387s Cardiff - London

[Wivenswold]

The only decent ride I've had on an Electrostar was in a Class 379. It'll make the blood of our friends in South Wales boil if they knew 30 far better trains were collecting dust in sidings around East Anglia because DfT won't pay the leasing costs of trains they happily claimed credit for back in 2011.

 

[43096]

Although this is clearly a reduction in comfort for passengers, this would allow a fleet cascade within GWR and ultimately allow HSTs to be pushed out.

The HSTs that have just had their lease extended to 2025...

 

[Agent_Squash]

Guard on the PAD-BPW has just said that the 387s from December will be used on ALL Cardiff-London services and the IETs only going to Swansea.

Amazing if true. To think they were only meant to be crowd busters…

 

[Towers]

I won’t get into an off-topic debate here, but if you think the deafening slams of doors, the infuriating bang of the over sensitive vestibule doors and the endless creaking made the HST a “near-silent carriage,” you’re either wrong or don’t notice issues if its on trains you prefer

Agreed, but all of the above still managed to be significantly less intrusive than the unending A/C roar of some current stock!

If CDF-PAD is indeed going full 387, the only observation I'd make is the need to provide unmistakably clear info regarding the provision of on board facilities on those services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Amazing if true. To think they were only meant to be crowd busters…

I don’t see how it can be true. They don’t have enough electrostars - unless the thirty EMUs they tendered for (presumably 379s) arrive and run as well as the 387s rather than instead of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2022 ==

Agreed, but all of the above still managed to be significantly less intrusive than the unending A/C roar of some current stock!

If CDF-PAD is indeed going full 387, the only observation I'd make is the need to provide unmistakably clear info regarding the provision of on board facilities on those services.

I don’t see why they can’t have trolleys on 387s. They may not have a galley but neither do 159s/450s/377s/379s etc, and they used trolleys for years until withdrawal of catering.

 

[Dr Day]

Clearly the First Class business market isn't what it was pre-Covid, and the Cardiff is more of a 'stopper' than the Swansea but would probably create a few customer complaints not having First for many flows (eg London-Swindon) which historically have had the option on (virtually) every train.

 

[Class 466]

Amazing if true. To think they were only meant to be crowd busters…

Southeastern use High Capacity 375/9s on 100 mile journeys day in, day out on journeys way over the 2 hours it takes to go from Cardiff to Paddington. 387s are arguably better than those, so don't see the issue with it at all. Make use of EMUs on entirely electrified routes meaning the Bi-Modes can do more bi-mode/diesel work.

 

[DailyCommuter]

It'll be interesting to understand how sufficient 387s are to be freed up for the Cardiff services, if this is correct, when I thought the fleet was already stretched running the additional Newbury services to release the IETs.

Even if the 379s come to GWR wasn't that to free up 387s for GN / Southern?

 

[swt_passenger]

It'll be interesting to understand how sufficient 387s are to be freed up for the Cardiff services, if this is correct, when I thought the fleet was already stretched running the additional Newbury services to release the IETs.

Even if the 379s come to GWR wasn't that to free up 387s for GN / Southern?

It always seemed clear from the tender stuff the possibility of the 379s was as an alternative, not extras. This latest story about Cardiff is unbelievable IMHO.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Southeastern use High Capacity 375/9s on 100 mile journeys day in, day out on journeys way over the 2 hours it takes to go from Cardiff to Paddington. 387s are arguably better than those, so don't see the issue with it at all. Make use of EMUs on entirely electrified routes meaning the Bi-Modes can do more bi-mode/diesel work.

Southeastern operate a commuter service. GWR is allegedly proposing to downgrade from Intercity stock to commuter stock for a route between two capital cities.

There’s slightly more prestige to the service than trundling round Kent (which also happens to have a high speed line which is why those 375s take so long)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Guard on the PAD-BPW has just said that the 387s from December will be used on ALL Cardiff-London services and the IETs only going to Swansea.

That’s certainly news to the planning teams….

 

[paul1609]

Clearly the First Class business market isn't what it was pre-Covid, and the Cardiff is more of a 'stopper' than the Swansea but would probably create a few customer complaints not having First for many flows (eg London-Swindon) which historically have had the option on (virtually) every train.

Surely to provide first class you just need to put some paper antimacassar on the seats and stickers on the windows like its been in the southeast for the best part of 20 years? Its called levelling up (or down).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely to provide first class you just need to put some paper antimacassar on the seats and stickers on the windows like its been in the southeast for the best part of 20 years? Its called levelling up (or down).

I don’t think that would be acceptable when they’d be operating the same services as 800s.

While it happens on TSGN/SE, it’s one consistent product - you know what you’re getting - a cloth and a quieter carriage. In GWR, you could buy a ticket from Paddington to Newport or something, and unless you’re an enthusiast who happens to know the 800 workings, it’d be pot luck between a large reclining IET seat with cushion, high speed Wi-Fi and 2+1 seating plus refreshments, or 2+2 ironing board seats identical to those in Standard on the train and narrower than even the standard class seats on the IETs.

At least with the current situation of First Class on IETs only, you know you’re getting a step up from 2nd (regardless of your opinion on the First Class Sophia) when you purchase First Class tickets.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don’t think that would be acceptable when they’d be operating the same services as 800s.

While it happens on TSGN/SE, it’s one consistent product - you know what you’re getting - a cloth and a quieter carriage. In GWR, you could buy a ticket from Paddington to Newport or something, and unless you’re an enthusiast who happens to know the 800 workings, it’d be pot luck between a large reclining IET seat with cushion, high speed Wi-Fi and 2+1 seating plus refreshments, or 2+2 ironing board seats identical to those in Standard on the train and narrower than even the standard class seats on the IETs.

At least with the current situation of First Class on IETs only, you know you’re getting a step up from 2nd (regardless of your opinion on the First Class Sophia) when you purchase First Class tickets.

There won't be any first class on the 387s

 

[MaidaVale]

I don’t think that would be acceptable when they’d be operating the same services as 800s.

While it happens on TSGN/SE, it’s one consistent product - you know what you’re getting - a cloth and a quieter carriage. In GWR, you could buy a ticket from Paddington to Newport or something, and unless you’re an enthusiast who happens to know the 800 workings, it’d be pot luck between a large reclining IET seat with cushion, high speed Wi-Fi and 2+1 seating plus refreshments, or 2+2 ironing board seats identical to those in Standard on the train and narrower than even the standard class seats on the IETs.

At least with the current situation of First Class on IETs only, you know you’re getting a step up from 2nd (regardless of your opinion on the First Class Sophia) when you purchase First Class tickets.

I suppose if the Cardiff service was to be switched entirely to 387s and they were fitted with a "south east" style First Class product, the only upside to GWRs Electrostars FC service over that provided by GTR, Southeastern etc would be the usage of the First Class lounges, which are not typically provided with "London" style First Class products.

 

[JN114]

That’s certainly news to the planning teams….

And control…

 

[FGW_DID]

That’s certainly news to the planning teams….

And control…

And the Depot…

 

[RailWonderer]

Southeastern use High Capacity 375/9s on 100 mile journeys day in, day out on journeys way over the 2 hours it takes to go from Cardiff to Paddington. 387s are arguably better than those, so don't see the issue with it at all. Make use of EMUs on entirely electrified routes meaning the Bi-Modes can do more bi-mode/diesel work.

Totally an unfair compairson. There aren't any cities on the Kent coast, and they have never had a proper IC service (at least in recent history). Cardiff is the Welsh capital, it fully deserves a first class offering, with catering and a 125mph service to London. Downgrading to 387s if true is totally unacceptable and if I had to do that service I would absolutely drive instead, even with the cost of fuel.

 

[Dai Corner]

Totally an unfair compairson. There aren't any cities on the Kent coast, and they have never had a proper IC service (at least in recent history). Cardiff is the Welsh capital, it fully deserves a first class offering, with catering and a 125mph service to London. Downgrading to 387s if true is totally unacceptable and if I had to do that service I would absolutely drive instead, even with the cost of fuel.

Or you could wait half an hour for the next IET which will have First Class.

 

[Reliablebeam]

They are used on fast/semi-fast services if you live in Didcot/Reading/Newbury - some services do terminate at Bristol Parkway and Swindon as well in addition to the Cardiff mentioned here. The ride quality is better at 110mph than the class 80x's, at least on the Thames Valley stretch and the VCB noise in my view is much quieter than the 'Desiro' range - which I also like but have a proper 'thu-dunnnk'. To be honest, I prefer seeing 2 x 387 showing up as opposed to 5 car 80x. The lack of catering isn't great but if starting from Paddington there's several places to take bunkers or re-victual before you set off and the toilet provision is good. Given how padded GWR's timetables are, they easily keep intercity timings.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suppose if the Cardiff service was to be switched entirely to 387s and they were fitted with a "south east" style First Class product, the only upside to GWRs Electrostars FC service over that provided by GTR, Southeastern etc would be the usage of the First Class lounges, which are not typically provided with "London" style First Class products.

But just remember it wouldn't be entirely switched to 387s as it would be a half-hourly service with one per hour continuing to Swansea, and obviously that would be an IET. So of the half-hourly service between London and Cardiff, you'd have an hourly 387 and an hourly 80x.

 

[Xavi]

Worth casting an eye back to this thread to see where the 387s are possibly coming from.

Will off peak traffic on the Cotswold Line build up?

mods note - from this thread. Future 802 deployment: 11 9s for hourly Penzance, 8 5s for hourly Plymouth/Paignton/Exeter, and 12 5s on hourly Penzance - Cardiff. Customers won't complain and DfT will welcome the £s saved. Must be enough 800s to cover the remaining traffic - 5s on Oxford /...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Worth casting an eye back to this thread to see where the 387s are coming from.

Will off peak traffic on the Cotswold Line build up?

mods note - from this thread. Future 802 deployment: 11 9s for hourly Penzance, 8 5s for hourly Plymouth/Paignton/Exeter, and 12 5s on hourly Penzance - Cardiff. Customers won't complain and DfT will welcome the £s saved. Must be enough 800s to cover the remaining traffic - 5s on Oxford /...

www.railforums.co.uk

I will just politely remind you that you yourself described the allocation information in the opening post as "my best guess based on available information" rather than something solid. I'm just adding this so no one is misled into thinking that's a definite plan (it involves dedicating twelve 800/0s to CDF-PNZ, for example)

 

[JN114]

There are zero plans to transfer further services in Thames Valley to Elizabeth Line; who wouldn’t have the 345s to take on extra services anyway.

Without anything like that; the 387 fleet is overstretched as it is - Cardiffs all being 387 would need another 8-10 sets.

It’s some imaginative thinking, but given representatives in this thread from Planning, Engineering and Control have all never heard of this “plan”; leads me to believe it really really isn’t happening.

More likely, the train manager has either directly or indirectly been exposed to the speculation in that thread; taken it as gospel fact and then regurgitated it to whomever brought it up in this thread.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Perhaps if the tender GWR put out for thirty four-car EMUs does bring the thirty redundant 379s to the West, they can stick those on the hourly Cardiff services with their nice 2+1 first class and comfortable standard class seats, send the redundant 80x for the permanent crack repairs and onto Cardiff Plymouth Penzance to send the worn out and expensive Castle sets packing, and all while leaving the 387s as they are in the Thames Valley.

But until that happens, and sadly I don’t think it will, it’s all speculation; there is just no evidence to suggest such a move will happen, and there certainly aren’t enough 387s to provide a half-hourly London Didcot, hourly London Newbury, hourly Reading Newbury and hourly London Cardiff fast. Not unless GWR believe four carriage formations will suffice on all of those, and on London Didcot and London Cardiff, they most certainly will not.

There are zero plans to transfer further services in Thames Valley to Elizabeth Line; who wouldn’t have the 345s to take on extra services anyway.

Apparently they don’t even have one single 345 free to knock off the knackered pair of 315 working one AM and PM diagram that could be so easily replaced, let alone taking over more GWR services

 

[MaidaVale]

There are zero plans to transfer further services in Thames Valley to Elizabeth Line; who wouldn’t have the 345s to take on extra services anyway.

Without anything like that; the 387 fleet is overstretched as it is - Cardiffs all being 387 would need another 8-10 sets.

It’s some imaginative thinking, but given representatives in this thread from Planning, Engineering and Control have all never heard of this “plan”; leads me to believe it really really isn’t happening.

More likely, the train manager has either directly or indirectly been exposed to the speculation in that thread; taken it as gospel fact and then regurgitated it to whomever brought it up in this thread.

Yeah, I tend to take information on speculative topics such as this given by Train Managers and/or Drivers with a pinch of salt unless they state like "I was told by the planning department" or something similar. Many may have just found speculative information on a thread similar to this one, and assumed it was just correct information. I had a similar thing with an EMR guard in may last year during the last week of the HSTs, where I was told that they might be returning from that December using scotrail units as they wanted rid of the 180s so badly. I fairly quickly took the information with a pinch of strong salt after the words "heard it from some guys in the depot" were mentioned. Of course, the time window long passed and nothing ever came of it.

Trying my best to avoid going too far off topic there, But it's a good example of how taking things from staff that aren't likely to be directly involved in the process until introduction begins as gospel, is not an advisable thing to do (unless in a specific thread marked as clear speculation), in order to not get your hopes up/down for something unlikely to happen, and to stop the spread of misinformation.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is an updates thread; any posts of a speculative nature are to be posted exclusively in the Speculative Discussion section please.

Many thanks

 

[DanNCL]

387s running to Cardiff is a good example of why Intercity services shouldn’t be ran by operators that are also responsible for London/South East commuter services.

Imagine if Great Northern branded services had been merged into LNER - you’d have had 387s able to do worse than Cardiff they’d have potentially been able to run as far as Newcastle.

This doesn't happen literally every 5 minutes. It happens going in and out of neutral sections. If you want to know the location of neutral sections, it is very educational.

It all depends on where the neutral sections are. I don’t know about the GWML, but there are certainly parts of the ECML where you will encounter a neutral section every 5 minutes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

and onto Cardiff Plymouth Penzance to send the worn out and expensive Castle sets packing, and all while leaving the 387s as they are in the Thames Valley.

An 800 is pretty much as expensive as a castle HST to operate! It also needs a lot of crew training for this to happen at a cost.

 

[fodphil]

Although this is clearly a reduction in comfort for passengers, this would allow a fleet cascade within GWR and ultimately allow HSTs to be pushed out.

I understand that the Angel leased HSTs are staying till 2025