Ely to Kings Cross services in the Up direction is an interesting experience! It is not a good idea to be using the toilet here or when these trains cross US to UF at Hitchin South, particularly for the men.

 

[Mikey C]

I wasn't impressed by the ride quality of 387s on a recent trip to Cambridge. Seemed a lot jerkier than older Electrostars or Turbostars

 

[penguin8967]

I believe there are now a small number of instances, presumably since the May timetable change?

Correct, one on a weekday and one on a Saturday.

Weekdays is 07:12 off Paddington (09:51 return), Saturdays are 12:13 (14:41 return).

They aren't running this to Cardiff this week due to the ongoing Severn tunnel closure and diverts via Gloucester - a few are still running to Bristol Pkwy at different times though.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Correct, one on a weekday and one on a Saturday.

Weekdays is 07:12 off Paddington (09:51 return), Saturdays are 12:13 (14:41 return).

They aren't running this to Cardiff this week due to the ongoing Severn tunnel closure and diverts via Gloucester - a few are still running to Bristol Pkwy at different times though.

Thanks for the clarification, I recall from being around there on a 3 day Thames Rover in March that they were evident, but by no means the norm.

 

[MCR247]

?

@TT-ONR-NRN is pointing out that the VCB (Vacuum Circuit Breaker) is quite noticeable.

The post he quoted advised the poster to sit in a motor coach so I was pointing out he wouldn’t be below the pantograph on a 387 whilst in a motor coach…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The post he quoted advised the poster to sit in a motor coach so I was pointing out he wouldn’t be below the pantograph on a 387 whilst in a motor coach…

Could be a nice journey after all then

 

[D365]

The post he quoted advised the poster to sit in a motor coach so I was pointing out he wouldn’t be below the pantograph on a 387 whilst in a motor coach…

Ah; I didn’t read @Techniquest’s post

As you say, no issue with VCB noise on an Electrostar motor coach.

 

[Bikeman78]

Being stuck in West Wales, I have zero experience of class 387. I am drawn to a Cardiff -Padd service on 19 July @ 9:51

RTT says this Starts as Class 80x on electric, changes en route! I'm guessing that refers to pathing, not the actual train as a little research suggests this is a 387.

How does this differ from 80x? Standard class only, obviously - but is there any form of catering (<2 hrs so not essential), as essentially commuter stock, how do they compare comfort wise with 80x? Does doors at 2/3 affect noise or comfort? Any particular likes / dislikes?

I've been on the 387s a few times. No worse than an 800 really. No difference in journey times either. The 0951 is actually one minute faster to Paddington than the 0918/1018, despite the extra stop at Didcot.

 

[penguin8967]

I've been on the 387s a few times. No worse than an 800 really. No difference in journey times either. The 0951 is actually one minute faster to Paddington than the 0918/1018, despite the extra stop at Didcot.

Presumably because 387s have much shorter dwell times than IETs, often only a minute at stations compared to 2-3 for an IET.

 

[Towers]

I like the 387s. One particular advantage is their saloon ambience, which gives a welcome relief from the delights of relentlessly howling aircon that seems to be a popular design feature of some modern traction. It becomes really quite tedious on long journeys, particularly when the racket from the A/C kit is supplemented by the outside air blowing a gale through the roof vents with associated sound effects. Boarding a train and sitting in a near-silent carriage is an absolute joy, and something which seems to have largely vanished from the intercity network with the end of the HST era.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I like the 387s. One particular advantage is their saloon ambience, which gives a welcome relief from the delights of relentlessly howling aircon that seems to be a popular design feature of some modern traction. It becomes really quite tedious on long journeys, particularly when the racket from the A/C kit is supplemented by the outside air blowing a gale through the roof vents with associated sound effects. Boarding a train and sitting in a near-silent carriage is an absolute joy, and something which seems to have largely vanished from the intercity network with the end of the HST era.

I won’t get into an off-topic debate here, but if you think the deafening slams of doors, the infuriating bang of the over sensitive vestibule doors and the endless creaking made the HST a “near-silent carriage,” you’re either wrong or don’t notice issues if its on trains you prefer

 

[Steddenm]

Guard on the PAD-BPW has just said that the 387s from December will be used on ALL Cardiff-London services and the IETs only going to Swansea.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Guard on the PAD-BPW has just said that the 387s from December will be used on ALL Cardiff-London services and the IETs only going to Swansea.

Although this is clearly a reduction in comfort for passengers, this would allow a fleet cascade within GWR and ultimately allow HSTs to be pushed out.